A Biblical New Testament Church

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH
I spent two years studying the New Testament to see what it had to say about the New Testament Church. A lot of my study was informed by the original Greek so as to avoid modern English impositions in the meaning of words. I wanted a complete picture so I looked at everything.

When I had completed my study which included reading over 40 books, I realised that we had strayed far from God's word, so this is what I started talking about, not from the perspective of this is what you have to do but more a case of this is what the word teaches.

Here are some of the subjects I covered and my conclusions. Space does not allow me to post everything.

FOUNDATIONS
The church was birthed on the day of Pentecost with three things. One, unity. They were together, together. Two, prayer. They stayed in the upper room to await the coming of the Holy Spirit and to pray. Three, the power of the Holy Spirit. They were all filled with the spirit and spoke in other tongues. I believe we need all three to be an effective church. In most churches prayer is the least supported activity and most of them are prayers for God to help us or bless us. In other words we are in it for what we can get out of it.

DAILY LIVING
The met daily in the temple (they were Jews) and from house to house for fellowship, apostles teaching, prayer and meals together. When you do this it is hard to not like someone and not to care for someone. And be aware of their needs. Generally Sunday morning meetings are a barrier to this happening.

Their learning was the dialogue method in home groups, not the monologue method as we have today. Every one could share what they wanted without fear of censure.

THEIR AUTHORITY
They had two. Jesus himself whom they preached and his word. They had no traditions to draw on and no denomination headquarters. Although the Jerusalem church were Jews and went the synagogue as well, it did not determine their way of life under the leadership of Christ. There was no New Testament so instruction was verbal or through the gifts of the Spirit. Learning was by example and the Holy Spirit’s proceeding word.

LEADERSHIP
The New Testament is conclusive that leadership was by a plurality of Elders who were selected from within the congregation they were part of. Not once do you read of “pastor” leading the church and certainly not one that is brought in from outside the assembly. The word “pastor’ in fact does not appear in the Greek, it is shepherd. The word “pastor” is Latin and was introduced later the same as the Greek for “bishop“ is ‘pappa’ and was later changed to pope.

There is no evidence that the Elders were paid and there is evidence that they were not.

MONEY
Tithing was an unknown concept for the New Testament Church. They gave as the Lord prospered them and they gave when there were needs. The three main ones were widows and orphans, those experiencing famine and the financing of apostles whilst they were travelling and could not work. Once they settled they supported themselves.

No one was paid a salary and no money was spent on putting up buildings.

EVANGELISM
Three methods were used. The Lord added daily so it was supernaturally in response to the way they lived and cared for each other. The second was by the leading of the Holy Spirit telling them where to go and to whom. So that was supernatural. The third was preaching with signs following so that was supernatural as well. Today evangelism is about 25 on the agenda, which is probably why the church is not growing.

MINISTRY
This was by anointing not appointing. Either Christ gave you a ministry or you didn’t have one. (Ephesians 4v11). Most ministry today is by appointing from head office and devoid of anointing.

These five ministries are ministries not positions. Your authority was in the context of your ministry. For example, Paul was an apostle which means “sent one”. When he was sent by the church to preach the gospel and form a new assembly, he had full authority and anointing to do so. When he wasn’t doing this he was just apart of the fellowship, as he said I come AMONG YOU, not over you.

The ministry group was specific to carry out their ministry and the Elders were a specific group to oversee the local assembly. The ministry group was not superior to the Elders as they had different roles. Not once in the whole of the New Testament does it mention “a pastor” as leader of the assembly and as I have talked to people about this they have always fallen back on denominational “tradition” to support such a concept and they usually twist scripture and circumstances to support their unbiblical concept.

THE PRIESTHOOD OF ALL BELIEVERS
Many churches talk about this and say they do it but in most cases it is minimal assent. In the New Testament Church, everyone was a capable minister of the new covenant, probably because they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. At the same time it says that we are ordained to bring forth fruit. The word “ordination” in scripture has nothing to do with ministry,. It is to do with character and humility. In the New Testament, there are no words used to describe clergy or the clergy/laity divide. It was an unknown concept.

In Corinthians Paul says that when you come together, everyone has, not just a select few. What they had was the gifts of the spirit, not man inspired lectures and programmes. I was in a church in England for 10 years that had no pastor, no platform, no pulpit, no preacher and no programme.

We all arrived and sat until the Holy Spirit began the meeting, using one and another to contribute in various ways. One meeting lasted six hours. Frank Viola says that the appointment of paid leaders sounded the death knell of the priesthood of all believers as in most cases the chosen few perform up front and the rest are the cheer squad. As a result, most of the congregation never grow because they are not giving according to their ministry.

CHURCH
In the New Testament there was only one church in each town. The church at Corinth; the church at Philippi; the church at Laodicea etc. Paul castigated the Corinthian church for their division (denominations). The times that I have heard that denominations are of God are totally incredulous. Jesus prayed that we would be one. Denominations divide, not unite.

Jesus said he would build his church. That being the case we need to know how. Most of the time church leadership is building their church and the gates of hell are prevailing against it as a result. Until we confess our sin of ignoring Jesus and the Holy Spirit and submit ourselves to his will and purpose, nothing will change.

I hasten to add that churches in third world countries are submitting and they are the churches that are making an impact with converts being added daily. It is only westernised, self sufficient, smug churches that are losing the plot.

COMMITMENT
The New Testament Church was totally committed to their cause. They gave freely without consideration for their own needs and they accepted that dying daily was the routine. For some that even meant martyrdom.

The New Testament talks about sacrifice and death, being shunned and even killed. It does not talk about prosperity of finances. It talks about prosperity of commitment and sacrifice. They consider themselves to be their brother’s keeper. We usually leave that to the government to take care of.

They were very happy to take up their cross daily if it meant that Jesus was exalted and the good news was passed on to others. Being a believer in Jesus meant that it was a full time ministry for everyone, not just a select few who had been to Bible College.

These are a few of my favourite themes (apologies to Mary Poppins). In all there are many, many more which will appear on my website once I have developed one.
 

TallMan

New Member
Jul 20, 2007
391
2
0
59
Hi, I believe Jesus only set up one church, "all were filled", so all received all, Jew and Gentile and Peter who was given "the keys" declared
at tthe outset that this promise (the outpouring of the Spirit, speaking in tongues) was to all whom God would call - Acts 2:4, 33, 39 - perfect!
- no doubt or confusion!

Jesus is not schizophrenic or a serial adulterer, he got it right from the start, and he is returning soon for those that have been faithful stewards.

Sadly, man has de-nominated what he nominated.
I hope you will do as I have done and join a church like the one you read about.

Also in meetings we operate as God details in 1 Corinthians 14.

"If you know these things, happyare you if you do them" (John 13:17)
 

evanom

New Member
May 8, 2010
96
3
0
50
Bogota Colombia
Honestly it all sound likes one more denomination to add to the bunch (considering the vast amount of personal New Testament interpretation).
 

Surf Rider

New Member
Dec 17, 2009
126
8
0
in the kingdom of heaven right now
The church was birthed on the day of Pentecost with three things.

I must dictionarily [sic] and scripturally disagree with that statement. There are two seen problems with it. First, the baptism of the Spirit is commonly equated to be the birthing by the Spirit. This is not correct. Baptism and birth are two wholly different things. Different dictionary definitions. Second, the scriptures state that: "And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (Joh 20:22) Scripture clearly states that Christ gave them the Spirit before Pentecost. The scriptures also teach that to be born of God is to be the requirement to be of the spiritual church, ie, the body of Christ. You cannot be of the body of Christ (spiritual) and not be born of God. This does open the debate regarding receiving the Spirit and being born of the Spirit. Again, scripture must be used. That is a periphery issue, yet nonetheless, important to the extant topic. However, for many it is not needed to be dealt with for this topic, and thus it will not be dealt with here.

Suffice it to say that the scriptures clearly state that the church was born before Pentecost when Christ gave them the Spirit. By scriptural definition of these terms "church" and "receiving the Spirit", this is true and accurate. I must therefore disagree with your statement that the church was born on Pentecost. It was increased greatly in number on Pentecost due to the fruits of the manifestation of the Spirit bapising them as prophecied in the OT and by Christ himself in the NT. And that is a wholly different thing than birth.

This is also substantiated by the following: "to whom He also presented Himself living after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them through forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me. For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Christ breathed on them, stating "receive you the Spirit", and Christ stated that they would be baptized by the Spirit some days hence of His giving them the Spirit. (Acts 1:3-5)


They stayed in the upper room to await the coming of the Holy Spirit and to pray.

The first part of your statement is incorrect according to the scriptures. The second part of it is correct according to the sciptures. Nowhere does it state in the scriptures that they were waiting for the coming of the Spirit, that I see. If I am wrong, please corect me so that I might learn in this. Thank you. In fact, they had already received it firsthand from Christ Himself, as the scriptrues clearly state. And they were in prayer, as the scriptures clearly state. To then conclude that they were waiting to receive the Spirit is a fully incorrect statement. It is an assumption. It may be correct, and it may not be correct. To posit it as scripturally accurate and a scriptural truth, goes beyond permissability and spiritual parameters.

Again, we can look at the Acts 1:3-5 verses and see this. They were told that they would be baptized by the Spirit some days hence. we are told that Christ came and saw them after this event, in which was the overflowing nets and Peter jumping into the water event. We can look at the numbers in the word of God, and see that when it states that Christ was seen by them 40 days. We also see in the passage in John 20, that it was the evening of the same day that Christ appeared to Mary, right? And we know what day that was. So Christ's subsequent appearances to them was after He had given them the Spirit. This ties into the word of God when it states that after His resurrection, they then understood the things that Christ had spoken before His passion, which they had not understood beforehand. it was the Spirit that was opening their spiritual eyes. They had received the Spirit from Christ on that specific day, and thus their spiritual understanding and grasp of the scriptures was changed by receiving the Spirit. Christ told them this would happen, in John 14. And we have the word state that this happened, with statements such as "and they remembered what he [Christ] had said beforehand". The scriptures make the statement, and then give the fulfilling of it. These things are very clear in the word of God. We see that Pentecost came on the 50th day after the last sabbath of the Passover Feast. The math is simple. So we know how many days they had from receiving the Spirit from Christ, and the baptism of the Spirit on Pentecost. We can assume that they were waiting for the baptism, but that is indeed an assumption. As such, to avow that it is truth, is indeed unacceptable both spiritually and logically. Scripturally it is also untenable in such a degree of statement: fact.

When studying the word of God, it is fully problematic to read the teachings of others and couple that with the word of God, (Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, English, Latin, German, etc.).

It would appear that in the very outset of your theorem, marksman, you have two faults that are clearly seen simply by reading the word of God itself. That which follows is subsequently quite suspect.

I will not post any further working through the initial post of this thread, as it should be self evident that sufficient has be evidenced for all readers of said initial post to beware the content of it: some is correct, and some isn't. A little salt makes the whole glass of water salty. This is a spiritual truth indeed. It would behoove the readers of the initial post to distill out the salt by the word of God, then the rest of it may be fully enjoyed and profited by. Until then, we are merely self poisoning ourselves in a deleterious manner. Such spiritual sequacity [sic] is contrary to the express injunctions of the word of God.

That being said, much of it was very scripturally correct. Good! Refreshing to see.


"Let no man deceive you....."
"All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work."
"Rightly divide the word of truth."

Thanks for posting, marksman. I enjoyed much of your post.

And everything that I post, reader beware! Use the word of God correctly, for none of us are perfect in our understanding or in our speech (posts on a forum!).
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
I would like to address the usage of non-scriptural phrases and words that are not used by God, and the carelessness with which we tend to throw them about. Phrases like "spiritual chuch" , "birthing by the spirit", and other theological formations are attempts to clarify what the user does not apprehend, yet pretends to do so. It is the hallmark of apostasy to add to God's word what is not recorded in the Originals. Ecclesia is in the Original Autographs, "Church" is not. The common acceptance of making Church a proper noun and all-encompassing of the calling out of His elect is to be pointed out here:

YLT Ac 18:22 and having come down to Caesarea, having gone up, and having saluted the assembly (ecclesia), he went down to Antioch.

YLT Ac 19:32 Some indeed, therefore, were calling out one thing, and some another, for the assembly (ecclesia) was confused, and the greater part did not know for what they were come together;

YLT Ac 19:41 and these things having said, he dismissed the assembly (ecclesia).

YLT Ac 19:39 'And if ye seek after anything concerning other matters, in the legal assembly (ecclesia) it shall be determined;

Three different "churches" are mentioned here. One is the elect of God, one is a group of silversmiths and tradesmen, and the last is a legal body. They are all "churches" from Holy Spirit standpoint. It represents groups of people called out from the rest for a purpose. It is not a proper noun, nor is it limited to God's elect. Church is not a scripturally sound word, but interpretation gone bad.

The whole premise of this topic, "A New Testament Church" is founded upon misunderstanding God's word, and the false stucture of religious reasoning. Go back to the Originals and see that ecclesia is not a unique word for believers only, and the word "Church" carries with it a whole lot of baggage that prevents a true understanding of the Father's plan for mankind.

Discard the word Church from your vocabulary, it is not God's word, it is man's. It will only lead to more and more confusion for all who desire truth in it's purest form, and it most certainly is not a point to debate since it is not scriptural to begin with.

fivesense

P.S. I hope that this is "correct enough" for skyangel. I do not want to be found not " using God's word correctly".
 

evanom

New Member
May 8, 2010
96
3
0
50
Bogota Colombia
Discard the word Church from your vocabulary, it is not God's word, it is man's. It will only lead to more and more confusion for all who desire truth in it's purest form, and it most certainly is not a point to debate since it is not scriptural to begin with.

Agreed. "Church" is a runaway transliteration.
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
Agreed. "Church" is a runaway transliteration.


The transliteration is "ecclesia", how it is pronounced in Greek, and put into readable form.
The translation,or, idiomatic expression used in interpretation, is "church".
And I agree with you agreeing with me. (that was tough)

fivesense
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I alwasy thought that was when the Church was created.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I alwasy thought that was when the Church was created.

This is the most misquoted, missused and missunderstood line in the bible, it is used by many denominations to justify there existence, It is not Peter that Jesus was going to build His church ( ecclesia, called out opones ) on but revelation. Revelation is the one thing that is lacking in mans church, for it is filled with mens opinions, preachers do not wish to go without a cermon so they make them up with their own heads, instead of asking God what He has to say, they are afraid that they may have to go in one day, and say, There is nothing to preach to day, lest all the people might leave. This is also the reason christans, become stagnant in there walk, they are alwqays looking to the past, God lives in the now, not yesterday or tomorrow, your wake up prayer should be, " God what is your will for today".

In His Love
 

Templar81

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
854
17
0
UK
What's the proper meaning then?

It has always made sense to me. Peter was the first to recognise Jesus so he was made head Apostle and he was the first Bishop of Rome (though he didn't hold the exact tile he did do the job) and he was given the keys of heaven and the authority of loosing and binding.

Matthew 16:19
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is why Peter is often depicted as the doorkeeper of Heaven.

This is a litteral udnerstanding. Peter has primacy over the other Apostles.
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
What's the proper meaning then?

It has always made sense to me. Peter was the first to recognise Jesus so he was made head Apostle and he was the first Bishop of Rome (though he didn't hold the exact tile he did do the job) and he was given the keys of heaven and the authority of loosing and binding.

Matthew 16:19
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is why Peter is often depicted as the doorkeeper of Heaven.

This is a litteral udnerstanding. Peter has primacy over the other Apostles.


If a careful reading of the Book of the acts of the Apostles is made, it will be noticed that James, the Lord's brother, usurped that position of authority.

Ga 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he (Peter) did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
.
Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen (nations), and they unto the circumcision

That Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom, and that upon the Lord's departure from earth, he was poweful to take his rightful place, as the day of Pentecost proves. That is indisputable. But the continued stubbornness and rejection of the offer of the Kingdom caused him to fall to his weakness, and James came forward to take the helm and lead the Jewish believers. It will be noticed that while Peter grasped grace as out of heaven to a degree, James and the others did not. The cross of Christ and it's efficacy were not within their apprehensions, it was a stumblingblock. Peter was forced to go to the Gentiles, and the one he went to, Cornelius, was already a Jewish proselyte to the Law. Eventually all Twelve relinquished their right to evangelize the nations to Paul, since it was obvious they were not capable. And God made it thus.

fivesense
 

evanom

New Member
May 8, 2010
96
3
0
50
Bogota Colombia
What's the proper meaning then?

It has always made sense to me. Peter was the first to recognise Jesus so he was made head Apostle and he was the first Bishop of Rome (though he didn't hold the exact tile he did do the job) and he was given the keys of heaven and the authority of loosing and binding.

This is a litteral udnerstanding. Peter has primacy over the other Apostles.

These are all very catholic explanations, of course. But how about if we set aside religions paradigms and dogma for a minute and see what the Bible has to say about this (or as catholics call it: sola scriptura :eek: ).

Just about every typography or symbolism related to a "rock" in the Old Testament is referring to Yeshua.

Dt 32:4 [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

Dt 32:15 . ...then he forsook God [which] made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Dt 32:18 Of the Rock [that] begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.


Dt 32:30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up? Dt 32:31 For their rock [is] not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves [being] judges.

Ps 18:2 The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower.

Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed [be] my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

God is like a Rock: powerful, strong, firm, solid, resistant, a good trustworthy foundation. Is Peter (or any man) like God? Let's see:

Matthew 16:23 "But (Jesus) turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan! Thou art an offence unto me!..."

Mt 17:16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Mt 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?


Lk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat. Lk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Lk 22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. Lk 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

So is Peter a rock? Powerful, strong, firm, solid, resistant, a good trustworthy foundation? Is any man?

Does God change? Is He different in the Old Testament from what He is in the New? Is He not a rock anymore being this a title of corrupt man now?

Yeshua gave Simon the name Cephas, which means a stone, piece of rock. Then he proceeds to say "ON THIS ROCK i will establish my church". He was talking about Himself.


Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
(is Peter??)



 

Grat

New Member
Feb 18, 2008
58
2
0
62
Sydney, Australia
NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH
I spent two years studying the New Testament to see what it had to say about the New Testament Church. A lot of my study was informed by the original Greek so as to avoid modern English impositions in the meaning of words. I wanted a complete picture so I looked at everything....

CHURCH
In the New Testament there was only one church in each town. The church at Corinth; the church at Philippi; the church at Laodicea etc. Paul castigated the Corinthian church for their division (denominations). The times that I have heard that denominations are of God are totally incredulous. Jesus prayed that we would be one. Denominations divide, not unite.

Jesus said he would build his church. That being the case we need to know how. Most of the time church leadership is building their church and the gates of hell are prevailing against it as a result. Until we confess our sin of ignoring Jesus and the Holy Spirit and submit ourselves to his will and purpose, nothing will change.

I hasten to add that churches in third world countries are submitting and they are the churches that are making an impact with converts being added daily. It is only westernised, self sufficient, smug churches that are losing the plot....

Really great. Wonderful to see. If you haven't come across Frank Viola in your reading, make it a point to include him. He did a wonderful book with George Barna called "Pagan Christianity" that's definitely worth a read.

Only one point I’d like to see modified, that was the bit about only one church in each city. As the normal “local” gathering of believers would have been under 30 (due to space limitations) and probably normally closer to 10-15, when Paul referred to the church or churches in a city, he would have simply be referring to the conglomerate formed by all of these little groups combining. I’m sure that’s what you meant, but with most people’s blinkers from “modern” Christianity, they may misinterpret what you say to indicate everyone has to be a "memeber" of one central church.

I’ve been down a similar line to you over the last few years and have come to many of the same conclusions. I’m actually in the process of sorting out the conclusions myself and some friends came to and putting them up on our Blog http://www.heretics-r-us.org . Feel free to have a poke around (It’ll be another month or so I think till I make the wiki live with a lot of the information) .

Grat
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Only one point I’d like to see modified, that was the bit about only one church in each city. As the normal “local” gathering of believers would have been under 30 (due to space limitations) and probably normally closer to 10-15, when Paul referred to the church or churches in a city, he would have simply be referring to the conglomerate formed by all of these little groups combining. I’m sure that’s what you meant, but with most people’s blinkers from “modern” Christianity, they may misinterpret what you say to indicate everyone has to be a "memeber" of one central church.

Grat

Sorry it has taken some time to reply. i have been living it up in the big smoke in honour of my wife's &*%^* birthday. Yes, what you say is a correct understanding of my findings. I believe they met from house to house (not in the so and so pentecostal or baptist church). All the people meeting in the houses constituted the church in that town. We read that they met daily in houses but only occasionally as a whole church so that wipes out the weekly Sunday morning meeting in a public bulding if you claim scripture as your guide.

I don't believe you are a member of a church. You are the church and a member of the body of Christ, which makes us all one in Christ. Whatever you call yourself, being a member of his body means that you and I accept everyone on that basis. If people want to make an issue of doctrinal differences that is there problem. Jesus did not say "by your doctrine people will know that you are my disciple." He said "by your love people will know that you are my disciple."

Sad thing is that most of the time we judged by people's doctrine, not their love.

I am a great fan of Frank Viola. Have read and own all his books. He tells the truth that is why he is not popular unless of course you want to know the truth.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
86
0
63
North Carolina
Sorry it has taken some time to reply. i have been living it up in the big smoke in honour of my wife's &*%^* birthday. Yes, what you say is a correct understanding of my findings. I believe they met from house to house (not in the so and so pentecostal or baptist church). All the people meeting in the houses constituted the church in that town. We read that they met daily in houses but only occasionally as a whole church so that wipes out the weekly Sunday morning meeting in a public bulding if you claim scripture as your guide.

I don't believe you are a member of a church. You are the church and a member of the body of Christ, which makes us all one in Christ. Whatever you call yourself, being a member of his body means that you and I accept everyone on that basis. If people want to make an issue of doctrinal differences that is there problem. Jesus did not say "by your doctrine people will know that you are my disciple." He said "by your love people will know that you are my disciple."

Sad thing is that most of the time we judged by people's doctrine, not their love.

I am a great fan of Frank Viola. Have read and own all his books. He tells the truth that is why he is not popular unless of course you want to know the truth.

Nice posts Marksman and Grat. The whole of the scripture's encouragement seems to place much more importance on how we greet than on how we meet.
smile.gif
 

Paul

Member
Aug 19, 2006
529
20
18
76
marksman

And humans being human how long do you think it took for one small group to say, "Our teacher/leader is better than yours," "We follow the ways George teaches it," You read thoughout the letters from Paul about little disputes like this.
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
marksman

And humans being human how long do you think it took for one small group to say, "Our teacher/leader is better than yours," "We follow the ways George teaches it," You read thoughout the letters from Paul about little disputes like this.

I am not quite sure what you are alluding to here. I was looking for what they did right in my study as opposed to what they did wrong. Until you know what they did right, you can't know what they did wrong as you have to have some yardstick to make your judgments by.

The fellowship I have started is based on what they did right. If we end up doing something wrong, I will deal with it at the time. I see no need to anticipate problems before they happen. As a minister friend of mine taught, God guides a moving vessel, not one that is anchored in the dock.

I have learnt that fear is the darkroom where we develop our negatives. When we leave God to build HIS church we have nothing to fear.

Whatever we do wrong and I am sure we will, I don't see it as a problem. I see it as a learning experience because we do not mature in our succeses. We mature in our failures and I have had plenty of those.
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
NEW TESTAMENT ELDERS
“According to the New Testament concept of eldership, elders lead the church, teach and preach the word, protect the church from false teachers, exhort and admonish the saints in sound doctrine, visit the sick and pray, and judge doctrinal issues. In biblical terminology, elders shepherd, oversee, lead, and care for the local church.” [1]

From the verses I have listed, which cover all references in the New Testament, it is obvious that the oversight of the New Testament church is the province of Elders (plural). The word “Elder” in Greek simple means “elderly, older, senior” chronologically or advanced in age. Therefore Elders are the older men of the fellowship. This means that younger men cannot be Elders. Despite the overwhelming evidence to this fact, one of the leaders of my denomination said during a lecture on Eldership that the word Elder means older but a young person can be an Elder because he was made an Elder when he was 30. Apparently what the word of God said didn’t carry too much weight.

This same leader said that the passage in Timothy about Eldership qualifications doesn’t say you have to be older. It does say that your children have to obey their parents with proper respect and that they have to manage their household well. I happen to know that more than one leader in the movement have children that are quite rebellious and disrespectful. That doesn’t seem to matter if you are committed to denominational tradition. Seems like a case of we will move the goalposts to suit us if you fit our perception of perfection and devotion.

As Elders have to be the “husband of one wife”, they cannot be women and they have to be married if it is a requirement that they are husbands. Apart from the fact that “episkopos” which is the Greek word for overseer is masculine. Some commentators say that if a man has been divorced, he cannot be an Elder. In some church history writings it suggests that as a man gets older and fulfils the criteria for Eldership, he automatically becomes an Elder in the church. There are those who insist that the word husband is translated incorrectly, so I will let the Greek speak for itself. The Greek word that has been translated husband is “Aner” which means man, male, as contrasted with the generic anthropose which may refer to either sex. A man as distinguished from a woman or a child. A man as related to a woman, a husband. [2]

Bearing in mind that there was only one church in each town in the New Testament, and its rapid growth precipitated the need for Elders continually, so such a statement is understandable. Our problem is we look at it from a cultural perspective which divides the church up into individual groups in each town who often never talk to each other, and are governed by their own leadership which is quite foreign to the New Testament and the New Testament church. This unscriptural practice I believe has resulted in making the conditions for Eldership a man made tradition that we can control to fit it into a narrow concept of Eldership rather than a practical need to facilitate a growing church and a means of recognizing and making use of the wisdom that an older man has. To some degree this has arisen because of the cult of youth that we have in society and sadly to say in the church as well. The fact that so many “young” pastors are appointed tells us that we don’t rate wisdom very highly in the leadership stakes. For most people wisdom comes with age not enthusiasm.

PASTOR, WHERE ARE YOU?
In all these verses there is not one mention of pastors. One has to ask why? I cannot imagine if pastors were in leadership of the New Testament church that the whole of scripture never mentions them once in this context. In fact the term ‘pastor’ is only mentioned once as a stand alone ministry (not position) in the New Testament in Ephesians 4 v 11 along with the other four ministries given by Christ to the church. If we are going to elevate the ministry of ‘pastor’ to leadership, then surely we should be doing the same with the other four ministries as there is no injunction that one ministry is more important than the other four and there is no evidence that only the pastoral gift included leadership qualifications. In fact, there is nothing to suggest that those with a pastoral ministry are leaders outside of an Eldership. Therefore if one is going to elevate a pastoral ministry to leadership, all five must receive the same treatment so a person with a teaching or evangelistic ministry should be in paid leadership the same as “the person with a pastoral ministry” bearing in mind that all five are needed to mature the church so a one man ministry is quite foreign in the context of the New Testament church. At the same time there is no indication that one man has all five ministries.

Just as an aside, I note from anecdotal evidence that the most common complaint I have hear about the “paid pastor” model bearing in mind that to pastor is to shepherd the flock, is that the last thing they seem to do is….shepherd the flock. It seems to be more of an administrative role with lots of organisation involved and lots of preaching. Getting down and dirty with the flock seems to be the last thing on their mind. I was told by one of these “paid pastors” that his denomination has an instruction that they were not to let members of the fellowship inside their houses for fear of their private lives being under scrutiny. The leadership of this denomination would not have lasted long in the New Testament church as they met in each others homes on a daily basis. Research in the USA by the George Barna Organisation showed that the one man paid pastor on average spends 5 minutes a day praying. That tells you a lot about their role in the church. I think CEO might be a better term. More important it tells us that the modern day western church doesn’t need God to run their affairs.

PASTORAL MINISTRY v PASTOR
From these verses, we are exposed to the pastoral ministry, as opposed to the position of ‘pastor’. The pastoral ministry is primarily referred to in the context of eldership, not as a separate stand alone position as we have in the church today. Not once was anyone called or addressed as ‘pastor’ in scripture or the New Testament church and no one referred to themselves as ‘Pastor Smith’. Any reference to anyone was in the context of their ministry i.e. Paul who is an Apostle, not Apostle Paul. Likewise today, we should be saying “let me introduce you to David. He has a pastoral ministry”. It is quite incorrect to say “let me introduce you to Pastor Dave”.

If fact in critical textual analysis, if there is no mention of something i.e. there are 770 verses in scripture that speak of marriage and not once does it mention homosexual relationships, therefore it is accepted and assumed that marriage is between a man and a woman and there is no place for Adam and Steve. As there is no mention of the position of pastor in the oversight of the church, then we have to assume that there was no such person.
 

[email protected]

Choir Loft
Apr 2, 2009
1,635
127
63
West Central Florida
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
re: The previous post by Marksman. Don't need to quote the post here, but I recommend its reading to everyone. I have gone over and over it and cannot find anything about it which is Biblically unsound. On the other hand, I cannot use the same principles to justify the 'traditional organization' of churches today.

If these things are true, then we as the body of Christ have strayed from the original design, from the original vision and from the original way of living. We have been caught in a trap of our own making.

What can we do?
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
re: The previous post by Marksman. Don't need to quote the post here, but I recommend its reading to everyone. I have gone over and over it and cannot find anything about it which is Biblically unsound. On the other hand, I cannot use the same principles to justify the 'traditional organization' of churches today.

If these things are true, then we as the body of Christ have strayed from the original design, from the original vision and from the original way of living. We have been caught in a trap of our own making.What can we do?

Since I discovered these truths in scripture, I have been "church watching". It is noticable that we may be experiencing the next move of the Holy Spirit as there appears to be an abandoning of organised religion which is being replaced by organic religion where people meet in the home to experience God for themselves without the control of ördained" leadership. I read about one church in India that was meeting in homes that was 100,000 strong.

I believe God in his graciousness gives us time to embrace what he wants, but if we make it clear we are not interested he will move on and work with those who will.

Personally, with this understanding of the word of God, I have realised that I am not a member of the church, I am a member of the body of Christ and when ever two or three of us meet together Jesus is there. That means the church is active in the cafe, the park, the home, the office, the workplace, in other words where two or three meet together. In this setting, we don't have to sing songs, listen to sermons or take up offerings. We spend the time sharing and caring, praying for each other, edifying each other from the word and eating together. In other words, our focus is knowing each other and knowing God.

In most Sunday morning meetings this does not happen because the all important thing is the programme. Nothing must stand in the way of that.

Before separating myself from organised religion, I did share these matters with the church but they rejected it outright because it did not fit in with denominational tradition, which as we know all too well, is more important than what the bible says.

Since I have done this, I have discovered that there other home groups in the town who have the same vision so I have got a feeling that we are going to see a development of this concept by the Lord amongst us. What I want to do is teach everyone that whenever two or three (or more) meet, that is the church in action regardless of where it is. What that means is that we can bless and edify one another any time of the day or night and we don't need a programme or someone ordained present and we can experience the prescence of God. This does not need hymn singing or sermons. just a willingness to learn from each other to esteem each other better than ourselves.