Does God Mind If Idols Of 'saints' Are Worshipped In Church?

Brother Mike · Aug 15, 2009

Brother Knight. If you want to be a Catholic then fine!!! It's cool. Your going to have to take a little more time and thought about the way you Read God's word though. That applies no matter What denomination your in. I also am thinking that I am wasting my time here, and I don't like to do that.Part of your issue is taking ONE scripture and not comparing and reading above and below the scriptures. I will say it again.......... The word was not given in scriptures and verse. We added those for ease of use. Hebrews 10:26-27I wrote about that sin here. (What is the unforgivable sin)http://www.christianityboard.com/showthread.php?p=71256&posted=1#post71256Did you count the blood of Jesus worthless??? Thats what the sin was talking about. At that time during the Writing of Hebrews lots of Christians were turning back to Judaism because of persecution. READ ABOVE AND BELOW THE SCRIPTURE!!!-------------------------------Nobody said we could not sin. You did not address what I told you in 1 John. I broke down What John was talking about even though you said you said:The scripture says if we confess that sin then he is faithful and just to forgive that sin!!! and cleans us from Unrighteousness. Don't ignore some scriptures to make you point.

Then please explain the passages which I referenced in my earlier post which demonstrate that God does not hear the prayers of sinners

I took the time to do that, yet you don't want to address it anymore?? Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. -----------------------------Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Some did overcome!!! are you telling me your not planing to obey God and become one of them? There are some that did not repent and turn from what they were doing that displeased God. Thats why they have the soiled Garments, there were not overcomer's but lovers of this world.What should we do?? If we are falling short? Read above the scriptures......Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. We take heed and fix those things in our life that need fixed. I am not sure what your point about this scripture was unless your planing on not obeying God, if thats the case then why bother being a Christian??So Brother, your going to have to stop that thing your on about praying to Saints. There is no scripture for it. Even with the scriptures that talk about prayer, they mention nothing about praying to a dead person. You would think something as important as prayer that God would mention this if it was what he wanted us to do. Get a clue brother!!! 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Notice now would have been a good time to mention dead saints? Are you starting to understand?Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. It was Jesus that made a way for us to go to God without any sin or condemnation. Jesus is able to present us Holy and without spot or blemish. Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Are you planing not to continue in the faith? Is that why you feel the need to pray to saints? Don't waste my time anymore unless your going to actually read what was posted. There is a point where one wants to hold onto bad doctrine and will completely ignore other scriptures. Thats the point they become unteachable and have stopped growing in God.

Nomad · Aug 15, 2009

Sir Knight;71319]All of that stuff about being forgiven our sins said:
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.[/FONT]

With all due respect, I'm afraid that you're not grasping the context and meaning of the Hebrews passage you quote. It has nothing to do with what you're trying to prove. The situation the writer is addressing is one where Hebew Christians are being persecuted for "leaving" Judaism and consequently influenced to return to Judaism and the old sacrificial system. The "willful sin" of which the writer speaks is the abandonment or the "falling away" from Christ after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Christ fulfilled the types and shadows of the Levitical sacrifices and has become the reality to which they pointed. If these Hebrews run back to Judaism there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins under the Old Covenant as they once knew it. Christ is now the only sacrifice and His sacrifice was complete.Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Vickie · Aug 15, 2009

MickinEngland;71251]Right said:
"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father" - John 14:13.[/I]

The Lord holds the shepherds over the people whom have placed themselves in that office as teachers of God's words, accountable for the miss guidance these ministers, organizations who place them over the people accountable. We who understand the freedom in Christ are not at liberty to condemn anyone in a Catholic church, though, many have taken this option. We are to build up the house that God is building for there is a day coming that all who have preached the words of God are being held accountable for the wrong they have taught.Along with any one who destroys the house that God is building for there are many parts of the body and we are a part of that body as well as anyone who professes Jesus Christ as the Son of God, which the Catholic's do. Are their doctrines in their teachings wrong? Yes, but so are much of the Protestant's teachings also. And the Sabbath teachers and the Sunday teachers. There is one teaching coming from the pulpits concerning God's command to all of us which stands strong in each professing church and that is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND LOVE GOD. To sit here and condemn a person for being a Catholic or a Protestant is NOT LOVING ONE ANOTHER AS COMMANDED, but rather destroying the HOUSE THAT GOD IS BUILDING, don't you think? I have watched this condemnation of others, trying to put one belief system of Jesus above another, it is wrong for Jesus is being taught as the Son of God. Exactly what Romans 10:9 states as what saves you. The keeping of a Saturday or a Sunday or a religious festival for the reality is in Christ as Colossians 2:16-17 says. I went to the Watchman Fellowship, Arlington Branch in Texas and spoke with Phillip Aarons who I have very much respect for. We have become good friends. He and I discussed there are many brethren in many places who know God and they are in many understandings called doctrines, but when they profess Jesus as the Son of God we must not condemn them in any way. He now understands the defending of Gods words over the churches is not to force Protestant teachings on to anyone who teaches another doctrine that is not Protestant and call them a cult. For there are those who are the toe and then there is those parts of the body that are the arm. One must be careful not to destroy any of them. The Watchman is based on Protestant understanding. I am glad to say they have come away from their attacks on Sabbath keepers and no longer pursue that teaching as cultism. Though some still in the higher up office still aren't understanding the fullness of what God speaks, they mean well, but are not in a place themselves to criticize anyone who believes Jesus is the Son of God. Men gets an idea from their own understanding of God's words and if not careful gets puffed up and destroys many who profess Jesus as the Son of God. The Watchmen fellowship has done this with the people under the Catholic doctrines. God will hold the men over this doctrine of the Catholic teachings responsible for continuing it and teaching these little one's who profess his name responsible at his coming. It is not our place to destroy or hurt any of them.

MickinEngland · Aug 15, 2009

[quote name='Vickie;71344]..To sit here and condemn a person for being a Catholic or a Protestant is NOT LOVING ONE ANOTHER AS COMMANDED' date=' but rather destroying the HOUSE THAT GOD IS BUILDING, don't you think?..[/QUOTE'] If someones beliefs have digressed away from Jesus, it's our duty as Good Samaritans to help them get back on track..

(2 Tim 2:25-26)

Brother Mike · Aug 15, 2009

Vickie:

We who understand the freedom in Christ are not at liberty to condemn anyone in a Catholic church, though, many have taken this option.

Nobody here is condemning anyone. Brother Knight asked us to respond to his scriptures and we did. You can call yourself a Catholic and still believe what the Word says. This has nothing to do with being Catholic but what the scriptures really say.Jesus Is Lord.

Vickie · Aug 16, 2009

MickinEngland;71346]If someones beliefs have digressed away from Jesus said:
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. [/U]It is another gospel being preached if anyone does not belief Jesus was in the earth, though he did not see decay as promised but would rise on the 3 day. To say Jesus was some where else is not the truth. It goes against the very gospel written saying the sign given to us would be his being in the ground and resurrected on the 3rd day. Jesus was not in heaven, Jesus himself said he could not ascend until the 40 days were completed. Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: If anyone else preach a different gospel than this it is false. Jesus was in the ground never ascended into the heavens until the 40 days were finished.When David spoke and recorded in Acts 2:25 that God promised David he would be delivered from the grave, for Jesus would come and die also, being resurrected on the 3rd day and not see decay, that when Jesus returns David would be resurrected into eternal life. David would NOT BE ABANDONED to THE GRAVE, nor would God's Holy One see DECAY. Because Jesus was resurrected on the 3rd day by God, Jesus did NOT SEE DECAY. David will be filled with Joy in God's presence at HIS COMING. As will all Jews and Christians at Christ's coming who are SAVED. Acts 2:31 David, seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that Christ was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. This is the gospel the hope each Jew and Christian have been given because the Christ has risen, taking the sins of the world in his blood shed. To preach another gospel than this is doctrines being added to the true gospel. When we are told that we will not be resurrected from our graves along with David at Christ's coming is not true, nor in the bible. Jesus said in John 5:28-29 When all who are in their graves will hear hear HIS VOICE, as David will, all who are in them will come out of the graves ---those who have done good to everlasting life, those who have done evil to be condemned. So, when one dies the are in the grave waiting for the voice of Jesus to raise them up to be given everlasting life or to be condemned just as these verses say. When one dies, Jesus separates them into these two categories. When we are all raised up some will go to the right some will go to the left to be condemned. When we die, we can not go to heaven, for this judgment must be fulfilled even before eternal life can be given along with David. This is why the DEAD IN CHRIST will rise and come with Jesus at the sound of the arch angel's voice and the trumpet call of God, just as Paul wrote this, before those who are alive at His Coming can be taken. The separation takes place at death, those who are in Abraham's bosom are where Abraham is, sleeping in the ground waiting for the Day of The Lord to raise them up for eternal life to be given. The hope of David and all who believe in Christ. David spoke of this resurrection of Jesus for he knew Christ and held this hope we have also in Christ.People want to indoctrinate this truth they can and say we go to heaven, but the truth of the matter is Judgment must come first and when we die the separation takes place as Lazarus and the Rich man define this act of separation of those who have been placed with Abraham and those who have been condemn to Hell. When we die the judgment of eternal life is placed on us or eternal condemnation is placed on us. All who have have part in the 1st resurrection at Christ's coming (Rev 20:6) who have not been condemned at their death, will have no fear of the 2nd death. Those who have risen to life that are not in the kingdom of God with Christ will suffer the 2nd death as the bible does speak much on this 2nd death that will occur to those who have been raised up in condemnation.

MickinEngland · Aug 16, 2009

Vickie;71393] ..Jesus was not in heaven said:
What? Didn't he say to the man on the cross next to him-"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)

Vickie · Aug 16, 2009

MickinEngland;71394]What? Didn said:
-"I tell you the truth' date=' [B']today[/B] you will be with me in paradise[/I]." (Luke 23:43)

Hi Mike. The word paradise Paradise — a Persian word (pardes), properly meaning a “pleasure-ground” or “park” or “king’s garden.” (See EDEN.) It came in course of time to be used as a name for the world of happiness and rest hereafter (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7). For “garden” in Gen. 2:8 the LXX. has “paradiseNone of these refers to heaven. The ground, where one sleeps is paradise to the departed. We rest from our labors. God considered the sleep he would enter into to be paradise and all three would be with him. They sleep to this day awaiting for the resurrection as all men do. The judgment has to fall on the men who died and this man with Jesus went to the paradise-ground. Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. The word paradise is used here in Rev. this is not speaking of heaven for the 1000 yrs reign comes next and the tree of life is planted by the Euphrates River on both side. The paradise of God is here on earth. As doctrines were established in all churches when the teaching of the doctrine of going to heaven came into the churches, the word paradise came to be taught as in heaven. In trying to keep this doctrine of heaven established a lot of Paul's writings were taken in areas that would they felt substansiated this belief. No where in the bible is there the words the believers will ascend into heaven to live.The bible says the resurrection comes and the earth's people are given the land as their eternal inheritance. Daniel 7:27 Rev 2:7 and many other places. All the kingdoms UNDER THE HEAVENS are handed over to the SAINTS at Jesus' coming which is the EARTH.

Brother Mike · Aug 16, 2009

Vickie: Thats pretty fancy wording. sounds a lot better than what I tell people.Paradise was located in Hell. Everyone went to hell until Jesus got them out of there. As it was written you shall not leave my soul in hell.According to Jesus, Paradise and Hell were separated by a large gulf, but located in the same place. So the thief went to hell with Jesus or paradise the non torment version.

In trying to keep this doctrine of heaven established a lot of Paul's writings were taken in areas that would they felt substantiated this belief. No where in the bible is there the words the believers will ascend into heaven to live.

Now it could get confusing as we have the Heavens and Heaven or the central place God's throne is established. Jesus told us that in his fathers house are many mansions, and we are encompassed by a great cloud of witnesses. Paul said to be dead is to be with the lord. So, it would appear that we may go to heaven for a time, but the scripture makes it clear we are to come back with Jesus to the earth for 1,000 years. Then God is going to melt the earth and make everything new. Heaven is a planet and not just some clouds in space. God modeled the earth after heaven and rules heaven. He gave the earth to man, and you know what we did with that.Be blessed.Jesus Is Lord.

MickinEngland · Aug 16, 2009

Jesus said to the chap on the cross next to him- "Today you'll be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43)See, dead simple, no tangled theology and no confusion about it at all..

Brother Mike · Aug 16, 2009

Your right MickinEngland!!! Good enough for me also.Be blessed!!!Jesus Is Lord

MickinEngland · Aug 16, 2009

Yes, 'Frankenstein theology' (the patching together of assorted scriptures into a lumbering monstrosity) is not my style which is why I agree with Paul- "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3) And with the Preacher-"The more the words,the less the meaning,and how does that profit anyone?" NIV (Ecclesiastes 6:11)

mjrhealth · Aug 18, 2009

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Infallible Word of God tells us that God does not listen or answer the prayers of sinners ...

If God did not answer the prayers of sinners them you may as well go do what you want cause where all done for. Praying to saints is wrong, it is not from God and will do you no good. You have Jesus , He is our intercessor and the only one who speaks to God on our behalf, except of course for the Holy spirirt. The scripture says " go out all Ye saints", it does not say die do some miracles then become one, its because we seak such rediculous party tricks that satan keeps so many in bondage without them knowing it, just the like the israelites when they where in egypt. Get to know God, youll learn more from Him then ypou will the bible or men.In His Love

MickinEngland · Aug 18, 2009

mjrhealth;71510]..Get to know God said:
Yes, one second Saul was an out-of-control psychotic, and the next he was one of the greatest Christians of all, knocked off his feet by a blast of the Holy Spirit that changed him forever, without even having seen a Bible

mjrhealth · Aug 18, 2009

Yes, one second Saul was an out-of-control psychotic, and the next he was one of the greatest Christians of all, knocked off his feet by a blast of the Holy Spirit that changed him forever, without even having seen a Bible

IIt was going to church that made him a psycotic in the first place, listening to the wisdom of men, as you said it took the voice of Jesus to change all that.In HIs LOve

Sir Knight · Aug 18, 2009

[quote name='Nomad;71335]With all due respect' date=' I'm afraid that you're not grasping the context and meaning of the Hebrews passage you quote. It has nothing to do with what you're trying to prove. The situation the writer is addressing is one where Hebew Christians are being persecuted for "leaving" Judaism and consequently influenced to return to Judaism and the old sacrificial system. The "willful sin" of which the writer speaks is the abandonment or the "falling away" from Christ after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Christ fulfilled the types and shadows of the Levitical sacrifices and has become the reality to which they pointed. If these Hebrews run back to Judaism there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins under the Old Covenant as they once knew it. Christ is now the only sacrifice and His sacrifice was complete.[I']Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. [/I][/QUOTE]The point is that a person CAN sin even after they have accepted Christ -- which nullifies what was claimed earlier that a person who accepted Christ can't sin.

Sir Knight · Aug 18, 2009

Brother Mike;71324]Brother Knight. If you want to be a Catholic then fine!!! It said:
Rev 3:2[/B] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. We take heed and fix those things in our life that need fixed. I am not sure what your point about this scripture was unless your planing on not obeying God, if thats the case then why bother being a Christian??So Brother, your going to have to stop that thing your on about praying to Saints. There is no scripture for it. Even with the scriptures that talk about prayer, they mention nothing about praying to a dead person. You would think something as important as prayer that God would mention this if it was what he wanted us to do. Get a clue brother!!! 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Notice now would have been a good time to mention dead saints? Are you starting to understand?Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. It was Jesus that made a way for us to go to God without any sin or condemnation. Jesus is able to present us Holy and without spot or blemish. Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Are you planing not to continue in the faith? Is that why you feel the need to pray to saints? Don't waste my time anymore unless your going to actually read what was posted. There is a point where one wants to hold onto bad doctrine and will completely ignore other scriptures. Thats the point they become unteachable and have stopped growing in God.

May I remind you that the bible itself warns against the private interpretation of scripture. None of the conclusions that you have come up with existed for the first 1500+ years of Christianity. To think that those who were taught by the Apostles and their immediate successors would fail to understand it correctly and this belief would suddenly appear thousands of years later is absurd.

Sir Knight · Aug 18, 2009

mjrhealth;71510]If God did not answer the prayers of sinners them you may as well go do what you want cause where all done for. Praying to saints is wrong said:
1) Scripture tells us that those in heaven are very much alive.2) Scripture tells us that those in heaven are aware of our actions.3) Scripture tells us that those who are in heaven are free of all stain of sin.4) Scripture tells us that God hears and answers the prayers of the righteous before of those less righteous.5) Scripture tells us that even the just man sins seven times a day.Thus, those in heaven are significantly more righteous than we can ever be while still alive on earth. If there is nothing wrong in asking your friend, your neighbor, etc.; to pray for you, then there is nothing wrong in asking those in heaven to pray for you since their prayers on your behalf will be heard and answered before those of you own and those of your friends, neighbors, etc.This has been part of Church teaching prior to the Canonization of the bible.

Brother Mike · Aug 19, 2009

Sir Knight, Your hard core, Old School Catholic. If your Happy with what you believe and it's what you see in the Word, then there is not much else to post about. Your butting heads with those of us who are not Catholic. We will not agree with you. I am Word of Faith, and I butt heads with Baptist, Presbyterians, and even tongue talking Pentecostals. Catholic's to..... but they don't tend to judge others and write long articles about how evil a certain group is. Thats for your Baptist and Presbyterians. Jesus Is Lord, I believe that and you believe that, so we still have something in common.Be blessed.Jesus Is Lord.

Nomad · Aug 19, 2009

Sir Knight;71551]The point is that a person CAN sin even after they have accepted Christ -- which nullifies what was claimed earlier that a person who accepted Christ can said:
That wasn't exactly what I read in the post to which I responded.

Sir Knight;71319 said:

All of that stuff about being forgiven our sins' date=' refers to the sins that we had prior to coming to the faith. If we sin after coming to the faith, then those sins remain. I refer you to Hebrews 10:26-27 ...[FONT=Verdana']For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.[/FONT]

Click to expand...

I merely responded to your use of a proof-text that has nothing to do with proving your statement as quoted above.

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