When did Jesus receive the Revelation scroll/book?

[6 Stories]

Well, Mt Zion is on Earth, near Jerusalem. There are no mountains in heaven.

Verse 2 clearly makes it clear a voice came out of heaven so John is not in heaven when he hears it. John is on Earth seeing people on a mountain.

He hears harpers playing and singing from heaven, and only the 144k can learn that song who are on Earth.

Everything else on earth is according to the pattern in heaven. Why not the mountain?

 

[6 Stories]

Impossible.
The dead in Christ rise FIRST.
Rev 14 has 2 gatherings before your postrib rapture.
That means a postrib rapture can not happen .

Rev 14:1-5 are the firstfruits of the resurrection/rapture.
Rev 14:14-16 is the rest of the postrib resurrection/rapture.
All of Israel's harvests had a firstfruits portion that came before the rest of the harvest.

'The dead in Christ rise first' is a reference to them coming out of their graves and standing next to those who are alive at that time.
Then, both the dead who came out of their graves and those who are alive at that time will 'rise up together' into the air to meet the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

Everything else on earth is according to the pattern in heaven. Why not the mountain?

Heaven is not a replication of what is on Earth or vice versa. Mountains are rocks and dirt, often a volcano. Those things do not exist in heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

Logically, this doesn't make sense. If Jesus was always there, he also always had the book.

No. The book was/will be received within the time frame of the Prince to come.

God always had the book. It was always sealed, until the time of the Second Coming was initiated.

Parts of Revelation are viewed from earth in earth time. Parts of Revelation are viewed from heaven from the perspective of heaven. Sometimes in the same chapter.

For instance, chapter 7 starts out on earth with the sealing of the 144k on earth. But the scene of the redeemed multitude has been the heavenly scene from the heavenly perspective, which has actually been 2 millenia on earth. On earth events take place in real earthly time. In heaven it is from the perspective of that moment or even 30 minutes.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you making a distinction between those Jesus gathers at the final harvest and the rest of the saints throughout time?

Yes, those after the 5th Seal remain on the earth. Those in heaven remain in heaven. There are sons of God in heaven since the Flood. They were created on the 6th day. They did not get involved in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are mentioned in Job. They did not keep living on the earth after the Flood. The same with the glorified church. They remain until the New Jerusalem comes to earth.

Why do you say this is the entire church when the text is specific to martyrs?

Why would God only deal with martyrs separately from others in heaven, since Abel was technically martyred? Are there seperate divisions of souls in heaven? Paul did not distinguish between martyrs and non martyrs. John just points out martyrs are looking for vengeance. Why would those who died naturally want vengeance on humans. The point was the judgment on the wicked who take pleasure in hurting other humans. The Great Tribulation had not even started at the 5th Seal. Those in chapter 7 also include Abel who was martyred but what tribulation? The OT prophets faced tribulation from wicked people. There has been great tribulation throughout the church age. Not the same as Jacob's trouble.

There will be the glorified church in Paradise as always from Abel to the Second Coming.

Those harvested after the Second Coming live on earth for the next 1,000 years. There are still nations on the new earth. They live on the earth, while those glorified live in the New Jerusalem.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rev 14:1-5 are the firstfruits of the resurrection/rapture.
Rev 14:14-16 is the rest of the postrib resurrection/rapture.
All of Israel's harvests had a firstfruits portion that came before the rest of the harvest.

'The dead in Christ rise first' is a reference to them coming out of their graves and standing next to those who are alive at that time.
Then, both the dead who came out of their graves and those who are alive at that time will 'rise up together' into the air to meet the Lord.

The 144k are ethnic Jews.
That chapter ,rev 14, debunks postrib rapture, but go ahead and make the 144k something they are not.
I totally understand you painted yourself into a corner.

...and no, they are DEFINATELY not rapture firstfruits.
They are firstfruit JEWS, exactly as the bible refutes your inventions.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They are singing the song of the redeemed. They are not the redeemed.
In Rev 4:11 they gave God glory for creation. They were not the created and they didn't know God through creation, but those who were redeemed through faith in a creator were not in heaven.

When the redeemed are in heaven, they speak and sing for themselves.
The following examples are all after Jesus has returned to heaven as the slain Lamb. This act prepared heaven for everyone of faith.

Rev 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
Rev 7:10 "And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."
Rev 14:3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."
Rev 15:2-4
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Rev 19:1-3
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Thank you

You just once again showed I was right.

it is the redeemed singing. if the redeemed are not there yet. Their would be no song of the redeemed singing about God redeeming them

 

[ewq1938]

it is the redeemed singing. if the redeemed are not there yet. Their would be no song of the redeemed singing about God redeeming them

Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


It says the 144k redeemed are learning the song not singing. The ones with harps play harps and sing as happens elsewhere in the book.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Here 24 elders play harps and sing a new song, just as different harpers play and sing a new song in Rev 14 while the 144k are learning that new song being sung to them. These 24 elders also are kings and priests. It is implied then that once the 144k learn the new song being sung to them, that they would also become kings and priests like the 24 elders that sing and harp. The elders were also redeemed, the same wording used for the 144k in chp 14.

 

[6 Stories]

Heaven is not a replication of what is on Earth or vice versa. Mountains are rocks and dirt, often a volcano. Those things do not exist in heaven.

Hebrews 12:22 " But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,"

Is this mount Sion in heaven?

 

[6 Stories]

No. The book was/will be received within the time frame of the Prince to come.

God always had the book. It was always sealed, until the time of the Second Coming was initiated.

I still don't understand how I can read a book that is sealed until the time of the Second Coming.

This doesn't make sense and it is in contrast to the 7 thunders which are not revealed because they are still sealed.

Parts of Revelation are viewed from earth in earth time. Parts of Revelation are viewed from heaven from the perspective of heaven. Sometimes in the same chapter.

For instance, chapter 7 starts out on earth with the sealing of the 144k on earth. But the scene of the redeemed multitude has been the heavenly scene from the heavenly perspective, which has actually been 2 millenia on earth. On earth events take place in real earthly time. In heaven it is from the perspective of that moment or even 30 minutes.

I believe the events take place in a sequential order whether they are on earth or in heaven.

For instance, the 144k on earth are sealed before the people in the heavenly scene come out of the great tribulation on earth. Just because we have been waiting 2 millennia for both events to take place on earth, doesn't mean they won't occur in the order specified. When prophetic events are ordered, they always take place according to the order predicted.

 

[6 Stories]

Yes, those after the 5th Seal remain on the earth. Those in heaven remain in heaven. There are sons of God in heaven since the Flood. They were created on the 6th day. They did not get involved in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are mentioned in Job. They did not keep living on the earth after the Flood. The same with the glorified church. They remain until the New Jerusalem comes to earth.

I don't know what you mean. If a saint dies on earth today, his spirit still lives in heaven. I believe his body will be resurrected from the grave and lifted up to his spirit in the clouds when Jesus comes. This is the way it has been since Pentecost.

Jude 14 " And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"
Rev 19:14 " And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

These saints follow Jesus to earth when he comes. This event is 1000 years before the New Jerusalem comes to a new earth.

Why would God only deal with martyrs separately from others in heaven, since Abel was technically martyred?

Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The rest of the people in heaven were not killed for their faith. We don't know what they want to happen on earth. We do know that the martyrs will be avenged. Rev 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Are there seperate divisions of souls in heaven? Paul did not distinguish between martyrs and non martyrs. John just points out martyrs are looking for vengeance. Why would those who died naturally want vengeance on humans.

They wouldn't. That's why they are not mentioned.

The point was the judgment on the wicked who take pleasure in hurting other humans. The Great Tribulation had not even started at the 5th Seal.

I believe the 5th seal began at Pentecost, so I agree that the GT had not even started.

Those in chapter 7 also include Abel who was martyred but what tribulation? The OT prophets faced tribulation from wicked people. There has been great tribulation throughout the church age. Not the same as Jacob's trouble.

Those in chapter 7 refer to a future period of 3.5 years, the period of GT. Neither Abel nor anyone else would be in this group.
It appears that groups in heaven are divided in these heavenly scenes.

There will be the glorified church in Paradise as always from Abel to the Second Coming.

Those harvested after the Second Coming live on earth for the next 1,000 years.

The harvest removes a mortal body from its connection to the earth. I don't know what you mean.

There are still nations on the new earth.

Agreed.

They live on the earth, while those glorified live in the New Jerusalem.

Rev 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

There are 2 groups of resurrected saints at the time of Jesus' return.
Group 1 returned with Jesus to earth and sit upon thrones and judgment was given unto them.
Group 2 was killed after the GT, during the time of the 7 bowls of God's wrath, when heaven was closed.

Rev 15:8 "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

God told these people not to worry in Rev 14:13 " And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."(Don't worry if you die when heaven is closed, you will still be part of the 1st resurrection.)

New Jerusalem will not have anyone in it from this present earth until after the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. Anyone that will be in heaven will follow Jesus when he returns.

 

[6 Stories]

The 144k are ethnic Jews.

I agree. They are sealed which means that they have accepted Jesus as their Messiah.

That chapter ,rev 14, debunks postrib rapture, but go ahead and make the 144k something they are not.
I totally understand you painted yourself into a corner.

There are 6 chronological stories in the book of Revelation that end at the time of Jesus' return. Revelation 14:20 is the end of a story that began in Rev 12:7.

Rev 14:14 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle." This is Jesus returning in the clouds.

Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
This is Jesus killing those armies that gather to fight against him when He returns.

The period of GT is mentioned in Rev 12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
The GT is also shown in Rev 13, with the time frame given in verse 5. "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Only after the GT has ended does the period of God's wrath as listed in the 7 bowls begin. Jesus returns at the time of the 7th bowl, the last plague, which is found 6 times in chapter 6-19 of the Revelation.

...and no, they are DEFINATELY not rapture firstfruits.
They are firstfruit JEWS, exactly as the bible refutes your inventions.

They are both and there is much evidence.

They are also the 2 witnesses of Rev 11, 2 candlesticks which symbolize 2 churches, comprised of 144,000 Messianic Jews.

These represent Elijah who will come into the homes of Jews celebrating Passover on the night before the start of the GT.
Jews set a place for Elijah on Passover. They also represent Moses who led the Jews away from Pharoah due to the Passover plague. Jews will flee from AC just as they fled from Pharoah as stated in Rev 12:14 above because of the Passover warning of these 144,000.

These will supernaturally fight against AC, but will lose. 3.5 years later, when they arrive in heaven, which is shown in Rev 14:1-5, they will be seen from earth during Tabernacles. This is when the sun, moon, and stars are darkened and heaven is opened, immediately after the GT. This is the reason the book of Jonah is read on the Day of Atonement. These are the sign of Jesus in heaven. These will die, be resurrected, and ascend into heaven just like Jesus did. These are the firstfruits of the resurrection/rapture of everyone else which is pictured later in Rev 14.

 

[ewq1938]

Hebrews 12:22 " But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,"

Is this mount Sion in heaven?

No. Mountains are made of dirt and rocks, which don't exist in heaven. Mount Zion is on Earth, near Jerusalem.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Try again

Rev 5:
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

It’s important to note, some of the best manuscripts omit “us” in verse 10 and the majority textual critiques favor “they will reign on earth”. Not “we”.

Some issues:
the cherubs (4 living beast) sing with the elders and cherubs cannot be redeemed.

The elders are in heaven before the lamb is in heaven.

John see’s the entirety of the throne and where are all the apostles that died before the vision? They arnt there.

The word ekklesia (church) is absent Therefore the church is not in heaven. A failed reason I only added because I find it funny when people use it to try and prove the church isn’t there in the rest of Revelation

Paul quotes Isa 25 regarding the resurrection which happens during the time of “in this mountain” and that kingdom is also quoted in 2 Tim 4:1. That makes a resurrection happening before a kingdom at odds.

There are only 2 resurrections in scripture. The first resurrection is the one we long for and there can be no resurrection before it as the word protos won’t allow it. Rev 20:5

If you place the resurrection in Ch 4:1, who is the church? John or the elders? If it’s the elders, how is John spiritualized as the church and no where else in scripture?

If the resurrection happens in 4:1, it must be right before God’s wrath but that is at odds with the 5th seal, the 6th seal, the “hurt not” in Rev 7:3 and the destruction of those that destroy the earth in God’s outpoured wrath Rev 11:18

It also doesn’t explain Rev 5:8
Whose prayers do the elders hold if they are the church? It isn’t pre-Trib saints because the first seal isn’t open yet.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Any thoughts about the timing of Jesus (not John) receiving the Revelation scroll?

My opinion is that Christ doesn’t wait over 2k years to be sung a song and receive the scroll. Otherwise, we are still looking for someone to be found worthy to receive it Rev 4:5. Christ was worthy after the cross and there’s no reason he’d wait to receive it as it’s evident that his ascension long ago is shown to John in Rev 5:6 as entering heaven and that the spirits of God in Rev 4:5 were under the mosaic law are now Christ’s under a new covenant in Rev 5:6

 

[ewq1938]

It’s important to note, some of the best manuscripts omit “us” in verse 10 and the majority textual critiques favor “they will reign on earth”. Not “we”.

What about the other words like us and our?

And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”


"we" would be consistent with the other wording.

Either way, the reign will be on the Earth with other passages confirming the reign is over the nations after the second coming.

 

[Timtofly]

I still don't understand how I can read a book that is sealed until the time of the Second Coming.

This doesn't make sense and it is in contrast to the 7 thunders which are not revealed because they are still sealed.

I believe the events take place in a sequential order whether they are on earth or in heaven.

For instance, the 144k on earth are sealed before the people in the heavenly scene come out of the great tribulation on earth. Just because we have been waiting 2 millennia for both events to take place on earth, doesn't mean they won't occur in the order specified. When prophetic events are ordered, they always take place according to the order predicted.

The Lamb's Book of Life is still sealed. Not the book of Revelation.

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

John did not write them down and then sealed the information. He prevented the information from being made known, by not writing the Thunders into the book of Revelation. This does not mean the 7 Thunders will not happen. It means we don't know what is going to happen when they do sound.

What people do you think are currently in heaven? It sounds like you are post trib, and they are not sealed like the 144k, but no one can enter heaven until after some period of great tribulation.

Do you think you are not sealed, and if you physically die, cannot be sealed until physically resurrected? How does that make sense. If you are sealed and physically die won't you be in heaven immediately? Where else would you go, if you are sealed? You make it sound like one can only be sealed until a physical resurrection after the great tribulation. Because you say only the sealed 144k can go to heaven during the great tribulation.

John is not predicting Revelation 7:14

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The person John was talking to said those words: they came out of the tribulation the great. Meaning they had been doing that in the past. Not that they are about to come out in the near future.

John saw them after they had come out at the same time he saw 144k on earth being sealed to enter a time of tribulation. John told us the 144k are being sealed to protect them from the Trumpets and Thunders. The person told John those in heaven had been coming out of tribulation.

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Why would John see people safely in heaven, before this time of tribulation, and also before the tribulation even started, if they were still on earth after this point?

You would be saying that only the 144k are sealed, but every one in heaven were not sealed, and even died during the Trumpets and Thunders, even though John saw them in heaven prior to the Trumpets and Thunders. John does not call the Trumpets and Thunders the tribulation the great. That was from the mouth of the one speaking to John. The person did not say they will come out of the tribulation the great. He said they were those who came out of the tribulation the great.

That multitude was the entire church body. Not just a small group outside of a larger church body.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't know what you mean. If a saint dies on earth today, his spirit still lives in heaven. I believe his body will be resurrected from the grave and lifted up to his spirit in the clouds when Jesus comes. This is the way it has been since Pentecost.

Jude 14 " And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"
Rev 19:14 " And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

These saints follow Jesus to earth when he comes. This event is 1000 years before the New Jerusalem comes to a new earth.

Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The rest of the people in heaven were not killed for their faith. We don't know what they want to happen on earth. We do know that the martyrs will be avenged. Rev 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

They wouldn't. That's why they are not mentioned.

I believe the 5th seal began at Pentecost, so I agree that the GT had not even started.

Those in chapter 7 refer to a future period of 3.5 years, the period of GT. Neither Abel nor anyone else would be in this group.
It appears that groups in heaven are divided in these heavenly scenes.

The harvest removes a mortal body from its connection to the earth. I don't know what you mean.

Agreed.

Rev 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

There are 2 groups of resurrected saints at the time of Jesus' return.
Group 1 returned with Jesus to earth and sit upon thrones and judgment was given unto them.
Group 2 was killed after the GT, during the time of the 7 bowls of God's wrath, when heaven was closed.

Rev 15:8 "And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

God told these people not to worry in Rev 14:13 " And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."(Don't worry if you die when heaven is closed, you will still be part of the 1st resurrection.)

New Jerusalem will not have anyone in it from this present earth until after the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. Anyone that will be in heaven will follow Jesus when he returns.

How can you say the 5th Seal happened at Pentecost? The 5th Seal is the culmination of the church, not the start. You don't have access to nor control over your spirit. You have the Holy Spirit as a replacement for your spirit.

The 5th Seal is the rejoining of soul and body with the spirit. Your soul is not your spirit, but separate from both soul and body. When you put on your spirit, you will shine like a star, as bright as the sun. That is what Jesus showed to Peter, James, and John on the mount of Transfiguration. 1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

At the Second Coming, the 5th and 6th Seal, we will appear just like Jesus did on the mount of Transfiguration when the spirit is put on over the body. Pentecost was the giving of the Holy Spirit, not one's individual spirit.

So the multitude in chapter 7 is the church, and they started to physically arrive in Paradise, Resurrection Sunday as the firstfruits of the church now in Heaven. The entire OT redeemed were removed from Abraham's bosom, and entered Paradise. They have been entering throughout the tribulation the great since then.

In Abraham's bosom they were just a soul. The physical death and resurrection of Jesus was the moment the soul was joined to the physical body in that heavenly city known as Paradise. They have been serving God day and night in that heavenly temple.

The soul and spirit were not joined in the first century. The soul was allowed back into God's permanent incorruptible physical body as a son of God.

New Jerusalem does not even exist yet. It will not exist until current creation is brought to an end.

 

[6 Stories]

My opinion is that Christ doesn’t wait over 2k years to be sung a song and receive the scroll. Otherwise, we are still looking for someone to be found worthy to receive it Rev 4:5. Christ was worthy after the cross and there’s no reason he’d wait to receive it as it’s evident that his ascension long ago is shown to John in Rev 5:6 as entering heaven and that the spirits of God in Rev 4:5 were under the mosaic law are now Christ’s under a new covenant in Rev 5:6

I really appreciate your comments on this subject!

 

[6 Stories]

The Lamb's Book of Life is still sealed. Not the book of Revelation.

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

John did not write them down and then sealed the information. He prevented the information from being made known, by not writing the Thunders into the book of Revelation. This does not mean the 7 Thunders will not happen. It means we don't know what is going to happen when they do sound.

I agree with you on these things.

What people do you think are currently in heaven? It sounds like you are post trib, and they are not sealed like the 144k, but no one can enter heaven until after some period of great tribulation.

Everyone who died and belongs to God is now in heaven. OT saints went to heaven after Jesus' ascension as the slain Lamb in Rev 5. NT saints go to heaven upon death. Jesus will come back to earth during the last plague, the 7th bowl of wrath, which is pictured 6 times in chapters 6-19 of the Revelation. At that time, whatever is left of your bones will come out of the ground (resurrection) and will go up in the clouds (rapture) to be joined with your spirit which is coming down from heaven with Jesus.

The 144k are the first of those who resurrect from the dead and are raptured (Like Jesus). Unlike everyone else, they go all the way to the 3rd heaven. All of the rest will be resurrected then raptured into the air as Jesus will have left heaven and will be in earth's clouds at that time.

Heaven is closed during the time that the 7 bowls are poured out, which is after the GT has ended. These will be part of the 1st resurrection, even though their spirits will not have ascended into heaven with Jesus when they die.

Do you think you are not sealed, and if you physically die, cannot be sealed until physically resurrected? How does that make sense. If you are sealed and physically die won't you be in heaven immediately? Where else would you go, if you are sealed? You make it sound like one can only be sealed until a physical resurrection after the great tribulation. Because you say only the sealed 144k can go to heaven during the great tribulation.

Being sealed is accepting the Holy Spirit. All Christians have this seal. It is our betrothal to Jesus which began at Pentecost. OT saints were betrothed to God at Mt. Sinai, when the 10 commandments were read to Israel. The marriage is completed with both groups at the time of Jesus' return. The spirits of both OT and NT saints will return to earth from heaven with Jesus. The bodies of both OT and NT saints will come out of their graves and rise into heaven to be joined with their returning spirits. The 144k will already have their resurrected bodies when they return, just like Jesus.

The ascension of the 2 witnesses, which are the 144k, is the supernatural event that God uses to cut short or end the 42 months of GT. These are the last of those who enter heaven before the 7 bowls of God's wrath are poured out. The spirits and bodies of the 144k rise into heaven at the end of the GT.

John is not predicting Revelation 7:14

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The person John was talking to said those words: they came out of the tribulation the great. Meaning they had been doing that in the past. Not that they are about to come out in the near future.

I agree.

John saw them after they had come out at the same time he saw 144k on earth being sealed to enter a time of tribulation. John told us the 144k are being sealed to protect them from the Trumpets and Thunders. The person told John those in heaven had been coming out of tribulation.

This timing of the seal of the 144k in relation to those coming out of the GT is correct. The seal of the Holy Spirit is the same as for you and me. These will receive the power of Moses and Elijah for 1260 days, the duration of the GT.

I believe the trumpets began with WWII and will end at the time of Jesus return.

I believe that the thunders will all happen during the period of GT.

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

When the 4 winds blow, they blow in the next world empire. We haven't had a world empire since Rome. The 4 angels mentioned arise at the time of the 6th trumpet, spiritual beings arising from the area of the Euphrates River. The 200 million cavalry belong to AC who is rising to take over the New Roman world empire. When the 200 million reach Jerusalem, the GT begins.

Why would John see people safely in heaven, before this time of tribulation, and also before the tribulation even started, if they were still on earth after this point?

You would be saying that only the 144k are sealed, but every one in heaven were not sealed, and even died during the Trumpets and Thunders, even though John saw them in heaven prior to the Trumpets and Thunders. John does not call the Trumpets and Thunders the tribulation the great. That was from the mouth of the one speaking to John. The person did not say they will come out of the tribulation the great. He said they were those who came out of the tribulation the great.

That multitude was the entire church body. Not just a small group outside of a larger church body.

I hope I clarified things with my comments above.