"The only fate is what we make for ourselves." True?

WaterSong · Feb 1, 2021

Renniks said:
I have. In few I've dived headfirst into this topic in the past and never found convincing evidence that God predetermined everything. Who is " we" in the verse you quoted? I say: "we" are people who have chosen to respond to God's drawing.

In context, Paul describes God’s plans to create a special people for Himself, cumulating in a restored Earth headed by the Messiah. The point of Ephesians 1:11 might be that God’s plans have been thought out. God is not acting capriciously or without thought. There is an ultimate purpose for what God is doing. This doesn’t mean that God does all things to ever happen. But it suggests the contrary, that things on Earth exist in opposition to God and “all” God’s acts are designed to rectify this situation.

How is that possible though? If God is Sovereign over his creation.
The "we" in that verse? Most likely those whom Jesus described. Those whom God called to himself. Consider that and then consider the scripture that informs, God does not hear the prayer of sinners.And that verse that tells us, the prayers of the lawless are an abomination to him.
God calls those whom he will to himself, so says God's word. Does that mean we have free will that would then overcome God's dominion over all things?

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God....

Consider this. God is the source behind, the creator of, all things that exist. Anything that exists is of and from God. Anything and everything both seen and unseen.
Therefore, is there anything that God does not control/have dominion over? When everything there is, is itself because God made it thus.
God gave man dominion over certain things as is taught to us in Genesis. Does this mean God abdicated his dominion over those things when he did that?

God is either fully Sovereign or he is not. He is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end, within all his creation and amid all that he created. However God has no end.
If we believe we are fully vested with the capacity to exercise our free will, is it then possible to still agree with those scriptures that tells us of God's preeminence, and that he predestines all things according to his will, and plan, and for his own glory?

WaterSong · Feb 1, 2021

Renniks said:
Of course not! Am I the "author" of my son's death if I make a law against playing in traffic and he does it anyway? Or if he steals a car, is the person who made the law against car theft the author of his theft and responsible for him being punished for his crime?

You're making a comparison unto the preeminent God and that of imperfect inferior humans.
If man's law did not exist, would someone who stole a car be guilty of car theft?

WaterSong · Feb 1, 2021

Renniks said:
Now, I will say that the Terminator movie quote takes things too far if taken literally. Obviously a whole lot that happens in the movies are beyond the control of the characters involved and many of them die because of things totally beyond their control, but, it seems to me that the movies also teach us an important lesson: That one person making the right choices in difficult situations can change the course of history. Joseph for example. Much of what he went through was totally beyond his control, but if I can borrow from yet another movie: “I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo.“So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

Isn't this really the only choice anyone has?

Absolutely.
It seems to me the matter of the OP asks us to consider the frame we operate in as humans and within that context that is the dominion of our Sovereign God. Is there anything Omniscience cannot know? Is there anything Omnipresence cannot know? Is there anything humans can overcome in God's Omnipotence?

Renniks · Feb 1, 2021

WaterSong said:
God is either fully Sovereign or he is not.

Obviously you mean something by "sovereign" other than what the word actually means. It doesn't mean all controlling. In fact, God being sovereign means he can choose to control as little or much as he pleases.
The sovereignty of God means that as ruler of the Universe, God is free and has the right to do whatever he wants. He is not bound or limited by the dictates of his created beings. Why people take a leap and think that this means he has to control every thought that passes through your mind is beyond me.

Renniks · Feb 1, 2021

WaterSong said:
God does not hear the prayer of sinners.

30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

This was a one man's opinion. Just because it's in scripture doesn't mean that you don't look at the context.

Now, watch this:
35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

This man in the same chapter was a sinner like all of us, and Jesus certainly heard him. In fact this is a perfect illustration of how salvation works. God calls, yes, but man has to respond with belief.

Renniks · Feb 1, 2021

WaterSong said:
You're making a comparison unto the preeminent God and that of imperfect inferior humans.
If man's law did not exist, would someone who stole a car be guilty of car theft?

Yes, because of God's law. But making a law does not determine who obeys it. Even the very fact of the word often used word: "obedience" in the Bible contradicts determinism.

Renniks · Feb 1, 2021

WaterSong said:
Absolutely.
It seems to me the matter of the OP asks us to consider the frame we operate in as humans and within that context that is the dominion of our Sovereign God. Is there anything Omniscience cannot know? Is there anything Omnipresence cannot know? Is there anything humans can overcome in God's Omnipotence?

Lol, then you don't believe God is all controlling after all.
Yes God knows all, yes God sees all, yes God has all power, no, God is not obligated to control everything... in fact it the Bible confirms that he gives man quite a bit of Dominion. Psalms says he has made man a little lower than the angels and given man Dominion over the beasts of the field and even the birds.

Truman · Feb 1, 2021

I do know He is awesome beyond words and our ability to comprehend.
He loves me and accepts me through my acceptance of what Jesus Messiah did for me on the cross.
He is my Father and I am His son.
For me, this is enough.

WaterSong · Feb 2, 2021

Renniks said:
Lol, then you don't believe God is all controlling after all.
Yes God knows all, yes God sees all, yes God has all power, no, God is not obligated to control everything... in fact it the Bible confirms that he gives man quite a bit of Dominion. Psalms says he has made man a little lower than the angels and given man Dominion over the beasts of the field and even the birds.

I don't? Hmmm, seems like I've said God possesses his Omni-powers and his word informs all things are predestined, predetermined, according to his will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory.

WaterSong · Feb 2, 2021

Renniks said:
Yes, because of God's law. But making a law does not determine who obeys it. Even the very fact of the word often used word: "obedience" in the Bible contradicts determinism.

Making a law, and the point of that, is to engender obedience to the law. And the law maker then determines the punishment for non-compliance. Further, when a law exists non-compliance, in this case the offense that is labeled sin, is all of and from God the law maker.

WaterSong · Feb 2, 2021

Renniks said:
30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

This was a one man's opinion. Just because it's in scripture doesn't mean that you don't look at the context.

Now, watch this:
35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

This man in the same chapter was a sinner like all of us, and Jesus certainly heard him. In fact this is a perfect illustration of how salvation works. God calls, yes, but man has to respond with belief.

God was false then when he said he doesn't hear the prayers of sinners, and the prayers of the lawless are abomination?
You misapply that scripture above. Understanding scripture is all about context.

Renniks · Feb 2, 2021

WaterSong said:
I don't? Hmmm, seems like I've said God possesses his Omni-powers and his word informs all things are predestined, predetermined, according to his will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory.

But you agreed that we can affect history by our actions. That's not possible under determinism. If all is predetermined, I affect nothing. It reminds me of an album cover title: "Nothing matters and what if it did?" Understand that under determinism we have only the illusion of choice. We are actually just robots programmed to do exactly what we do, good or evil. Which makes God more evil than Satan, because of course, Satan has no real choice either.

Renniks · Feb 2, 2021

WaterSong said:
Making a law, and the point of that, is to engender obedience to the law. And the law maker then determines the punishment for non-compliance. Further, when a law exists non-compliance, in this case the offense that is labeled sin, is all of and from God the law maker.

What? How is the offense from God? God says the opposite:
"What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?”

God must be a terrible liar under your theology.

Renniks · Feb 2, 2021

WaterSong said:
God was false then when he said he doesn't hear the prayers of sinners, and the prayers of the lawless are abomination?
You misapply that scripture above. Understanding scripture is all about context.

It certainly is, and the context of doesn't warrent your interpretation.

If God didn't answer the prayers of sinners, no one could be saved.
No, God isn't obligated to answer someone who isn't a believer. He isn't required to give riches to everyone who asks for money for example. But God convicts all. And certainly answers those who respond.
1 Kings 21, Elijah meets the wicked king Ahab to tell him that disaster is about to come to him and his entire household, cutting off the royal line entirely (21:17-24). Ahab responds by humbly mourning and fasting (which implies prayer), to which the Lord responds by relenting from the impending disaster upon Ahab’s family. Certainly no one would describe Ahab as a godly character, and there is plenty of evidence even in the very next chapter that Ahab is far from a true worshiper of Yahweh. Yet God hears and responds to his prayers.

Jonah 3 tells the story of the wicked Ninevites. Jonah prophesied disaster upon them, yet when they call upon God, He relents and does not destroy them. This could be the case of a people group coming to salvation, but either way the point is the same: God hears the prayers of sinners and answers.

The real problem is, under determinism, prayers are meaningless. They cannot affect God in any way, as he causes the prayer and causes his response, and we do nothing of ourselves.

Berserk · Feb 2, 2021

At creation God brought order out of chaos, but God does not control or micro-mangage the forces of chaos.
"All are victims of time and chance (Eccl. 9:11).
Divine foreknowledge of poor human decisions does not mean divine control of those decisions. Divine foreknowledge precedes predestination (Romans 8:29). The God of the OT often "regrets" or "repents of" His decisions.
The future is not normally fixed for the prophets. Dogmatic pronouncements of judgment can often be reversed through repentance.

WaterSong · Feb 2, 2021

Renniks said:
Obviously you mean something by "sovereign" other than what the word actually means. It doesn't mean all controlling. In fact, God being sovereign means he can choose to control as little or much as he pleases.
The sovereignty of God means that as ruler of the Universe, God is free and has the right to do whatever he wants. He is not bound or limited by the dictates of his created beings. Why people take a leap and think that this means he has to control every thought that passes through your mind is beyond me.

Most people would likely think that. Maybe it is because they cannot grasp the breadth of what it means, what it imparts, when we first accept God created all things of and from himself.
That one would imagine God is not in control of all things is contrary to what God says of himself.

Maybe people can't understand that because they can't put together what that means and due to our human limited intellect. No thing that we are or have is of or from any other source than God.

The human ego perhaps is to blame as well. Our pride.
We think we can have free will, superior in our choice to what God has already defined as predestination. And perhaps we arrogantly imagine we can think outside of the awareness of that which is Omniscient. And Omnipresent.

Sovereignty Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

WaterSong · Feb 2, 2021

Berserk said:
At creation God brought order out of chaos, but God does not control or micro-mangage the forces of chaos.
"All are victims of time and chance (Eccl. 9:11).
Divine foreknowledge of poor human decisions does not mean divine control of those decisions. Divine foreknowledge precedes predestination (Romans 8:29). The God of the OT often "regrets" or "repents of" His decisions.
The future is not normally fixed for the prophets. Dogmatic pronouncements of judgment can often be reversed through repentance.

From whence did chaos spring?

Renniks · Feb 2, 2021

WaterSong said:
Most people would likely think that. Maybe it is because they cannot grasp the breadth of what it means, what it imparts, when we first accept God created all things of and from himself.
That one would imagine God is not in control of all things is contrary to what God says of himself.

Maybe people can't understand that because they can't put together what that means and due to our human limited intellect. No thing that we are or have is of or from any other source than God.

The human ego perhaps is to blame as well. Our pride.
We think we can have free will, superior in our choice to what God has already defined as predestination. And perhaps we arrogantly imagine we can think outside of the awareness of that which is Omniscient. And Omnipresent.

Sovereignty Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Sovereignty [N]

of God, his absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure

Exactly... and he chose by his good pleasure to give his creation some degree of autonomy...of course we have free will, otherwise hell is unjust, and God is just playing a game with himself.

WaterSong · Feb 2, 2021

Renniks said:
It certainly is, and the context of doesn't warrent your interpretation.

If God didn't answer the prayers of sinners, no one could be saved.

The context of that belief is not sustained by scripture.
Remember what Jesus said? I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. And, No one can be saved save the father calls them. Jesus was God. John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Isaiah 43:11
I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.

No, God isn't obligated to answer someone who isn't a believer. He isn't required to give riches to everyone who asks for money for example. But God convicts all. And certainly answers those who respond.

Where is that expressed in scripture?

1 Kings 21,

Elijah meets the wicked king Ahab to tell him that disaster is about to come to him and his entire household, cutting off the royal line entirely (21:17-24). Ahab responds by humbly mourning and fasting (which implies prayer), to which the Lord responds by relenting from the impending disaster upon Ahab’s family. Certainly no one would describe Ahab as a godly character, and there is plenty of evidence even in the very next chapter that Ahab is far from a true worshiper of Yahweh. Yet God hears and responds to his prayers.

In that excerpt you copied from the Bethany church website you overlooked the very first paragraph. Why is that?

The blind man states in John 9:31 – “We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him” (all Scripture ESV). During the sermon, a few things were established with the help of a few other passages of Scripture:.....

Ahab wasn't a lawless one. Ahab wasn't an unbeliever. Ahab had faith in Yahweh. Bible Gateway passage: 1 Kings 18 - New International Version

Jonah 3 tells the story of the wicked Ninevites. Jonah prophesied disaster upon them, yet when they call upon God, He relents and does not destroy them. This could be the case of a people group coming to salvation, but either way the point is the same: God hears the prayers of sinners and answers.

Don't you now how the Ninevites received God's mercy? Jonah preached the words of God to them a number of times by God's command. And in Jonah 3 the Ninevites repented and believed. God sent Jonah to lead them to repentance. God did not hear their prayers as ones condemned and then relented.

The real problem is, under determinism, prayers are meaningless. They cannot affect God in any way, as he causes the prayer and causes his response, and we do nothing of ourselves.

There is a difference between the predeterminism God speaks of himself and his will and scripture, and that of causal determinism.

WaterSong · Feb 2, 2021

Renniks said:
Sovereignty [N]

of God, his absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure

Exactly... and he chose by his good pleasure to give his creation some degree of autonomy...of course we have free will, otherwise hell is unjust, and God is just playing a game with himself.

God is Preeminent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent. How then is the paradox of free will in humans compatible with the Omniscience of God?

Proverbs 16:1
The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
Psalm 37:23
The steps of a man are established by the Lord, when he delights in his way;

"The only fate is what we make for ourselves." True?

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