CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
He rejected amillennialism, Calvinism, the Bible was figurative and a number of things you believe.
I never heard him say anything I disagreed with. Either him or Dr. John Ankerberg.
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
He rejected amillennialism, Calvinism, the Bible was figurative and a number of things you believe.
I never heard him say anything I disagreed with. Either him or Dr. John Ankerberg.
That is totally incorrect. The language of angels is simply hyperbole. Had the words glossais and dialektos been simply translated as either "language" or "dialect" we would know that God enabled men to speak supernaturally in a totally unknown (to the speaker) foreign language.
What Paul says in 1 Cor 14 should not be misinterpreted. He is rebuking the abuse of tongues within the assembly. What he says is that unless there is an interpreter, only God understands what is being spoken. Therefore it is imperative that there be interpretation within the church gathering.
“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” (1 Corinthians 14:2)
You need to study from a broader spectrum. Consider more than one view. You are being brainwashed if you do not.
I know what you are talking about. Every denomination has a framework for reading scripture. That is what makes them tick. I think frameworks are good if proven true over the years but there are so many now, it's dangerous just to jump right in and assume they are correct.
- Dec 31, 2010
- 5,178
- 2,384
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I was born on a military base to a
1. Dad - Who studied to be a priest in Catholic seminary
2. Mom - Brought up Pentecostal Holiness and on a farm
We moved up in central Michigan when I was in grade school where I got a paper route and a motorcycle. The school of the time was very wild. You could hear the 70’s rock and roll all the time with young people out in the fields smoking dope. One day while on a route a church bus stops and the driver yells out the door that I needed to be in church.The next thing I know the whole family is attending the local baptist church. The whole youth group would go to church and also party it up with the others of the day. I ended up growing my hair long and falling in with the times.
Regarding the Baptist church they had me believing that speaking of tongues was of the devil and I believed them. The problem was that church was cold as an ice box. In February I used to look out into the ice cold Michigan tundra, with the wind blowing solid white over the road, and a temperature much below zero and wonder what was colder, the tundra I was looking out on, or the church I was in.
When I was seventeen I moved in with my grandmother and attended a party with the young people. I had thought I had snuck in the house good enough, but just as I had got in bed my grandmothers light turned on. There at the doorway my grandmother stood with tears running down her cheeks soaking into her nightgown, making for, I do know, the most pitiful sight (and most powerful sermon) I have ever seen. I told her I would not do that again and kept my word.
So I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness people. I would work the restaurant in the mornings, the hayfields in the afternoon and go to the revivals at night. We had a wonderful youth group and would go to the many functions. I came into a Pentecostal Holiness Church that was in revival. The old guys would sit back in the pew and weep while the people before them were being laid out in the Spirit. If they looked back and catch the amazed look in my eye they would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" As they pointed to the souls blessed around the altar. After being in such an environment for months one evening while laying on my bed reading Nikki Cruises "Run Baby Run" I felt the Holy Spirit speak to me for the first time to put the book down. When I did he says again, "Where is all that stress, tension, bad feelings, and the like?" In which examining my soul there was nothing there but pure beauty, and in the words of George Clark Rankin,
"As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.
"I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - The Life of George Clark Rankin
What I ran into I can only describe as a light and an energy that delighted my soul. The old WWII generation would normally have small farms, work local jobs, and it was church at night. The people would work hard Mo-Fr, town on Saturday, and church on Sunday. There were blue laws that kept the places of businesses closed on Sunday, making for I can only describe as an area of Wesleyan culture.
This is why I am Pentecostal Holiness as that is where the light of God warmed and enlightened my heart.
1. Dad - Who studied to be a priest in Catholic seminary
2. Mom - Brought up Pentecostal Holiness and on a farm
We moved up in central Michigan when I was in grade school where I got a paper route and a motorcycle. The school of the time was very wild. You could hear the 70’s rock and roll all the time with young people out in the fields smoking dope. One day while on a route a church bus stops and the driver yells out the door that I needed to be in church.The next thing I know the whole family is attending the local baptist church. The whole youth group would go to church and also party it up with the others of the day. I ended up growing my hair long and falling in with the times.
Regarding the Baptist church they had me believing that speaking of tongues was of the devil and I believed them. The problem was that church was cold as an ice box. In February I used to look out into the ice cold Michigan tundra, with the wind blowing solid white over the road, and a temperature much below zero and wonder what was colder, the tundra I was looking out on, or the church I was in.
When I was seventeen I moved in with my grandmother and attended a party with the young people. I had thought I had snuck in the house good enough, but just as I had got in bed my grandmothers light turned on. There at the doorway my grandmother stood with tears running down her cheeks soaking into her nightgown, making for, I do know, the most pitiful sight (and most powerful sermon) I have ever seen. I told her I would not do that again and kept my word.
So I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness people. I would work the restaurant in the mornings, the hayfields in the afternoon and go to the revivals at night. We had a wonderful youth group and would go to the many functions. I came into a Pentecostal Holiness Church that was in revival. The old guys would sit back in the pew and weep while the people before them were being laid out in the Spirit. If they looked back and catch the amazed look in my eye they would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" As they pointed to the souls blessed around the altar. After being in such an environment for months one evening while laying on my bed reading Nikki Cruises "Run Baby Run" I felt the Holy Spirit speak to me for the first time to put the book down. When I did he says again, "Where is all that stress, tension, bad feelings, and the like?" In which examining my soul there was nothing there but pure beauty, and in the words of George Clark Rankin,
"As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.
"I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - The Life of George Clark Rankin
What I ran into I can only describe as a light and an energy that delighted my soul. The old WWII generation would normally have small farms, work local jobs, and it was church at night. The people would work hard Mo-Fr, town on Saturday, and church on Sunday. There were blue laws that kept the places of businesses closed on Sunday, making for I can only describe as an area of Wesleyan culture.
This is why I am Pentecostal Holiness as that is where the light of God warmed and enlightened my heart.
- Dec 31, 2010
- 5,178
- 2,384
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
And this is why I am very much against Dave L’s desire to turn the church back into the ice box I came out of.
The human brain can absorb a lot of biblical verse knowledge...by way of the carnal mind...but little to no understanding from this.
As an example the C of C permit no musical instruments...why?...because they are not mentioned in the NT text!!! (but then neither is clothing) Talk about legalism...
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Well, you’re probably oneness in your belief, so you’ve got bigger fish to fry.
- Dec 31, 2010
- 5,178
- 2,384
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Not at all oneness. The services were identical to the Methodist service 100 years before us (The Life of George Clark Rankin) and the people were allowed to get the Holy Ghost in their own unique way. The preaching was....
1. Salvation - Simple sinners prayer
2. Sanctification - If there was no love in the experience the old timers would say, no, you don't have it yet, come back tomorrow night!
3. The Witness of the Spirit - With the speaking of tongues
Oneness Pentecostals creep me out and I never did like what was going on there. I don't mind people saying they have the Holy Spirit without the speaking in tongues, but I would be in hopes of finding some kind of warmth, love, faith, joy, goodness, and like spiritual fruit on the inside.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
My apologies then. Most holiness Pentecostals are oneness, iirc. Again, my apology.
- Dec 31, 2010
- 5,178
- 2,384
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I have often wondered if Holiness should have been part of the movement. The Holiness and Pentecostal movements broke out of the Methodist church in the late 1800's and formed the Pentecostal Holiness church in North Carolina. Holiness can be too legalistic. But the opposite of Holiness would be worldliness, which is rampant in our time. I find it wise to return to our Wesleyan roots.
If you search Pentecostal Holiness it is basic Christian doctrine.... IPHC Manual - IPHC.
I will let you (and any others) do the looking on your own, but it will make your jaw drop when you eventually discover the many supposed "doctrines" our various denominations get hooked-up on through nothing more than their interpretations based upon the "silences" not mentioned in the bible.
Speaking of music, just for starters, look at the different kinds of instruments and types of singing that many "Christians" almost damn, just because they are not what they find in the Bible.
Last edited:
- Dec 31, 2010
- 5,178
- 2,384
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Believe me I understand.
We had a oneness Pentecostal push in these parts a couple of decades ago. These people would not let anyone claim salvation unless they spoke in tongues. I had a guy I worked with who was in this and his personality actually warmed up after he fell out of the movement. Oneness Pentecostal... I think of it as "Yankee Pentecostalism" as there is very little of the warmth, care, compassion, character, charity, and joy that I was accustomed to in the Wesleyan way of getting things.
Not so.
This is yet just one more logical fallacy.
The gift is given. It remains God's gift. Prove otherwise. Prove that God cannot and does not give tongues to believers today.
I have to laugh at people who say, "Well, it's not in the Bible!"
Jesus only spoke about 6,600 words in the entire Bible. The average man speaks 7,000 words in one day. (The average woman, more than 20,000.) Does that mean we can understand nothing about Jesus beyond just less than a day's utterances?
Jesus only spoke about 6,600 words in the entire Bible. The average man speaks 7,000 words in one day. (The average woman, more than 20,000.) Does that mean we can understand nothing about Jesus beyond just less than a day's utterances?
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
There was a reason why the gift of tongues was given to Christians in the first century. There was also a reason why Paul said "Whether there be tongues, THEY SHALL CEASE".
Paul selected three spiritual gifts for cessation, and they all are related directly or indirectly to divine revelations: (1)prophecies, (2) tongues, and (3) supernatural knowledge (1 Cor 13:8).
As long as the New Testament was incomplete, these three gifts were necessary. But once the book of Revelation was written down c. 96 AD, prophecies ceased. So did tongues and supernatural knowledge. Christians had a complete Bible, and the manuscripts were being circulated in the churches. So that by the second century, the NT canon had been established.
The other thing to note is that tongues were a "sign" to unbelieving Jews that God was the Author of the Gospel, and He was empowering the apostles and their companions. So when a Galilean spoke a totally foreign language supernaturally, unbelieving Jews would be compelled to accept the Gospel as a message from God. We see this in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost. Therefore Paul raises this issue with the Corinthians:
In the law [the Old Testament] it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Cor 14:21,22).
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
I worked with a girl several years ago whose grandmother was a Pentecostal pastor, iirc. They were of those who said if you don’t speak in tongues you’re lost.
- Dec 31, 2010
- 5,178
- 2,384
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I worked with a girl several years ago whose grandmother was a Pentecostal pastor, iirc. They were of those who said if you don’t speak in tongues you’re lost.
In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them. - Proverbs 14:13
When we had a plating department in our facility I worked under a chemist. This chemist was very smart and very good at math. When he laid out equations he did so in very neat handwriting and there would be much activity as he turned the results of an analysis into an addition. I would take his calculations and put them in the form of visual basic functions and sub procedures.
Of all the years I worked with this man I had one opportunity to witness to him. I made my presentation while he was analyzing adhesion under a microscope in which you could hear the sounds... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! After my presentation he just continued to look under the microscope as if ignored everything I said so I just continued in my work. Then... The scratch scratch, scratching stopped! And he speaks!
"You know what I think it is?" He says while continuing to look under the microscope... "I think it is arrogance!"
And then, without taking his eyes off the microscope, he continues his work... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! I did not reply but went about my work. Inside I feared he was right. In many cases religion can inhabit too much personal ego. This is true in Oneness Pentecostalism and in any denomination where they think they have the corner on everything.
Similar threads
