Does God mind if idols of 'saints' are worshipped in church?

Hobie · Dec 20, 2023

Or any place for that matter, does the Bible say anything on this issue or is it silent, lets check scripture and see what it has...

Leviticus 19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2 Kings 17:12
For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

2 Chronicles 24:18
And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.

Deuteronomy 29:17
And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Psalm 135:15
The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Isaiah 2:8
Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

That seems pretty clear, so how can the Catholic Church bring idols before its people, how can they claim to follow God when they worship idols which He forbid, how can they justify it when the Bible is so clear........

Cassandra · Dec 20, 2023

Oh, now we are gonna hear about how ok it is because of Nehustan and the stuff in the tabernacle. You know, the palm trees on the curtains, and maybe the angels on the Ark of the Covenant. ((Even though those were ordained by God, not man. Man does not have permission.)
And the saints are just revered. This is Saint Peter's foot, worn away by kissing.

Ronald Nolette · Dec 20, 2023

Hobie said:
Or any place for that matter, does the Bible say anything on this issue or is it silent, lets check scripture and see what it has...

Leviticus 19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2 Kings 17:12
For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

2 Chronicles 24:18
And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.

Deuteronomy 29:17
And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Psalm 135:15
The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Isaiah 2:8
Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

That seems pretty clear, so how can the Catholic Church bring idols before its people, how can they claim to follow God when they worship idols which He forbid, how can they justify it when the Bible is so clear........

Because they play with language and redefine terms to make it only seem that they are not worshipping saints and Mary and angels. But they do/

Hobie · Dec 21, 2023

Cassandra said:
Oh, now we are gonna hear about how ok it is because of Nehustan and the stuff in the tabernacle. You know, the palm trees on the curtains, and maybe the angels on the Ark of the Covenant. ((Even though those were ordained by God, not man. Man does not have permission.)
And the saints are just revered. This is Saint Peter's foot, worn away by kissing.
View attachment 38752

Who is Nehustan?

Cassandra · Dec 21, 2023

First, I want you to know I agree with you.

Who is Nehustan?

I spelled it wrong. Sorry.

the Nehushtan (Hebrew: נְחֻשְׁתָּן Nəḥuštān [nəħuʃtaːn]) is the bronze image of a serpent on a pole.

Nehushtan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have seen it argued by a priest that because God did this, it is ok for us to make images. I have also seen that because there were images in the tabernacle in the wilderness that it is for man to make these. Nehushtan had to be destroyed because it was being worshiped 2Kings 18:4 "4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan."
So it is not a matter of God making a serpent--it is a matter of man continually worshiping it. It cannot be used as an example of it being ok to bow down to images.

God made the serpent on a cross to demonstrate that Christ became sin for us 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us. We are given no dictates to create any images, further we are asked not to in the 2nd commandment (numbered or not, the command is to not make any graven images, or to bow to them. Sometimes it is argued that the Commandments are not numbered, and that is why the the 2nd Commandment is different from Catholic to Protestant. Makes no difference--the command is still there.)

Illuminator · Dec 21, 2023

Only STUPID people think statues of saints are idols. It has been repeatedly demonstrated that the notion is absurd.

Do Catholics Worship Statues?

Do Catholics violate God's prohibition of idolatry by worshiping statues? We put this bogus claim to rest once and for all.

www.catholic.com

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

Illuminator · Dec 21, 2023

Cassandra said:
First, I want you to know I agree with you.

I spelled it wrong. Sorry.

the Nehushtan (Hebrew: נְחֻשְׁתָּן Nəḥuštān [nəħuʃtaːn]) is the bronze image of a serpent on a pole.

Nehushtan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have seen it argued by a priest that because God did this, it is ok for us to make images.

You don't talk to priests, you are afraid to. Besides, priests have better things to do than to argue with brainwashed bigots. Furthermore, you are trying to prove God was wrong to command Moses to make a bronze serpent, that you can't stand, solely on the grounds that the Israelites later fell into error. Your Bible twisting is insane.

Cassandra · Dec 21, 2023

Illuminator said:
Only STUPID people think statues of saints are idols. It has been repeatedly demonstrated that the notion is absurd.

Do Catholics Worship Statues?

Do Catholics violate God's prohibition of idolatry by worshiping statues? We put this bogus claim to rest once and for all.

www.catholic.com

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

ok--same old argument. always council of Trent, no scripture.
Stupid people? Really?
Why are there statues then? What happened to Peter's foot?
Im not anticatholic..
My whole family is Catholic and i love to go to church with them, (Redemptorist church), and it is lovely. found another protestant in there , because he had a KJV, and sometimes we talk together. His wife is Catholic. God's people are in all churches. I'm an SDA and I'd bet dollars to donuts that there will be more Catholics saved than Adventists, by numbers alone.

I love Abbeys, too. If we had a Catholic church within walking distance, I'd go every day.
That doesn't mean that graven images are ok in church.
And there are other things.
But God's people are in there.

Cassandra · Dec 21, 2023

Illuminator said:
You don't talk to priests, you are afraid to. Besides, priests have better things to do than to argue with brainwashed bigots. Furthermore, you are trying to prove God was wrong to command Moses to make a bronze serpent, that you can't stand, solely on the grounds that the Israelites later fell into error. Your Bible twisting is insane.

I went to and graduated from a Jesuit College in Kansas city, MO. I would not trade my education for anything. I had the pleasure of being with many who wrote their own textbooks. A few years ago, I was lucky enough to be taught Foundation Hand by a monk at an Abbey just a few hours North of KC. If that isn't the coolest thing ever. I wanted to read medieval manuscripts and letter the chant.Now I am in my 3rd year of Latin so I can read them.I've said that before on other threads. Been to Tridentine Mass in London on Palm sunday.

My favorite hymn is written by St. Francis of Assisi

First time I heard it was in Mass.

And for Chant? Te Deum.

This is beautiful and I believe that God is praised through the chant.

you can think what you want. I don't care.

Cassandra · Dec 21, 2023

Illuminator said:
You don't talk to priests, you are afraid to. Besides, priests have better things to do than to argue with brainwashed bigots. Furthermore, you are trying to prove God was wrong to command Moses to make a bronze serpent, that you can't stand, solely on the grounds that the Israelites later fell into error. Your Bible twisting is insane.

Wow, dude!! I never said God was wrong!!!!!! God can do what He wants. He knows what is best. That serpent was a symbol of Christ.
you need to read more slowly or something.

Illuminator · Dec 21, 2023

Cassandra said:
Wow, dude!! I never said God was wrong!!!!!! God can do what He wants. He knows what is best. That serpent was a symbol of Christ.

It was still a statue, that you vehemently oppose. Statues venerate the prototype, who are in heaven, just as the bronze serpent was a symbol of Christ.. Wood or plaster, or bronze of Jesus or the saints are not idols, for the 100th time. You are too proud to be corrected.

Cassandra said:
you need to read more slowly or something.

"I went to and graduated from a Jesuit College in Kansas city, MO. I would not trade my education for anything"

Then you should know better; statue worship is a stupid false canard that you repeat regularly. It appears you traded your education for the lies of Ellen G. White. That makes you anti-Protestant as well, because according to your false religion, Protestants are daughters of the whore. SDA sees whores and harlots all over the place. id est mentis morbum.

Cassandra · Dec 21, 2023

Why do you keep with the snotz?

You remind me of an attack dog that has no reason but to attack. you offer me one or two sentences with nothing biblical.
I don't care what you say about SDA.
You come off as knowing everything about someone, and when corrected, you just oh well then. You were way wrong about me. And since you don't appear to be able to back up your arguments with anything but snotz,

I dont think I'm gonna read any more of your stuff

Te ignoraturus sum.
Vale.

Bob Estey · Dec 22, 2023

Hobie said:
Or any place for that matter, does the Bible say anything on this issue or is it silent, lets check scripture and see what it has...

Leviticus 19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2 Kings 17:12
For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.

2 Chronicles 24:18
And they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served groves and idols: and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass.

Deuteronomy 29:17
And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Psalm 135:15
The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

Isaiah 2:8
Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

Habakkuk 2:18
What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

That seems pretty clear, so how can the Catholic Church bring idols before its people, how can they claim to follow God when they worship idols which He forbid, how can they justify it when the Bible is so clear........

I don't think God wants any humans worshiped, either here or in heaven..

Hobie · Dec 23, 2023

Bob Estey said:
I don't think God wants any humans worshiped, either here or in heaven..

Especially if they are dead and buried in the ground...

Traveler · Dec 30, 2023

Well this is my take on the situation.

Deu 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
Deu 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
Deu 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Deu 4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
Deu 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deu 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

God does not even allow men to make an idol of himself, why would he be happy with an idol of anything else. Fact is all idols are wrong, even those of Jesus or Mary. Your prays are supposed to be directed to God, not to things fashioned as representations.

Cassandra · Dec 30, 2023

DeWayne said:
Too bad you weren't taught by God!

In the Name of the Lord Yeshua you are delivered unto Satan. The Blood of the Lord Yeshua against you! And so is anyone who deletes this message.

amigo de christo · Dec 30, 2023

Cassandra said:
Why do you keep with the snotz?

You remind me of an attack dog that has no reason but to attack. you offer me one or two sentences with nothing biblical.
I don't care what you say about SDA.
You come off as knowing everything about someone, and when corrected, you just oh well then. You were way wrong about me. And since you don't appear to be able to back up your arguments with anything but snotz, I dont think I'm gonna read any more of your stuff

Te ignoraturus sum.
Vale.

RCC ignoraturus sumus .

Hobie · Dec 30, 2023

Illuminator said:
It was still a statue, that you vehemently oppose. Statues venerate the prototype, who are in heaven, just as the bronze serpent was a symbol of Christ.. Wood or plaster, or bronze of Jesus or the saints are not idols, for the 100th time. You are too proud to be corrected.

Then you should know better; statue worship is a stupid false canard that you repeat regularly. It appears you traded your education for the lies of Ellen G. White. That makes you anti-Protestant as well, because according to your false religion, Protestants are daughters of the whore. SDA sees whores and harlots all over the place. id est mentis morbum.

They dont venerate anyone, they are just graven images of stone, wood, metal, meant to divert what is only for God, and we see what scripture says on it.

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Illuminator · Dec 30, 2023

Hobie said:
They dont venerate anyone, they are just graven images of stone, wood, metal, meant to divert what is only for God, and we see what scripture says on it.

You refuse to understand the term "venerate". We have to resort to dictionaries because you don't understand plain English.

Hobie said:
Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

That is in reference to pagan gods, not statues of Jesus and the saints. Show me a verse that forbids Scripture in art form. There is no such verse. Your iconoclasm is unbiblical, supported by twisting Scripture.

The Catholic Church does not believe any statue or image has any power in and of itself. The beauty of statues and icons move us to the contemplation of the Word of God as he is himself or as he works in his saints. And, according to Scripture, as well as the testimony of the centuries, God even uses them at times to impart blessings (e.g., healings) according to his providential plan.

While it can certainly be understood how a superficial reading of the first commandment could lead one to believe we Catholics are in grave error with regard to our use of statues and icons, the key to a proper understanding of the first commandment is found at the very end of that same commandment, in verse 5 of Exodus 20: “You shall not bow down to them or serve [adore] them.”

The Lord did not prohibit statues; he prohibited the adoration of them. If God truly meant that we were not to possess any statues at all, then he would later contradict himself. Just five chapters after this commandment in Exodus 20, God commanded Moses to build the ark of the Covenant, which would contain the presence of God and was to be venerated as the holiest place in all of Israel. (Ex. 25:18–19)
read more here

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.

Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, “God has forbidden the use of images in worship” (281). Yet if people were to “search the scriptures” (John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues.
Ex. 25:18–20 Ezekiel 41:17–18
read more here

Idolatry Condemned by the Church

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

Pearl · Dec 30, 2023