˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[GEN2REV]

The only FAILURE is your understanding of the God of the Holy Bible, which is very much heretical

Jesus manifests Himself to us in a personal, private, way if we keep the 10 Commandments.
John 14:21

But how does Jesus manifest Himself to us privately, in a way so that the rest of the world does not see?
John 14:22

If we love Jesus, we will keep the 10 Commandments (Jesus' and His Father's Commandments) and the Father will love us; and Jesus and His Father will come to us privately (in Spirit) and make their home inside our hearts.
John 14:23

That's how Holy Scripture says that it works.

 

[TahitiRun]

I am truly sorry to hear of your great loss. May the Lord heal and comfort you....

Thanks for the kindness...
I don't doubt your sincerity. And, if what you believe is what the Spirit of Christ has shown you, than go with it.

For myself, I received a different revelation, but it took years for me to understand it.

Shortly after calling on Jesus for salvation (I was 17 years of age at the time with no prior religious upbringing), I began to read the scriptures for the first time. The first thing the Holy Spirit did was impress upon me the divinity of Christ. That was the very first thing I learned after hearing/believing the Gospel and receiving the Spirit.

After the third day of reading the bible, I went out side (in the Spirit) and looked up at the sky and saw Jesus standing in the heavens, next to His throne. And He stood alone. I hid that vision/revelation in my heart for years not knowing what to make of it. Nor did I tell anyone about it at the time. As time went by, and like most, I was taught the Trinitarian dogma/doctrines without giving them too much thought but always recalled the revelation the Holy Spirit had shown me.

To make a longer story short: When I started to research the Trinity doctrine more fully, the Oneness doctrine became more and more biblical to me, being the best explanation for all that God had shown me and in light of everything I had studied. I left nothing on the table, so to speak. The real draw however was hid in my heart: It was seeing Jesus standing in the heavens, alone. And reading what Jesus said: "The Lord our God is one Lord". (The KJV being the first bible translation I read from).

Jesus is who I saw standing in the heavens that day, and Jesus stands alone (as one Lord). And that's what I'm going with until Jesus Himself tells/shows me otherwise.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Thanks for the kindness...
I don't doubt your sincerity. And, if what you believe is what the Spirit of Christ has shown you, than go with it.

For myself, I received a different revelation, but it took years for me to understand it.

Shortly after calling on Jesus for salvation (I was 17 years of age at the time with no prior religious upbringing), I began to read the scriptures for the first time. The first thing the Holy Spirit did was impress upon me the divinity of Christ. That was the very first thing I learned after hearing/believing the Gospel and receiving the Spirit.

After the third day of reading the bible, I went out side (in the Spirit) and looked up at the sky and saw Jesus standing in the heavens, next to His throne. And He stood alone. I hid that vision/revelation in my heart for years not knowing what to make of it. Nor did I tell anyone about it at the time. As time went by, and like most, I was taught the Trinitarian dogma/doctrines without giving them too much thought but always recalled the revelation the Holy Spirit had shown me.

To make a longer story short: When I started to research the Trinity doctrine more fully, the Oneness doctrine became more and more biblical to me, being the best explanation for all that God had shown me and in light of everything I had studied. I left nothing on the table, so to speak. The real draw however was hid in my heart: It was seeing Jesus standing in the heavens, alone. And reading what Jesus said: "The Lord our God is one Lord". (The KJV being the first bible translation I read from).

Jesus is who I saw standing in the heavens that day, and Jesus stands alone (as one Lord). And that's what I'm going with until Jesus Himself tells/shows me otherwise.

Are you saying, that when Jesus looked up to heaven, and said "Father", as in John 11:41, 17:1, etc, that He was actually talking to Himself?

 

[TahitiRun]

Are you saying, that when Jesus looked up to heaven, and said "Father", as in John 11:41, 17:1, etc, that He was actually talking to Himself?

Within the Corporate structure of the Godhead, the prayer occurs between two separate and distinct Officers (Father and Son), and consequently, Jesus (first person) addresses the Father as "You" (second person). However, both Officers (Father and Son) are the same God/Lord.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Within the Corporate structure of the Godhead, the prayer occurs between two separate and distinct Officers (Father and Son), and consequently, Jesus (first person) addresses the Father as "You" (second person). However, both Officers (Father and Son) are the same God/Lord.

if they are distinct, then they cannot be the same Person

 

[TahitiRun]

if they are distinct, then they cannot be the same Person

You have to understand the single owner Corporation concept. One person with separate and distinct offices/titles.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

This is HERESY

You really ought to be a bit more circumspect with your choice of words lest
the hapless day arrives when you are forced to eat them.

"I tell you that people will have to give account on the day of judgment for
every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be
innocent, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt 12:36-37)
_

 

[Webers_Home]

.
God is a sentient being with a heart and a soul. He's super intelligent,
creative, capable of complex thoughts, fluent in numerous languages,
competent in all the known sciences-- e.g. chemistry, engineering,
mathematics, medicine, physics, astronomy, biology, ranching, farming,
animal husbandry, etc, etc, --has a sense of fair play, knows all there is to
know about good and evil and right and wrong, and exemplifies all the
graces, viz: He's patient, altruistic, charitable, generous, compassionate,
sympathetic, tolerant, courteous, tactful, diplomatic, sociable, affable,
genial, hospitable, and cordial.

Somebody out there skilled with English language and grammar please
explain to me how all those characteristics fail to identify God as a person?

* Jesus once said; "He that's seen me, has seen the Father". Well then, if Jesus
is a person; then his Father is a person too, i.e. like father, like son.
_

 

[TahitiRun]

Somebody out there skilled with English language and grammar please
explain to me how all those characteristics fail to identify God as a person?

The OT tells us that God is not a man or human being (Num 23:19, 1Sa 15:29). And by that definition, God is not a "person". At least not in the sense of how we think of the word "person" or how the Merriam-Webster dictionary describes a "person":

Definition of person
1 : human, individual —sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes

The exceptions that I have with the Trinity doctrine/dogma is really with the vocabulary that is used to define God and/or the Godhead. I don't think God should be likened to a "person", like ourselves. Some other term or word needs to be used.

 

[TahitiRun]

I think the Corporation identity for the Godhead is really better than using the term "persons". Just my preference though.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

The OT tells us that God is not a man or human being (Num 23:19, 1Sa 15:29). And by that definition, God is not a "person". At least not in the sense of how we think of the word "person" or how the Merriam-Webster dictionary describes a "person":

Definition of person
1 : human, individual —sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes

The exceptions that I have with the Trinity doctrine/dogma is really with the vocabulary that is used to define God and/or the Godhead. I don't think God should be likened to a "person", like ourselves. Some other term or word needs to be used.

This is the right defination:

“A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent” (Webster’s English Dictionary, 1913 ed)

We read, for example, when Yahweh actually visited Abraham and Sarah in Genesis chapters 17-19, that Abraham saw three "men" (18:2), the Hebrew "’ă·nā·šîm", is "male person". These "men", One of Whom is Yahweh (verses, 10, 13, 14, etc), Who is recognised by Abraham, who does not address Him as "adon", but, "’ă·ḏō·nāy". That this is not a vision or dream, it is clear that these "men", had their feet washed (verse 4), and ate food (v.8). In verse 16 it says, "Abraham was walking with them to see them off"; and 22, "Abraham remained standing before the Lord", or, as it originally read, "while the Lord remained standing before Abraham". We also read of Yahweh Who Spoke with Moses, "face (pā·nîm, person) to face, as a man speaks to his friend" (Exodus 33:11), which is actually speaking to Moses. Deuteronomy 34:10 reads, " No prophet has arisen again in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face". It is clear that Yahweh did Appear in the Old Testament, as a "Personal Being".

 

[TahitiRun]

This is the right defination:

“A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent” (Webster’s English Dictionary, 1913 ed)

I think that's getting closer, and I considered that one too, though the term "being" is actually with reference to a "human being":

3. A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent; a human being; a man, woman, or child.

We read, for example, when Yahweh actually visited Abraham and Sarah in Genesis chapters 17-19, that Abraham saw three "men" (18:2), the Hebrew "’ă·nā·šîm", is "male person". These "men", One of Whom is Yahweh (verses, 10, 13, 14, etc), Who is recognised by Abraham, who does not address Him as "adon", but, "’ă·ḏō·nāy". That this is not a vision or dream, it is clear that these "men", had their feet washed (verse 4), and ate food (v.8). In verse 16 it says, "Abraham was walking with them to see them off"; and 22, "Abraham remained standing before the Lord", or, as it originally read, "while the Lord remained standing before Abraham". We also read of Yahweh Who Spoke with Moses, "face (pā·nîm, person) to face, as a man speaks to his friend" (Exodus 33:11), which is actually speaking to Moses. Deuteronomy 34:10 reads, " No prophet has arisen again in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face". It is clear that Yahweh did Appear in the Old Testament, as a "Personal Being".

All of these examples can be understood as manifestations of a singular God (or Being, if you like) manifesting Himself either singly or as a plurality of corporate entities (ie: titles and offices rather than individual/distinct "persons") and doing so simultaneously. I don't see why this understanding isn't just as valid as the "three persons" doctrine, especially considering Mar 12:29.

 

[Episkopos]

This is the right defination:

“A living, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent” (Webster’s English Dictionary, 1913 ed)

We read, for example, when Yahweh actually visited Abraham and Sarah in Genesis chapters 17-19, that Abraham saw three "men" (18:2), the Hebrew "’ă·nā·šîm", is "male person". These "men", One of Whom is Yahweh (verses, 10, 13, 14, etc), Who is recognised by Abraham, who does not address Him as "adon", but, "’ă·ḏō·nāy". That this is not a vision or dream, it is clear that these "men", had their feet washed (verse 4), and ate food (v.8). In verse 16 it says, "Abraham was walking with them to see them off"; and 22, "Abraham remained standing before the Lord", or, as it originally read, "while the Lord remained standing before Abraham". We also read of Yahweh Who Spoke with Moses, "face (pā·nîm, person) to face, as a man speaks to his friend" (Exodus 33:11), which is actually speaking to Moses. Deuteronomy 34:10 reads, " No prophet has arisen again in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face". It is clear that Yahweh did Appear in the Old Testament, as a "Personal Being".

That Yahweh was Jesus. He knew Moses face to face.

Now compare that with Yahweh...the Most High Yahweh....

In the same chapter (Exodus 33) we have 2 separate references to Yahweh...both Son And Father (the plural Elohim)

"And the Lord (Yahweh the Son) spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." Ex. 33:11

Compare this to....

"And he (Yahweh the Father, the Most High) said, you cannot see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex. 33:20

Notice the extreme difference between a friend you speak to face to face (Jesus) and the Almighty who no man can look on and live.

Here we see that Yahweh is a family of Father and Son. The Godhead. They are joined in One Spirit.

God is a hierarchy of One Spirit aiming downward to us. Through Christ we go upward to the Most High. As such Jesus is a Mediator between us and the Father.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

That Yahweh was Jesus. He knew Moses face to face.

Now compare that with Yahweh...the Most High Yahweh....

In the same chapter (Exodus 33) we have 2 separate references to Yahweh...both Son And Father (the plural Elohim)

"And the Lord (Yahweh the Son) spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle." Ex. 33:11

Compare this to....

"And he (Yahweh the Father, the Most High) said, you cannot see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex. 33:20

Notice the extreme difference between a friend you speak to face to face (Jesus) and the Almighty who no man can look on and live.

Here we see that Yahweh is a family of Father and Son. The Godhead. They are joined in One Spirit.

God is a hierarchy of One Spirit aiming downward to us. Through Christ we go upward to the Most High. As such Jesus is a Mediator between us and the Father.

Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH. Three DISTINCT Persons, Who are 100% EQUALLY Almighy God.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH. Three DISTINCT Persons, Who are 100% EQUALLY Almighy God.

What makes the Father and Son ...One? And how do we become one with them? How do we have fellowship with both the Father and the Son?
“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” 1 John 1:3

Fellowship is THROUGH the Spirit of God. We don't fellowship WITH the Spirit. We fellowship IN the Spirit. We are to worship IN Spirit and truth. We don't worship Spirit and truth.

 

[Wrangler]

There is also clear evidence in the Old Testament, to show that the plural “˒ĕlōhı̂m”, is used because The One True God of the Old Testament, is not One Person, Who is the Father.

LOL v4 of Genesis 1 uses the singular pronoun, ‘he.’ Are you going to tell us, on top of the Hebrews not understanding their own language and religious text meaning, that ‘he’ is not a singular pronoun?

 

[GEN2REV]

Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH. Three DISTINCT Persons, Who are 100% EQUALLY Almighy God.

This post showcases the impossible claim of the trinity doctrine.

It is not realistic, spiritually OR physically.

They cannot be distinct (different) and all be 100% Almighty God without being 3 gods.

It is impossible. Even experts on this nonsense claim one must "embrace the mystery".

Bullspit! The Bible states repeatedly that God is ONE.

NOTHING about that description you posted aligns with that repeated statement from Scripture that describes our God in the least.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus Christ is YHWH.

You can say that but must know it goes against Scripture; not one time is Jesus identified as YHWH.

Not one time does Scripture state believing Jesus is God is a prerequisite to salvation.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

LOL v4 of Genesis 1 uses the singular pronoun, ‘he.’ Are you going to tell us, on top of the Hebrews not understanding their own language and religious text meaning, that ‘he’ is not a singular pronoun?

IF, as you believe, that the God of the Bible is One Person, then why did not the Holy Spirit, when Inspiring the Writers of the Books of the Old Testament, use either “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah”, which are both singluar, rather than the plural ˒ĕlōhı̂m? When ˒ĕlōhı̂m is used in the OT, for false gods or false idols, or even for judges, it is almost every time used for more than one?

In Genesis 1:1 it says, "in the beginning ˒ĕlōhı̂m Created". Which, people like yourself would understand as Creation by the One Person, God the Father. Yet, in Ecclesiastes 12:1, it reads in the Hebrew, "remeber your bō·wr·’e·ḵā", which is the masculine plural?

I have shown all of this in the OP, which you choose to ignore. The so called "plural of majesty" is a FALSE MYTH, believed by those who cannot accept the FACT, that the Bible teaches that God is more than One Person.

You speak of the singular pornoun, "he"; but ignore the fact that in Genesis 1:26, we have the PLURAL pronouns used?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

This post showcases the impossible claim of the trinity doctrine.

It is not realistic, spiritually OR physically.

They cannot be distinct (different) and all be 100% Almighty God without being 3 gods.

It is impossible. Even experts on this nonsense claim one must "embrace the mystery".

Bullspit! The Bible states repeatedly that God is ONE.

NOTHING about that description you posted aligns with that repeated statement from Scripture that describes our God in the least.

That is exactly why Paul says in 1 Timothy 3:16, "GREAT is the MYSTERY", that "God was manifested in the flesh"

You are looking for human "logic", to understant the unfathomable, and incomprehensible, Great God of the Holy Bible.

The Bible is very clear, that there are THREE, not TWO, or FOUR, distinct Persons, Who are 100% equal YHWH. Yet it also says that there is One God. Now explain this without the teaching of the Trinity.