Jesus In Heaven With God

Jesus is the Son of God, not "God the Son", for one cannot reverse the wording to put a trinitarian twist on them. It's like saying the "son of Paul", then reversing it and saying "Paul the son". Are they the same ? At John 17:1, 3, Jesus prays to his Father, saying:"Father....This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." Thus, Jesus is not "God the Father", but rather the one whom God "sent forth." Too, Jesus identifies his Father as the "only true God." This leaves Jesus out as God and not "God the holy spirit", an expression that is never seen in the Bible.

Jesus, in speaking to the Jews, told them that "not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father."(John 6:46) Jesus clearly says that "he...is from God", with no human having "seen the Father." The apostle John stated this as a fact, for he said that "no man has seen God at any time." He then says that "the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him."(John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) John correctly calls Jesus "the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father."

Ephesians 3:9 does not say that "God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."(King James Bible, Webster's Bible, Young's Bible) The words "by Jesus Christ", are not in the most ancient manuscripts, such as the Siniaticus and Vatican 1209 of the fourth century. These words were added in order to further support the trinity, by tying the words "God" and "Jesus Christ" together. In the interlinears, The Emphatic Diaglott, The New Testament in the Original Greek, and the online interlinear Scripture4all, these words are omitted. The New King James Bible has the added these words, but says in a side note that "the twenty-sixth edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament and...the United Bible Societies third edition omits through Jesus Christ."

gumby said:

I believe so, Luke 22:69 says that jesus sits at the right hand of god.

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I agree Gumby. He "sits at the right hand of God." The right hand signifies power.

Exodus 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

Exodus 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from His right hand went a fiery law for them.​

The glorious power of the Lord is Jesus and it is He that "dashes the enemy into pieces," and "swallows them up." He uses His saints to do this....they/we are His power.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.​

His power is His Word and He fills us with that power. He, the word, lives in us, walks in us, abides in us....He is our power used to.....

Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

musicworld said:

Hi to all Christians When we speak of Jesus being the son of GOD, how long in time has this been for? Example, in scripture it states that GOD created Jesus before the creation of the world, but for how long was this? how long was Jesus in heaven with GOD before his first coming to earth?

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Jesus was NOT created. He is the second "Person" of the God head. God is a Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1. "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth." John 1:14

So, Jesus was the One made flesh and dwelt among mankind. He is therefore the Word, and the Word IS God--not a created being. Calling Jesus created is false teaching.

Jesus, in giving admonition and reproofs to the "seven congregations" at the end of the first century (Rev 1:20), said: "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen (Jesus Christ) says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."(Rev 3:14) Those saying that Jesus was without beginning, was not created, are saying that Jesus was telling a lie, that his "testimony" was unreliable. These are, in effect, are likening him to a court witness, whose testimony is untrustworthy, undependable.

These ones are saying that their "testimony" is more accurate than Jesus himself, that it has more weight than his. That borders on blasphemy. These disregard what Proverbs 8, whereby it says: "Jehovah himself produced ("produced", Hebrew qanah, online interlinear Scripture4all, "Yahweh he-acquired-me", also see Genesis 4:1 in online interlinear Scripture4all, where Eve says that she "acquired" ,or produced a "man", not "possessed" a man) me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."(Prov 8:22) Hence, Jesus was "produced", having a "beginning".

This is in harmony with Micah 5:2 concerning Jesus as the Messiah, which says: "And you, O Beth´le·hem Eph´ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite ("time indefinite", Hebrew ‘oh·lam, although the Hebrew word ‘oh·lam is rendered by some as “forever,” according to Hebrew authority William Gesenius, it means “hidden time, i. e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite.” Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament adds: “With the preposition ‘ad, the word can mean ‘into the indefinite future.’”—Compare Deuteronomy 23:3; 1 Samuel 1:22)." Thus, Jesus was "from the days of time indefinite", not forever, having been "produced" by God.

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Guestman said:

Jesus, in giving admonition and reproofs to the "seven congregations" at the end of the first century (Rev 1:20), said: "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen (Jesus Christ) says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."(Rev 3:14) Those saying that Jesus was without beginning, was not created, are saying that Jesus was telling a lie, that his "testimony" was unreliable. These are, in effect, are likening him to a court witness, whose testimony is untrustworthy, undependable.

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Unfortunately, you misunderstand Rev. 3:14 horribly. The beginning of the creation of God does not mean that Christ was the first creature that God made, but rather the first cause of the creation. This is confirmed by the same Biblical author in his Gospel.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Revelation 3:14 means just what Jesus said, that he is "the beginning (Greek arche, "original", online interlinear Scripture4all ) of the creation by God." The word "beginning" means "start, commencement".(Encarta Dictionary) Thus, Jesus was the "start, commencement" of the "creation by God." At Matthew 19:4, concerning Adam and Eve, Jesus told the Jews: "Did you not read that he who created them from the beginning ("original", Greek arche, online interlinear Scripture4all ) made them male and female." Hence, Adam and Eve are our "original" parents, having a "beginning".

Thus, Jesus was the "original" creation by God, the "firstborn of all creation".(Col 1:15) Jesus is the one through whom God made all things, and that is why he is called God's "master worker" at Proverbs 8:30. God is rightly called the Creator, whereas this title is never addressed to Jesus.(Isa 40:25; 45:18)

Guestman said:

The word "beginning" means "start, commencement".(Encarta Dictionary)

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Sorry Guestman. We do not define Greek words by referring to English dictionaries. Greek words are properly defined by Greek lexicons. Notice definitions 2 & 3.

αρχή

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archē

Thayer Definition:

1) beginning, origin

2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

4) the extremity of a thing

4a) of the corners of a sail

5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

5a) of angels and demons

Part of Speech: noun feminine

Citing in TDNT: 1:479, 81

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Even the lexicon you cited establishes that the Greek word "arche" means "beginning, origin, the first person or thing in a series." Thus, Jesus is the "beginning" or "the first person...in a series" of God's creation. That is why the apostle Paul wrote that Jesus is the "image of the invisible God."(Col 1:15) An image is not the same as the original, but only exactly resembles it, being it's likeness. Hence, Jesus so precisely resembles God in his outstanding quality of love (1 John 4:8), that he told his disciples that "he that has seen me has seen the Father also."(John 14:9)

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible says of arche: "a commencement...beginning...first." The same Greek word is used at Revelation 1:8 and 21:6, and stands out in contrast with "end" or "ending". At Colossians 1:18, Paul says that Jesus "is the beginning (Greek arche) of the firstborn from the dead". What does this mean ? That he was the "first cause" from the dead ? Or that Jesus was the first person or "beginning" of God's resurrecting of ones from the dead for everlasting life ?

At Matthew 24:8, after giving some features of the ' sign of his presence', Jesus stated that "all these things are a beginning (Greek arche) of pangs of distress." The features of "nation against nation....food shortages....earthquakes in one place after another" would be the "commencement" of Jesus "presence". Hence, Jesus was God's "commencement" of his creative ability, the "beginning". He is the first one caused by God, but not the "First Cause" as used in the dictionary, or God.

Otherwise, he would not have said that "I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things."(John 8:28) He further said that "just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me."(John 6:57) If Jesus were God, would he "live because of the Father" ? To the contrary, he could live without the Father. However, according to the context, his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice.

Guestman,

If the best you can do is cite Scripture that has nothing to do with this discussion, you have only demonstrated how bankrupt your position really is. You have also completely ignored John 1:3 which says that "all" things were made through Him. That verse also goes on to say that without Him was not anything made that was made. This fits definition 2 & 3 of Thayer's Lexicon as provided in a previous post. You can ignore these things, but you're not fooling anyone but yourself.

Nomad,

It is of interest that you said that "if the best you can do is cite scripture that has nothing to do with this discussion, you have only demonstrated how bankrupt your position really is". When Jesus was tempted by Satan, what did he do ? Did he not quote scripture to him three times from the book of Deuteronomy !(Matt 4:1-10) If indeed the quoting of scripture "bankrupt" me, then I guess that Jesus too is "bankrupt." There is nothing of greater authority than the Bible, regardless what you say.

John 1:3 says that "all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." Does this mean that Jesus is the Creator or God ? No. Rather, this means that Jesus, as God's "master worker", ' through him all things (heavens and the earth) came into existence', just as an owner of construction company builds through his supervisors. Have you not read John 3:17, whereby Jesus said that "God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him." Thus, Jesus, is in effect, the "tool" that God used in redeeming mankind from sin and death, going "through him".

And have you not read where the apostle Peter told the Jews on Pentecost: "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·rene´, a man publicly shown by God to you through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know, "(Acts 2:22) Did going "through" Jesus make him God ? If that is the case, then I guess that going "through powerful works and portents" also means that the "powerful works and portents" are God. God worked "through"(or by means of) Jesus to perform "powerful works", to accomplish his will. A door is what people go "through" to enter the home. It is not the home.

Jesus was God's "servant", not God, for Matthew 12:17, 18 says of Jesus, "that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet (at Isaiah 42:1), who said: “Look! My servant whom I chose, my beloved, whom my soul approved! I will put my spirit upon him, and what justice is he will make clear to the nations." Can a "servant" of God be God ? Hence, Jesus is God's servant, the "only-begotten Son of God".(John 3:18)

musicworld said:

Hi to all Christians When we speak of Jesus being the son of GOD, how long in time has this been for? Example, in scripture it states that GOD created Jesus before the creation of the world, but for how long was this? how long was Jesus in heaven with GOD before his first coming to earth?

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Christians know the story about Jesus Christ and His birth, which can be read in Matthew Ch 1& 2: and also in Mark, Luke and John. We read all about Him in the New Testament and how He is the only way to receive Eternal Life. We read about His marvelous works and the miracles He performed when He was alive and on this Earth. We read about the hideous torture and Him being put to death by those who did not know who He really was. But, do we, as true Christians really know who Jesus Christ really was? Who was this man and where did He come from?









It is very hard for us to comprehend some of life’s true Mysteries. The reason for this is that when we were born we were only born with the ability to comprehend as one who has only one spirit. That spirit was the only spirit that God provided for us at birth. The only capability we have with the Spirit of Man, the one given at birth, is to understand and comprehend physical things.



As we continue through our life’s journey and we Accept Jesus Christ as our lord and Savior and we receive Him in our life, we then receive another Spirit. As this occurs we now have possessed a Spirit that is Spiritual in nature and will help us understand Spiritual things. And after we receive Jesus Christ in us we can understand Spiritual things and this will help us understand who the real Jesus Christ really was.













What we need to do is to go back in time. Go back before the beginning of all creation. For creation to have occurred there had to be a Creator. There had to be someone who had thought out all of the creation process and the future in a very sophisticated plan. One who would design everything to perfection? There had to be someone or something beyond the capability of mere human existence to be able to create such an environment.



It is hard for a human mind to really comprehend that there was such a Creator Being and it is also hard for we mere humans to understand how they had no beginning and how they will have no ending. How they have always been and how they always will be in existence. And I say they because there were two of them.


In Genesis ch 1: verse 26; we read;



26; “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness”.



This God head said that they would make man in the likeness of them. In other words, they would make man in their image. In the same shape and form they would look if they would materialize, if they would present themselves from a Spiritual form to a physical form, they would look like we do. We are made in their image.



Now let us continue the investigation as to who the real Jesus Christ is.



Where the statement is made “let us make man in our image” was made, it was made from more than one being, but not three. In the beginning of all things there was never a Trinity nor were there three mentioned anywhere in scripture.






Jesus Christ is not a two person entity. When he was born in a human form, He was one person, not two. When God the Father sent His Spirit like a Dove on Jesus that was God’s Spirit, not some other third person entity.




Now, when Jesus Christ died His Spirit, His Holy Spirit, which He could not give until His death, was not some other entity or some other person, it was still Jesus Christ, but He was in a Spiritual state then. There is no trinity or three person God Head as has been taught. There is only two God Heads, God the Father and God the Son, who is the Holy Spirit. Satan wants one to believe in a trinity and he has done a good job in having people believe this fable.




To continue the investigation on whom the real Jesus is let us go to John ch 8: verses 53 thru58;



Jesus was talking to the Pharisees to who did not believe Him in that day. He was trying to explain to them who he was but they were the ones who supposedly knew everything and would not listen to Him. Now in verse 54;



The Pharisees asked Jesus, who at this time was in human form this question.



53; “Are you greater than our father Abraham, who is dead”?

54; “Jesus answered, if I honor Myself, My honor is nothing: It is my Father that honors me; of whom you say He is your God”:

55; “Yet you have not known Him; but I know Him, shall I be a liar like you: but I know Him and keep his sayings”.





The Pharisees did not believe Jesus to be the Christ. So Jesus asked them how they could believe in the Father if they did not believe Him.



56; “your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he say it and was glad”.





Jesus was telling them that Abraham was glad to see Him (Jesus Christ) and to be with Him. But how could this be. Notice what they said to Jesus.



57; “Then said the Jews unto Him, you are not yet fifty years old, how have you seen Abraham”?



The Jews could not understand how Jesus knew Abraham. Notice verse 58;



58; “Jesus said unto them, before Abraham was, I AM”.



What is Jesus Christ telling the Jews here? Why would He make such a statement?



Let us go to Exodus ch 3: verse 14;



14; “And God said unto Moses. I AM that I AM, and He said, this shall you say unto the Children of Israel, I Am has sent me unto you”.



As I have stated, before anything was created there were two beings. One was the Father and the other would become the Son, Jesus Christ. He was the one who would become the spokesman in the Old Testament. He was the one who created all things, the one who gave Moses the 10 Commandments. The spokesman all through the Old Testament was the one who would become the Son, Jesus Christ. He was the Logos, the Spokesman.



Now to Isaiah ch 43: verses 13; 15;





13; “Yes, before the day was, I Am and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I am God”.

14; “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; for your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their Nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the Ships”.

15; “1 am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King”.



Now to John ch 1;verse 1,2,3,4:



1; “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God”,



Notice that there were only two beings, the Word, Jesus Christ and the father, God. They are as one because they have the same mind and thoughts. But there is not three, only two.



2; “The same (Jesus Christ) was in the beginning with God”.

3; “All things were made by Him, (Jesus Christ) and without Him was not anything made that was made”.

4; “In Him (Jesus Christ) was Life and the life was the LIGHT of men”.



Yes, the Real Jesus was the one who did all the work, all the Creation in the Old Testament, who later became born a physical man in the New Testament. Until one understands this they cannot understand what Jesus Christ is all about. He gave the 10 Commandments to Moses, He gave the statutes and Judgments for all men to live and abide by. God does not make mistakes. He did not establish the Laws and then decide to do away with then because He believed He made a mistake. If anyone teaches this then they are above all very deceived. All of the Laws of God are still binding on mankind today and they will be forever. But man has broken those laws and God is now angry and is now beginning His punishment phase on mankind.





The only Law that was nailed to the Cross was the sacrificing of Animals. That was because Jesus Christ was our sacrifice. We now have Him to go to and ask for forgiveness of our sins. We don’t have to sacrifice animals for forgiving of our sins because that was what was nailed to the cross, not the Laws of God. Those Laws are binding forever and ever. The real Jesus was the one who gave the 10 Commandments to Moses, why would He do away with them. The truth is He didn’t, man did.