THE CHURCH

CoreIssue said:

While the names very there is only two positions in the church: elders and deacons.

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Absolutely false.

There are Episkopoi (Overseers/Bishops)
Presbyters (Priests/Elders)
Diakonos (Deacons)

An Episkopos is a Presbyter - but a Presbyter is NOT necessarily an Episkopos.
The Episkopoi are the successors of the Apostles (Acts 1:20).

1 Cor. 1:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

BreadOfLife said:

Absolutely false.

There are Episkopoi (Overseers/Bishops)
Presbyters (Priests/Elders)
Diakonos (Deacons)

An Episkopos is a Presbyter - but a Presbyter is NOT necessarily an Episkopos.
The Episkopoi are the successors of the Apostles (Acts 1:20).

1 Cor. 1:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

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Elders and overseers are the same thing.

There are no priests in the church age.

Apostles like the 12 do not exist anymore.

FHII said:

Again I ask: all Churches?

It's not that I disagree with you; I agree with your overall point. I see a whole lot missing in false Churches. But it doesn't do anyone any good without defining more specifically what is missing. Then we ask again if all Churches lack this.

We still have the verses where God noted the importance a actual assembling of people with leadership.

But I ask you also what the suitable alternative is? Are we to study the Bible on our own and figure it out on our own? Do you really think that's a suitable alternative?

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Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

no there is not one. All men who have come to Christ have Christ.. is HE not enough.

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister.

BreadOfLife said:

Christ's Church is . . .

ONE
John 10:16, John 17:17-23, Eph. 4:4-6, 1 Cor. 1:10, Rom. 16:17, Phil. 2:2, Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 12:13, Col. 3:15

HOLY
1 Tim. 3:15, Col. 1:18, 1 Pet. 2:9-10, Eph. 2:19-22

CATHOLIC (‘universal’ & ‘of the fullness’)
Matt. 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16, John 14:26, John 16:12-13

APOSTOLIC
Eph. 2:19-20, Matt. 16:18-10, Luke 22:28-30, John 15:16, Matt. 28:16,18-20, John 20:21-23

A VISIBLE entity that cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14-16)

It is NOT an "invisible" gaggle of different groups teaching different doctrines based on the different beliefs of different leaders.

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I didnt know people where invisible, must be really dark sunglasses you wear,

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

BreadOfLife said:

Absolutely false.
There are Episkopoi (Overseers/Bishops)
Presbyters (Priests/Elders)
Diakonos (Deacons)

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The New Testament uses the terms "elders" and "bishops" interchangeably. And there are only two offices in the NT -- elders and deacons (no deaconesses and no female elders or pastors).

Elder (presbyter) indicates spiritual maturity, whereas bishop (episkopos) indicates the role of oversight. The apostle Peter makes this very clear in his first epistle, where he deems himself an elder (not the pope). And the elders would also have the spiritual gifts of evangelists, pastors, teachers, governments, etc. in order to feed the flock and maintain oversight.

However, shortly after the apostles passed on, we see the churches putting one man as bishop over the churches. Then we see the perversion of presbyters to priests, following which we see the priests being handed special powers and privileges, leading to the creation of a clergy and laity.

Then we see a whole ecclesiastical hierarchy with the pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, etc. all following the pagan concepts of Rome, where Pontifex Maximus was the chief pagan priest (a title taken over by the pope). In other words, the Roman Catholic Church made a complete mockery of Scripture, telling their adherents that Peter was the Rock on which the Church was built.

"...For Catholics, this text is clear. All twelve apostles were present, yet Jesus promised to give to Peter alone the keys of the kingdom, symbolizing the authority of Christ—the authority of heaven—over the kingdom of heaven on Earth, which is the Church. Yet millions of Protestants believe that there is a distinction in meaning in the Greek text between the two “rocks” that would eliminate Peter from consideration for being the rock..." [as they should]
Peter the Rock

CoreIssue said:

Elders and overseers are the same thing.
There are no priests in the church age.

Apostles like the 12 do not exist anymore.

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WRONG.
Elders (Prebyters) and Overseers (Episkopoi) are NOT the same thing.

Secondly - the Episkopos is a successor to the Apostles. We see PROOF of this in Acts 1, when the assembly is choosing a replacement for Judas.
Acts 1:20 says explicitly:
‘May another take his office.’

the Greek word for "office" that is used here is "Episkopay" or "BISHOPRIC" - and this verse makes it CLEAR that it is a successive office.

Finally - Webster's Collegiate Dictionary and EVERY etymological dictionary in the world acknowledges that "Presbyter" and "Priest" are SYNONYMS.
They are simply TWO different languages for the SAME thing . . .

BreadOfLife said:

WRONG.
Elders (Prebyters) and Overseers (Episkopoi) are NOT the same thing.

Secondly - the Episkopos is a successor to the Apostles. We see PROOF of this in Acts 1, when the assembly is choosing a replacement for Judas.
Acts 1:20 says explicitly:
‘May another take his office.’

the Greek word for "office" that is used here is "Episkopay" or "BISHOPRIC" - and this verse makes it CLEAR that it is a successive office.

Finally - Webster's Collegiate Dictionary and EVERY etymological dictionary in the world acknowledges that "Presbyter" and "Priest" are SYNONYMS.
They are simply TWO different languages for the SAME thing . . .

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Bible verse please.

Your pushing Catholic secession when the Bible talks about simply filling a vacancy.

Enoch111 said:

The New Testament uses the terms "elders" and "bishops" interchangeably. And there are only two offices in the NT -- elders and deacons (no deaconesses and no female elders or pastors).

Elder (presbyter) indicates spiritual maturity, whereas bishop (episkopos) indicates the role of oversight. The apostle Peter makes this very clear in his first epistle, where he deems himself an elder (not the pope). And the elders would also have the spiritual gifts of evangelists, pastors, teachers, governments, etc. in order to feed the flock and maintain oversight.

However, shortly after the apostles passed on, we see the churches putting one man as bishop over the churches. Then we see the perversion of presbyters to priests, following which we see the priests being handed special powers and privileges, leading to the creation of a clergy and laity.

Then we see a whole ecclesiastical hierarchy with the pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, etc. all following the pagan concepts of Rome, where Pontifex Maximus was the chief pagan priest (a title taken over by the pope). In other words, the Roman Catholic Church made a complete mockery of Scripture, telling their adherents that Peter was the Rock on which the Church was built.

"...For Catholics, this text is clear. All twelve apostles were present, yet Jesus promised to give to Peter alone the keys of the kingdom, symbolizing the authority of Christ—the authority of heaven—over the kingdom of heaven on Earth, which is the Church. Yet millions of Protestants believe that there is a distinction in meaning in the Greek text between the two “rocks” that would eliminate Peter from consideration for being the rock..." [as they should]
Peter the Rock

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I already addressed the fact that a Bishop (Episkopos) is a Priest (Presbyter) - but a Priest (Presbyter) is NOT necessarily a Bishop (Episkopos). Those roles are identical today.

ALL the Bishops - including the Pope are Priests - but the average parish Priest is NOT a Bishop.
YOUR objections to this are merely YOUR objections and nothing else . . .

CoreIssue said:

Bible verse please.

Your pushing Catholic secession when the Bible talks about simply filling a vacancy.

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I just GAVE you one (Acts 1:20) - "OFFICE".

mjrhealth said:

I didnt know people where invisible, must be really dark sunglasses you wear,

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

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Nice passage - but completely irrelevant to the conversation.
Learn how to properly divide Scripture . . .

BreadOfLife said:

I just GAVE you one (Acts 1:20) - "OFFICE".

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But not a verse that states there is a new testament priest within the churches.

CoreIssue said:

But not a verse that states there is a new testament priest within the churches.

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WRONG.

Paul makes NO small case for the Priesthood and the ministry of reconciliation clearly in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:

“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, "Whomever you forgive anything, SO DO I. For indeed WHAT I HAVE FORGIVEN, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins (John 20:21-23) in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

Finally, in John 20:21-23, we read the account of what took place in the upper room on the day of the Lord’s Resurrection.
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

"As the Father has sent me, so I send you"
What did the Father send Jesus to do? To FORGIVE SINS.
What is Jesus sending the Apostles to do? To FORGIVE SINS in His name.

Finally - The fact that Jesus breathed on them when he gave them this power is very significant because, in all of Scripture, there are only two places where God breathes on man.
- The first is when he breathed life into Adam (Gen 2:7).
- The second place is here in John’s Gospel, where he gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins or hold them bound.

But..the point is, do we REALLY believe that if all the building were destroyed and no Christians were allowed to meet together, large or even two together...that then The Church had been destroyed?!!!

The Church is not any building , be it house, school , brick or wood..neither is the Church a gathering of people....

THE CHURCH is the world wide , blood washed , saints of Almighty God...every colour and country....alive and WELL on planet earth.

"ByGrace" said:

But..the point is, do we REALLY believe that if all the building were destroyed and no Christians were allowed to meet together, large or even two together...that then The Church had been destroyed?!!!

The Church is not any building , be it house, school , brick or wood..neither is the Church a gathering of people....

THE CHURCH is the world wide , blood washed , saints of Almighty God...every colour and country....alive and WELL on planet earth.

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I totally agree that Christ's Church is NOT a building - and never was.
Not sure why that keeps coming up . . .

BreadOfLife said:

WRONG.

Paul makes NO small case for the Priesthood and the ministry of reconciliation clearly in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:

“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, "Whomever you forgive anything, SO DO I. For indeed WHAT I HAVE FORGIVEN, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins (John 20:21-23) in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

Finally, in John 20:21-23, we read the account of what took place in the upper room on the day of the Lord’s Resurrection.
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

"As the Father has sent me, so I send you"
What did the Father send Jesus to do? To FORGIVE SINS.
What is Jesus sending the Apostles to do? To FORGIVE SINS in His name.

Finally - The fact that Jesus breathed on them when he gave them this power is very significant because, in all of Scripture, there are only two places where God breathes on man.
- The first is when he breathed life into Adam (Gen 2:7).
- The second place is here in John’s Gospel, where he gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins or hold them bound.

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Still no verse stating priest.

CoreIssue said:

Still no verse stating priest.

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It CLEARLY shows to e ROLE of the priest.

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests:
- Aaron, the High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a General Priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The General Priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all NT fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the OT type.

Finally, in the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood without the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the Rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16).

This is why both Luther and Calvin wanted to REMOVE the Epistle of Jude from the Canon.

BreadOfLife said:

It CLEARLY shows to e ROLE of the priest.

In the Old Testament, there were three levels of Priests:
- Aaron, the High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a General Priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The General Priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all NT fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious than the OT type.

Finally, in the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood without the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the Rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16).

This is why both Luther and Calvin wanted to REMOVE the Epistle of Jude from the Canon.

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So what? This is not the Old Testament.

Yes Jesus is our high priest.

James is talking about deacons.

Jude is Using Old Testament examples of those who pervert the teachings of God.

Peter is not talking about churches. It is talking about us being a priesthood of our bodies which are temples of the Holy Spirit.

You have yet to show me the priesthood in churches.

You have not cannot show a verse saying there are priests in the churches.

Nancy said:

I know this is not directed at me FHII but...I personally do not believe that every church is that way...I see many good, scripture based Churches around here although, the bigger they are, the more many fall through the cracks it seems.

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Absolutely. It's just a theory I have, but it's tough to keep a big congregation and preach ALL the truth. If a pastor sets out to do so, he's going to have to preach about hell. He's going to have preach about the dangers of splits and cliques. Then he's going to have to rebuke someone. Even when he's sticking to feel-good sermons it's tough to please everyone.

FHII said:

Absolutely. It's just a theory I have, but it's tough to keep a big congregation and preach ALL the truth. If a pastor sets out to do so, he's going to have to preach about hell. He's going to have preach about the dangers of splits and cliques. Then he's going to have to rebuke someone. Even when he's sticking to feel-good sermons it's tough to please everyone.

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Amen to that...it's rare anymore I suppose for pastors to preach ALL truth freely without "fretting" about their doors closing. If God blesses a place/group for preaching His whole word...why should a pastor even doubt his Church will be blessed, there seems no true balance anymore. SO many churches seem to just concentrate on uber Grace or uber Law! But then, what do I know?!! Meh. lol

BreadOfLife said:

Nice passage - but completely irrelevant to the conversation.
Learn how to properly divide Scripture . . .

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What like this bit

1Co_3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co_3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co_6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?