˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

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ByGraceThroughFaith

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Yes or no, singular pronouns are used for God 1,000’s if times in the Bible?

what does US and OUR in Genesis 1:26 mean? These are PLURAL!

Genesis 11:7, " Come, let US go down there and confused their language"

As is the "Who will go for US" in Isaiah 6:8.

So your argument for the singular is DESTROYED, as the PLURAL is used for GOD!

These are PORNOUNS, but are PLURAL in NUMBER!

What about CREATORS and MAKERS?
 

tigger 2

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Forget it, Wrangler. He's already proved that he is not open to honest discussion or real evidence.

Post #3 above:

Elohim

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
says:
“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:
“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.

Both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 show God calling Moses "a god" (elohim). This alone shows the error of some that the plural elohim must mean a "plural oneness" unless we want to believe Moses was a multiple-person Moses!

And The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1986, tells us:
Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. ‘gods’). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural elohim (e.g. Jdg. 11:24; 1 Ki. 11:5; 2 Ki. 1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the plural of fullness; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God.” - p. 67, Vol. 2.

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:
“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

And the New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:
ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:
“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”

And the prestigious work edited by Hastings says about this:

"It is exegesis of a mischievous if pious sort that would find the doctrine of the Trinity in the plural form elohim [God]" ("God," Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics).

EVIDENCE

To show how ancient Jewish scholars themselves understood this we can look at the work of the seventy Hebrew scholars who translated the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (OT) into Greek several centuries before the time of Christ. The Greek language did not use the “plural of excellence” that the Hebrew did. So, if we see a plural used in the Greek Septuagint, it was really intended to represent more than one individual!

So how is elohim rendered in the Greek Septuagint by those ancient Hebrew scholars? Whenever it clearly refers to Jehovah God, it is always found to be singular in number (just as in New Testament Greek): theos ! Whenever elohim clearly refers to a plural (in number) noun, it is always found to be plural in number in Greek (just as in the New Testament Greek): theoi or theois (“gods”).

For example: “I am the Lord thy God [elohim - plural of excellence in Hebrew becomes theos - singular in the Greek Septuagint]” - Ex. 20:2. And “know that the Lord he is God [as always, the plural elohim, as applied to the God of Israel, becomes the singular, theos in the Septuagint] he made us...” - Ps. 100:3.

But when elohim really does mean plural in number, we see it rendered into the Greek plural for “gods” in the Septuagint: “Thou shalt not worship their gods [elohim in Hebrew becomes theois - plural in the Greek Septuagint], nor serve them .... And thou shalt serve the Lord thy God [singular - Greek].” - Ex. 23:24-25.

We see exactly the same thing happening for translations of the plural elohim in the ancient Septuagint and in the Christian NT.

Yes, all the NT Bible writers, whether quoting from the OT or writing their own God-inspired NT scriptures, always used the singular “God” (theos) in NT Greek when speaking of the only true God of the Bible. (If the plural form had been used for the only true God, we would even discover a new “trinity” at John 10:34.)

It is absolutely incredible that John, Paul, and the other inspired NT writers would not have used the plural Greek form to translate the plural Hebrew form of “God” if they had intended in any degree to imply that God was in any way more than one person!
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Forget it, Wrangler. He's already proved that he is not open to honest discussion or real evidence.

Post #3 above:

Elohim

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
says:
“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:
“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.

Both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 show God calling Moses "a god" (elohim). This alone shows the error of some that the plural elohim must mean a "plural oneness" unless we want to believe Moses was a multiple-person Moses!

And The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1986, tells us:
Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. ‘gods’). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural elohim (e.g. Jdg. 11:24; 1 Ki. 11:5; 2 Ki. 1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the plural of fullness; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God.” - p. 67, Vol. 2.

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:
“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

And the New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:
ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:
“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”

And the prestigious work edited by Hastings says about this:

"It is exegesis of a mischievous if pious sort that would find the doctrine of the Trinity in the plural form elohim [God]" ("God," Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics).

EVIDENCE

To show how ancient Jewish scholars themselves understood this we can look at the work of the seventy Hebrew scholars who translated the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (OT) into Greek several centuries before the time of Christ. The Greek language did not use the “plural of excellence” that the Hebrew did. So, if we see a plural used in the Greek Septuagint, it was really intended to represent more than one individual!

So how is elohim rendered in the Greek Septuagint by those ancient Hebrew scholars? Whenever it clearly refers to Jehovah God, it is always found to be singular in number (just as in New Testament Greek): theos ! Whenever elohim clearly refers to a plural (in number) noun, it is always found to be plural in number in Greek (just as in the New Testament Greek): theoi or theois (“gods”).

For example: “I am the Lord thy God [elohim - plural of excellence in Hebrew becomes theos - singular in the Greek Septuagint]” - Ex. 20:2. And “know that the Lord he is God [as always, the plural elohim, as applied to the God of Israel, becomes the singular, theos in the Septuagint] he made us...” - Ps. 100:3.

But when elohim really does mean plural in number, we see it rendered into the Greek plural for “gods” in the Septuagint: “Thou shalt not worship their gods [elohim in Hebrew becomes theois - plural in the Greek Septuagint], nor serve them .... And thou shalt serve the Lord thy God [singular - Greek].” - Ex. 23:24-25.

We see exactly the same thing happening for translations of the plural elohim in the ancient Septuagint and in the Christian NT.

Yes, all the NT Bible writers, whether quoting from the OT or writing their own God-inspired NT scriptures, always used the singular “God” (theos) in NT Greek when speaking of the only true God of the Bible. (If the plural form had been used for the only true God, we would even discover a new “trinity” at John 10:34.)

It is absolutely incredible that John, Paul, and the other inspired NT writers would not have used the plural Greek form to translate the plural Hebrew form of “God” if they had intended in any degree to imply that God was in any way more than one person!

READ the OP, I have shown that there is no such thing as "plural of majesties"!

There is not need for The NT to use the plural, because the singular is used for each Person

You cannot honestly show from John 1:1, and the oldest and best textual evidence on 1:18, where it is clear that there are TWO Who are GOD. Acts 5:3-4 says that the Holy Spirit is GOD. Now show that this is not the case?
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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OK, like animals, heavenly beings. Not all heavenly beings are God, right?

Here are two for you, if you can answser

WHY, I keep on asking, you, and now will also ask @tigger 2 , does the Old Testament, simply not use “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah”, when used for God, which are both SINGULAR, and used many times for God already? WHY is the PLURAL "˒ĕlōhı̂m", used at all?

WHY do we read only THREE, "Holy, Holy, Holy" used for God, and not "Holy", or Holy, Holy", or, "Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy", etc. Why THREE?
Also, we have at least 2 places in Proverbs where the PLURAL "ONES" is used?

In Proverbs 9:10, we read, “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight”

“the LORD”, “Yehôvâh”, masculine, singular

“the Holy One”, “qə·ḏō·šîm”, masculine, plural, “the Holy Ones

Proverbs 30:3, “I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One”

“the Holy One”, “qə·ḏō·šîm”, masculine, plural, “the Holy Ones

WHY the PLURAL, when we also have the SINGULAR?

You have still ignored WHY the PLURAL CREATORS and MAKERS is used? WHY does it say in Genesis 1:26, "let US make man in OUR Image", etc?

The Jews themselves taught in the time before the Birth of Jesus Christ, in their Targum translations of the OT, than God is more than ONE Person. As I have shown in the OP, The Jerusalem Targum, in Genesis 1:27 reads, "“And the Word (Memra) of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them”. The "Memra" is a PERSON, in the Targums, as He is here The Creator!

These are FACTS that you choose to ignore, because they DESTROY your personal theology!
 

Wrangler

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WHY, I keep on asking, you, and now will also ask @tigger 2 , does the Old Testament, simply not use “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah”, when used for God, which are both SINGULAR, and used many times for God already? WHY is the PLURAL "˒ĕlōhı̂m", used at all?

Why does grasping foreign language usage of this word matter? You keep side stepping that God is referred to 1,000's of times using singular pronouns, which is proof text the Supreme Being is, as he says he is in the Sh'ma, singular (not plural).
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Why does grasping foreign language usage of this word matter? You keep side stepping that God is referred to 1,000's of times using singular pronouns, which is proof text the Supreme Being is, as he says he is in the Sh'ma, singular (not plural).

You are not interested in the TRUTH of the Bible, only your nonsense! You IGNORE the FACT that PLURAL pronouns are also used.

I have ended with you as you are not honest!
 

DavidB

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You quote the NLT, but as per usual, FAIL to show all that it says! Here it is for you

That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I claim to be, e you will die in your sins.”

There is a note linked to "e", which says, "8:24 Greek unless you believe that I am. See Exod 3:14.
Bible Gateway passage: John 8 - New Living Translation

you have actually made my case for me! The cross reference in the NLT shows, that Jesus in John 8:24, is referring to Exodus 3:14, and thereby asserting His Deity!

Now, will you be honest and accept the English Version that you quote, where it is clear that Jesus Christ is The Great I AM?
I suggest you use Biblegateway to look at all the translations of John 8:24. You will find only a few that read “I AM.” The great majority read “I am he” or “I am the one.”
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I suggest you use Biblegateway to look at all the translations of John 8:24. You will find only a few that read “I AM.” The great majority read “I am he” or “I am the one.”

I suggest that you learn the Greek language, because when Jesus says "ἐγώ εἰμι", it can ONLY mean, "I AM", there is no HE, THE ONE, or any other addition. That is it! Any version that says other than I AM is WRONG. Now show that I am wrong
 

DavidB

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I suggest that you learn the Greek language, because when Jesus says "ἐγώ εἰμι", it can ONLY mean, "I AM", there is no HE, THE ONE, or any other addition. That is it! Any version that says other than I AM is WRONG. Now show that I am wrong
As you are a Koine Greek scholar, I would like to know your thoughts on comparing John 8:24 and John 9:9.

John 8:24 NASB
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”

John 9:9 NASB
“Others were saying, “This is he,” still others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” The man himself kept saying, “I am the one.”

When I look at Mounce Interlinear both verses use ego eimi in the same way. Why is it acceptable to add “the one” to John 9:9 and wrong to do so at John 8:24? The great majority of translators do consistently add “the one” or “he” to both verses to complete the sentence. Surely ego eimi at John 9:9 wasn’t meant to show that the blind man was God.

I look forward to your thoughts. I don’t have the time or opportunity to become an expert in Koine and I don’t want to become like those who know just a little and draw errant conclusions.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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As you are a Koine Greek scholar, I would like to know your thoughts on comparing John 8:24 and John 9:9.

John 8:24 NASB
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”

John 9:9 NASB
“Others were saying, “This is he,” still others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” The man himself kept saying, “I am the one.”

When I look at Mounce Interlinear both verses use ego eimi in the same way. Why is it acceptable to add “the one” to John 9:9 and wrong to do so at John 8:24? The great majority of translators do consistently add “the one” or “he” to both verses to complete the sentence. Surely ego eimi at John 9:9 wasn’t meant to show that the blind man was God.

I look forward to your thoughts. I don’t have the time or opportunity to become an expert in Koine and I don’t want to become like those who know just a little and draw errant conclusions.

ἐγώ εἰμι is literally I am. This in itself does not mean that it always means, "God"; as the context it is used in is very important. The same is for θεός, which is not always used for the One True God of the Bible, but also for the devil, angel, and human judges.

The context that Jesus uses ἐγώ εἰμι, in John 8:24, is not simply saying that "I am", but, that He is God, because He says that those who do not believe that ἐγώ εἰμι, they will die in their sins. In verse 58 Jesus again says, ἐγώ εἰμι, and He here compares this with γενέσθαι, which is the entrance of Abraham into this world, and His Eternal Existence. The Jews who were watching every thing that Jesus said, to accuse Him, clearly understood that He is here claiming to be YHWH, which is what we read in Exodus 3:14. That is why we read in verse 59, that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus, for they considered what He said, to be blasphemy.

A couple of examples when Jesus uses ἐγώ εἰμι, in the sense of God, can be seen when He walked on the water, and the Disclipes were afraid. In Matthew 14:27, Jesus tells the Disciples, "Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”. the words, "it is I", is in the Greek, ἐγώ εἰμι, I AM. Likewise in John 18, we read, "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am (ἐγώ εἰμι). And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (ἐγώ εἰμι), they went backward, and fell to the ground" (4-6). Notice that when Jesus tells them, ἐγώ εἰμι, then fall to the ground. Why would this be, if not because He is here saying that He is God?
 

DavidB

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ἐγώ εἰμι is literally I am. This in itself does not mean that it always means, "God"; as the context it is used in is very important. The same is for θεός, which is not always used for the One True God of the Bible, but also for the devil, angel, and human judges.

The context that Jesus uses ἐγώ εἰμι, in John 8:24, is not simply saying that "I am", but, that He is God, because He says that those who do not believe that ἐγώ εἰμι, they will die in their sins. In verse 58 Jesus again says, ἐγώ εἰμι, and He here compares this with γενέσθαι, which is the entrance of Abraham into this world, and His Eternal Existence. The Jews who were watching every thing that Jesus said, to accuse Him, clearly understood that He is here claiming to be YHWH, which is what we read in Exodus 3:14. That is why we read in verse 59, that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus, for they considered what He said, to be blasphemy.

A couple of examples when Jesus uses ἐγώ εἰμι, in the sense of God, can be seen when He walked on the water, and the Disclipes were afraid. In Matthew 14:27, Jesus tells the Disciples, "Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”. the words, "it is I", is in the Greek, ἐγώ εἰμι, I AM. Likewise in John 18, we read, "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am (ἐγώ εἰμι). And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (ἐγώ εἰμι), they went backward, and fell to the ground" (4-6). Notice that when Jesus tells them, ἐγώ εἰμι, then fall to the ground. Why would this be, if not because He is here saying that He is God?

What is your basis for believing that “I am” ever means God? While theos has different levels of use, it still always translates as God or god.

What will happen to those who fail to have faith that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah? Will they not die in their sins?

Ego eimi is accurately translated at Matthew 14:27 as “It is I” not “I AM.” Jesus declares his Godship at John 8:24 but not at Matthew 14:27? That only weakens your argument.

I am is a statement of existence. That it is a statement of eternity is contrived.

What translation are you quoting John 18 from. Even fewer translations use just I Am in those verses. Some read “I am Jesus” a completely natural response to their question.

Why did they fall to the ground? Verse 9 gives the answer. “This took place so that the word which He spoke would be fulfilled: “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”

Side note: God gave Jesus his disciples.
 

tigger 2

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"Why did they fall to the ground?"

Two hundred (at least) Roman soldiers were also there who probably didn't understand Jesus' language. And even if they did understand, they surely wouldn't understand that a mistranslation of a Jewish OT word (ehyeh, Heb. or ho own, Sept.) meant that Jesus was claiming to be God (nor would they even care if he really did claim to be that Jewish God).

And yet, these, 200 (or more) Roman soldiers were tumbled over along with the others. It could not be because they recognized ego eimi as meaning Jesus was really the true God of the universe! These were Roman soldiers!

It must be that Jesus (or the Father in heaven) applied an actual force to knock them down to show that Jesus could escape them if he so wished.
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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What is your basis for believing that “I am” ever means God? While theos has different levels of use, it still always translates as God or god.

What will happen to those who fail to have faith that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah? Will they not die in their sins?

Ego eimi is accurately translated at Matthew 14:27 as “It is I” not “I AM.” Jesus declares his Godship at John 8:24 but not at Matthew 14:27? That only weakens your argument.

I am is a statement of existence. That it is a statement of eternity is contrived.

What translation are you quoting John 18 from. Even fewer translations use just I Am in those verses. Some read “I am Jesus” a completely natural response to their question.

Why did they fall to the ground? Verse 9 gives the answer. “This took place so that the word which He spoke would be fulfilled: “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”

Side note: God gave Jesus his disciples.

Before Abraham Existed I AM

Abraham Rejoiced to See My Day
 
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TahitiRun

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This post showcases the impossible claim of the trinity doctrine.

It is not realistic, spiritually OR physically.

They cannot be distinct (different) and all be 100% Almighty God without being 3 gods....
This was actually Karl Barth's position too. Barth realized that when using the term "persons", it carried with it the idea that each "person" within the Trinity had their own "attribute of self-consciousness". And this idea was not the theological understanding of the early church fathers or how they understood and formulated the doctrine, at least not according to Barth.

Here is a blog that goes into more detail of Barth's position and why he advocated for a change of vocabulary from using the term "persons" to "Modes of Being".

Karl Barth say the Trinity is One God in Three Modes of Being (not Persons) | The PostBarthian

Usually, when we hear the term "modes" we think of Sabellian modalism. But this is really not the way Barth uses the term "modes of Being". I prefer to use the term "manifestation/manifested" (Gk: εφανερωθη), as Paul used the term in 1Ti 3:16, rather than using the term "modes", or even "persons" as we understand the term "persons" today.

Anyway, some food for thought.
 
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Webers_Home

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John 10:34 . . Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law; "I have
said you are gods"

Ps 82:1-6 . . God presides in the great assembly; He gives judgment
among the gods . . . I said; "You are gods"

The Hebew word translated "gods" in that Psalm is 'elohiym (el-o-heem') the
very same Hebrew word for God in Gen 1:1

So then, why can't Gen 1:1 be translated to say: In the beginning, gods
created the heavens and the earth. I mean, after all, 'elohiym is just as
much a plural noun in Genesis as it is in the 82nd Psalm.
_
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I thought the title of this thread offered a non-plural option; namely, or majesty?

The OP is showing that the plural "˒ĕlōhı̂m", does not mean "plural of majesty", as supposed by some. The singular “˒ēl”, and “˒ĕlōah” is used where God's "Majesty" is clearly taught. The plural, when used for false "gods" and "idols", or even human "judges", is almost always when more than one is meant. Like in the First Commandment, "you shall have no other ˒ĕlōhı̂m beside Me". etc. Since it is clear that the Bible says there is only One God, and yet at the same time we have more than One Who is God, any idea of Unitarianism is destroyed.