When in Revelation the Rapture will occur

[SIZE=10pt]The Church Triumphant – the Bride of Christ:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Will there be a time when the Church of the Living God, purchased by the blood of His Son, shines in purity and power before the Return of Jesus? The early Church had the right teaching and received the power of the Holy Spirit but sadly this did not last, as man inspired doctrines and traditions came in. But historians have been amazed at the ability of the true Christian Church to rejuvenate out of decay and to repeatedly revive throughout the ages. A holy remnant has always been in existence. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]There are three main interpretations of the future fulfilment of the Church’s destiny: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]First[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], that it all will finally happen in heaven, after a ’rapture’. - The idea of a pre-wrath rapture or any removal of people to heaven before the Return does not fit with Biblical information. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Second[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], it happens at the moment of the Return, as an instantaneous transformation of the character of His chosen people. - This is illogical and un-scriptural. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Third[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], the Church is ready, prepared as His holy Bride, to greet their Lord Jesus with the shout of: ‘[/SIZE]Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!’ That there will be such a time on earth, when the Church: all who love the Lord and keep His commands, will ‘shine as jewels in His Land’, Zechariah 9:16, before the Return, is prophesied throughout the Old and New Testaments. With many of those OT prophesies, for example Isaiah 54, that tells of the restoration of His people, accepted and re-settled back into all of the cleared and cleansed holy Land, Isaiah 62:1-5, the assumption has been that Jesus would be present by then. But Isaiah 54:10 & 16 talks about the Destroyer coming and the earth shaking, also Isaiah 30:25-30 tells of the Lord’s judgement of the nations with a devouring fire, but on that Day, the Lord will protect and save His people. These and many other prophesies match with the Sixth seal, the Day of the Lord’s wrath, an event that will happen years before the glorious Return.

[SIZE=10pt]In Ephesians 4:11-16, Paul lists the gifts that the ascended Christ gave to His Church. Their purpose is to build up the worldwide body until His Return. In the early chapters of Acts, we read how, at that time, the Church had a real sense of unity, ‘[/SIZE]they were of one heart and soul’, and they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. The true Church before His Return will again have a complete unity of doctrine and agreement of belief. John 17:21
[SIZE=10pt]Hebrews 8:10-12 [/SIZE]In the latter days I shall set My Laws in their hearts, they will not need to say: ‘know the Lord’, for all will understand the true Way of life. I shall forgive all their sins.
[SIZE=10pt]They too, will be given the Holy Spirit at the great regeneration and rejoining of Ezekiel 37.[/SIZE] Joel 2:28-29, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Isaiah 59:21, Colossians 1:1-12
[SIZE=10pt]Ezekiel 11:17-20[/SIZE] I shall gather My people from among the nations, bring you from the places to which you have been dispersed and give the holy Land to you. You will abandon all your unrighteous practices when I give you a one-ness of heart and a new Spirit. You will be My people and I will be your God. Joel 2:29, 2 Thess. 1:10 [By the same way that He was to ancient Israel.]
[SIZE=10pt]In the last days, before the Return, His people will live as a ‘[/SIZE]light to the nations’, Isaiah 42:6. From them the 144,000 will be selected soon after the Sixth Seal, Rev. 7:1-14, to go out in pairs to the nations, proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Luke 10:1-11 is the precursor to this. Joel 2:27 states ’You will know I am present in the holy Land’…. The Shekinah Glory will return to the new Temple. Ezekiel 43:4
[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 7:9-14 describes the righteous Church, from all races, tribes and languages, gathered in the holy Land, but note in verse 3, there is a time period of calm, that is: the Seventh seal-about a ½ hour in heaven= 15/20 years on earth, before the Great Tribulation trumpet and bowl punishments take place. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]During those few years, when the Lord’s holy Christian people of His Church, will be living in all of the holy Land in peace and prosperity, the rest of the nations will recover from the devastation of the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. They will form a One World Government, with ten divisions, each headed by a President. Soon, a charismatic leader will rise and take over as a dictator. He will go to Beulah and negotiate a seven year treaty of peace with them. This marks the commencement of the 70[/SIZE]th year of Daniels prophecy. At the mid-point, he will attack and conquer Beulah and place his own image in the new Temple. Sadly, many will allow this, Isaiah 28:14-15, but the faithful will be resolute and will stand firm during this testing time. Daniel 11:30-34
[SIZE=10pt]Then, during the 3½ year Great Tribulation, those true faithful ones, the ‘woman’ of Rev. 12:13-16, will be flown to a place of safety. After all these prophesied events, the Lord Jesus will Return for His ‘bride’ - the Holy Church, gathered ‘[/SIZE]from the earths farthest places’ - Matthew 24:31, and to commence His Millennial reign. Revelation 19:5-9

bbyrd009 said:

well then, imo you have to rectify how you can both be "the Body of Christ," and also be looking for a Bodily return.

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I really think you're mixing up word definitions here and blurring them together so they mean the same thing.

1. Then entire structure of an organism, whether plant, animal or human being. "He felt that his body was on fire."
2. A group of person associated by some common tie or occupation and regarded as an entity. "The whole student body filed out of the auditorium."

Just because we are the body of Christ does not mean that Christ is bodily on the earth right now. Really.
There are over a dozen definitions for 'body' @ Visual Thesarus - dot-com.

From the guy who still insists the sun blows up on a day when God heals the wounds He has inflicted (Isa 30:26)

keras said:

1 Thess 4:5-17 is a prophecy about the physical Return of Jesus to earth for His Millennium reign.

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No, that is not mentioned by Paul.
Paul is talking about the order of the Resurrection of the Dead and the Rapture.
He doesn't write at all about Jesus' Millennium Reign at this point.

keras said:

He is accompanied by the angelic armies of heaven and brings the souls of all the martyrs since Stephen, including the 2 Witnesses, with Him.

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Paul does not say that either in 1Th 4, nor does he write that in the applicable verse: 1Th 3:13.
As to Stephen, the Martyrs are not mentioned at all by Paul in this letter or his second to the Thessalonians.

keras said:

transported like Philip was, to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem.

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Again this has no Scriptural support; it is some peoples' conclusion, and they are a distinct minority in that regard.

keras said:

Marcus makes two critical errors:
1/ A rapture to heaven for all true believing Christians before anything bad happens. Such a thing is never prophesied and living humans cannot go to heaven.

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Bad? As in the Great Tribulation nearly wiping out the Elect?
LOL

Before you start to criticize, you might try to understand another's view.
As you so incorrectly understand the Bible - I have little hope you'll ever be to look honestly at any thinking that is not your own.

We are not destined for God's Wrath - and that is in Scripture more than once.

keras said:

Marcus makes two critical errors:
2/ Shifting the Sixth Seal to happen at the Return. This is impossible, as the wrath of God is completed after the 7 Bowls. Rev 15:1

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The sixth Seal does include the precursor sun/moon/star event of the Day of the Lord - which Jesus said first would come before His Return.

That we also see a Great Multitude in Heaven that conform to the Elect, having washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb, we can conclude that they represent the Elect Jesus said would be gathered.

It's only impossible when you insist on a "last day" Rescue. But then that would violate two things: the Great Tribulation being shortened, and the "unknowable" aspect of the Day of the Lord.

Marcus, would you please give us the scripture where Jesus says He will gather the Elect. And exactly where He gathers them to.

I know that John prophesied in Matthew 3:12, the Jesus will come and gather the good grain into His barn and burn up the chaff. I see this as; at the Return of Jesus, He gathers His people that remain to where He is, Matthew 24:31, in Jerusalem and He destroys the attacking armies by His sword of fire. Revelation 19:17-21

keras says that no one gets to Heaven.
​That's his point in asking; he'll ask and then deny.

keras misuses Scripture to say no one gets to Heaven when it says no one can - on their own power - get to Heaven.

The Greek active voice is used when the subject (noun: person: one) does the action (verb: go).
​The English translates this as: "no one can go to Heaven."
"can" is their ability to do the action.

This does not mean that no one can ever BE in Heaven; it just states that they have no power or ability to get their on their own accord.

Here is John 3:13.
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."

"one has ascended" is in the active voice.
​Jesus is saying no person has the ability to ascend.
​That's pretty plain because with the exception of flight, no one can "ascend" at all.

But what about Enoch and Elijah?
​Didn't they ascend?
Yes, but not of their own power.
That is the point of the Greek active voice.

In Revelation 4:1, John is told to "come up here."
​John lacks the ability to do that.
​It is done for him.

And it is in chapters 4 & 5 of the book of Revelation that John reports on everything he sees in Heaven, which is "up" there.
In chapter 6, John reports on the opening of the Seals.
Only when the sixth Seal is opened, do we see the precursor sign for the Day of the Lord.

Which is also in the Olivet Discourse Jesus gave.
And in Matthew, following that is the Return of the Lord,
​and next is the gathering of the Elect.

Going back to the Revelation's sixth Seal as a multiple account - giving a different perspective of the same event: the Day of the Lord -
Then is the sealing of the Firsrfruit (of the Harvest). The 144,000 represent the first of what will be harvested.
Next is the arrival - in Heaven - of the Great Multitude - who come out of the Great Tribulation - which Jesus said would happen in the Olivet Discourse - right before the Day of the Lord.

In a parallel account to Revelation chapter 6's sixth Seal, the detailed one 'seven' of Revelation chapters 13-16:
After the midpoint abomination and two laws that make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect that it has to be shortened -
We again see the 144,000
​Then the three Angels,
​And then the Harvest from the clouds of the wheat in the field.
Immediately after that (by half an hour from the Seal/Scroll chronology) - we see the first Trumpet's burning in the field of the tares.

The Elect (believing Christians) are gathered before they are wiped out by the Great Tribulation.
​They are taken to Heaven, joining the Dead in Christ from all time - now numbering so great that no one can count them: the Great Multitude.
​Then God's Wrath comes, the Wrath the second and third Angels told the (wicked) world was coming.
​Which is why they're cowering in their bunkers (caves) when Jesus comes.

But He's not coming for them - at that precise moment when He Returns.
​He's coming to Rescue us.
And then He's going to beat up all those who tried to kill us.
Go Jesus!

Marcus O'Reillius said:

I really think you're mixing up word definitions here and blurring them together so they mean the same thing.

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well, without putting too fine a point on it, couldn't i use the same accusation?

Just because we are the body of Christ does not mean that Christ is bodily on the earth right now. Really.

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But really, it very well could mean that, and since it does, but that just destroys your theology, wadr i suggest that you guys at least contemplate this, ok.

Understand I AM

but "when in the Rev will the Rapture occur" (in which the correct answer is "never") should have been my clue, wadr, and i notice at least i am seeing it sooner now, even if i am still pretty slow on the uptake there, in my desire to uncover Word, which "Rapture" of course conceals quite nicely. You might reflect upon Ezekiel's "pillows" or "soft landings," there at "Rapture," and note that it came from "women" then, and we know that the doctrine arose again, just yesterday, so to speak, late 19th century, from another "woman," we still have her name, even, so one might reflect upon how pastors who would not endorse a "female" pastor in their midst somehow whole-heartedly endorse a doctrine that came from a female pastor, never-minding the symbology, even, just sticking to the physical realities.

Marcus, you haven't given us the scripture that says; God will take His people to heaven.
You believe He will do that, why would He? If you do believe that, you need to explain how such a thing could happen without testing and judgement first?

The rescue, as prophesied, is to where He is. And that will be on earth, simple really and the truth as written.

bbyrd, I assume you are talking about Margaret McDonald? She had the vision of going to heaven and the whole 'rapture cult' has taken off from that false idea. Paul said in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that people would believe fables and we certainly see it today!

amen

bbyrd009 said:

well, without putting too fine a point on it, couldn't i use the same accusation?

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Well just to argumentative, you can, but you have absolutely no foundation for saying Jesus is present on the earth because we constitute the "body" of Christ.

keras said:

Marcus, you haven't given us the scripture that says; God will take His people to heaven.

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None that you'll accept.
But then again, you're not God so as to sit in judgment of what is and what is not.

Pearls and swine come to mind here.
You still won't recant your error of saying the sun burns the earth on a day that God heals whom He inflicted - Isa 30:26.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

Well just to argumentative, you can, but you have absolutely no foundation for saying Jesus is present on the earth because we constitute the "body" of Christ.

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so iow to you that is just some phrase of convenience that is used in Scripture and it doesn't really mean anything, or what, exactly? If God is the Head of Christ, and Cornelius got Jesus' "carcass," and not His "corpse," two different words in the original, and Paul tells us that we are in fact "the Body of Christ," isn't it fairer to say that you are the one with no foundation?

(pearls and swine come to mind, here...)

Marcus O'Reillius said:

None that you'll accept.
But then again, you're not God so as to sit in judgment of what is and what is not.

Pearls and swine come to mind here.
You still won't recant your error of saying the sun burns the earth on a day that God heals whom He inflicted - Isa 30:26.

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No I won't accept any false teaching and the rapture is false because there is no scriptural proof for such a thing.

Your inability to understand prophesies like Isaiah 30:25-30, is sadly evident.
However when the Lord does send His fiery wrath onto the earth, you and all who have read what I have presented from the Prophetic Word, will know what it is and what to do.

Marcus O said:

.

The Elect (believing Christians) are gathered before they are wiped out by the Great Tribulation.
​They are taken to Heaven, joining the Dead in Christ from all

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Even the greek language is against you.

The phrase in 7:14 they are these who have come , is not the original phrase.

In the original language as John wrote it down, there is a present participle that means 'they are coming".

In other words ......They came, they will come, they keep on coming till the last one has arrived.

The rapture is meant to be a single event not a continual event.

How anyone still believes in prewrath and even pre trib is beyond biblical understanding.

Further you seem to ignore the fact the cosmic signs as well as the earth signs carries well into the trumpets before Christs return as its been prophesied.

bbyrd009 said:

so iow to you that is just some phrase of convenience that is used in Scripture and it doesn't really mean anything, or what, exactly?

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What we have here is a failure to communicate.

As to the other two... their poor scholarship relegates their posts to meaninglessness. They have an agenda and like the media, will say anything to advance their cause.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

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well, i agree. I am of the Body of Christ, and i have met Him in the Air, and i don't believe Paul's referral to us as "the Body" should be taken as anything other than literal, which it strikes me funny that Literalists get all spiritual at this one, when it suits them iow, wadr.

bbyrd009 said:

I am of the Body of Christ, and i have met Him in the Air,

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You are not the body of Christ.
​We are the body of Christ.
I have a rule of not engaging people who have imaginary occurrences.
​Goodbye!

Marcus O'Reillius said:

You are not the body of Christ.
​We are the body of Christ.
I have a rule of not engaging people who have imaginary occurrences.
​Goodbye!

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He never implied he was the only member of the body of Christ....you completely misread his intentions.....

Marcus O said:

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

As to the other two... their poor scholarship relegates their posts to meaninglessness. They have an agenda and like the media, will say anything to advance their cause.

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Your doctrine has no commonality with the actual greek words used to support the nonsense of a rapture in Rev 7....nor does your doctrine have anything in common with hebrew eschatology nor does it even fit with the jewish wedding theme....nor do you have any evidence of a literal resurrection or rapture to occure in Rev 7 that can be proven without any assumptions.

Your entire dictrine is nothing more than assumptions

hey, my doctrines are all assumptions, too. that is a good definition of doctrines, or beliefs. Hence Love believes all things. I like to compare it to a bunch of little kids, debating where babies come from. Which of course most of them aren't debating at all, they are doing their very best to make their opinion true, just like when i got in a fight because somebody told me that daddy put his penis in mommy, and i knew, for a fact, that mommy ate a brownie, and then a baby grew in her tummy. This also explains why there is no doctrine that can be proven from Scripture that does not have a competing doctrine that also has support, and can be equally proven the same way.

bbyrd009 said:

well, i agree. I am of the Body of Christ

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but see, we read what we want to read. Me, too. My Cain is alive and well, too, and i can either deny it, and pretend those verses apply to someone else, or get comfortable with it, and put Cain where he belongs.