˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You can say that but must know it goes against Scripture; not one time is Jesus identified as YHWH.

Not one time does Scripture state believing Jesus is God is a prerequisite to salvation.

you are well wrong on both. But will you even listen to what the Bible says?

In Malachi 3:1, we have YHWH as the Speaker

“Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the Way before Me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the Messenger of the Covenant, whom you desire, behold, He comes!” says Yahweh of Armies"

Read very carefully what this says. Yahweh says that He is sending His messenger to prepare the Way before Him. Which means that Yahweh was Himself Coming. In the Gospels we read that Jesus Christ quotes this verse, as in Matthew 11:10, where, instead of the corresponding Greek to the Hebrew, "μου" (Me), Jesus changes the pronoun to "σου" (You). If you know Greek grammar, this means that Jesus here makes Himself the Speaker of Malachi 3:1, "Yahweh of Armies", and speaks of His own Coming as Yahweh, and makes John the Baptist as the one who prepared the Way before Him. This is also in Mark 1:1-3, and Luke 7:27. How could Jesus make this change to the Prophecy in Malachi, which is about Yahweh, and apply it to Himself, if He is not Yahweh? This is very clear evidence that Jesus Christ Himself says that He is YHWH!

On the second point about Jesus being God as necessary for salvation, this is what Jesus Himself says:

"Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

The Jews clearly understood what Jesus means here, by their reaction to stone Him to death, for what the heard Him say in verse 58, "πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι", "before Abraham even existed, I AM", which is without doubt reference to "I AM that I AM" in Exodus 3:14, which is also Spoken by Jersus Christ. To deny that Jesus Christ is The Great I AM. Almighty God, YHWH, which is what He is saying in John 8:24, will cause that person to be lost forever in hell. They cannot enter into Heaven

 

[GEN2REV]

The Bible is very clear, that there are THREE, not TWO, or FOUR, distinct Persons, Who are 100% equal YHWH.

Distinct means different. Show us in the Bible where it states that God is 3 different people.

Now explain this without the teaching of the Trinity.

The teaching of the trinity is a man-made teaching.

Show us in the Bible where it "teaches" the trinity concept.

Don't give me the only verse that speaks of 3 'things', or the only one that speaks of 3 'titles' - show me any passage that teaches the trinity concept.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Distinct means different. Show us in the Bible where it states that God is 3 different people.The teaching of the trinity is a man-made teaching.

Show us in the Bible where it "teaches" the trinity concept.

Don't give me the only verse that speaks of 3 'things', or the only one that speaks of 3 'titles' - show me any passage that teaches the trinity concept.

Isaiah 9:6, Jesus Chtist is "Mighty God". In 10:21, the Father is "Mighty God". Two distinct Persons, Who are equally God.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

Both the Deity of the Father and Jesus Christ is conformed here, as is their distinction, "WITH God"

The same is in John 1:18 in the oldest and best textual evidence

"No one has seen God at any time. The Unique God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, has declared Him"

Two distinct Persons Who are equally God.

In Acts 5:3-4, we see the Holy Spirit is God

"But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the price of the land? While you kept it, didn’t it remain your own? After it was sold, wasn’t it in your power? How is it that you have conceived this thing in your heart? You haven’t lied to men, but to God.”

Argue all you like, but you cannot win aganist the Infallibe Word of Almighty God, which is CLEAR, that there are THREE distinct Persons Who are 100% EQUAL GOD.

 

[Wrangler]

IF, as you believe, that the God of the Bible is One Person, then why did not the Holy Spirit, when Inspiring the Writers of the Books of the Old Testament, use either “˒ēl”, or “˒ĕlōah”, which are both singluar, rather than the plural ˒ĕlōhı̂m? When ˒ĕlōhı̂m is used in the OT, for false gods or false idols, or even for judges, it is almost every time used for more than one?

IMO, you've lost the argument by retreating to a different language.

God is referrred to 1,000's of time using singular pronouns. The fact that you ignore this tells the story - in any language.

 

[Wrangler]

Read very carefully what this says. Yahweh says that He is sending His messenger to prepare the Way before Him. Which means that Yahweh was Himself Coming.

Again, reading into the text what is not there. There are 2 'him's' in the sentence. You are looking to justify violating the 1C over this? Amazing.

One other thing; you are ignoring agency.

On the second point about Jesus being God as necessary for salvation, this is what Jesus Himself says:

"Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

The NLT reads 'That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.”' Jesus claimed to be the Son of God in Mark 14:61-62, not God incarnate. The reason he was executed was he claimed to be the Son of God, not God incarnate. For this admission, he gave his life and for this we should honor the man, who by this sacrificed, saved us all in submission to the will of God.

High Priest: Are You God’s Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of the Blessed One?

Jesus: 62 I am.

I know the obsession with desperate trinitarians trying to find something to rationalize what is not in Scripture is the ridicuolous claim that "I am" is a claim of deity. It is not as Mark 14:61-62 shows.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

IMO, you've lost the argument by retreating to a different language.

God is referrred to 1,000's of time using singular pronouns. The fact that you ignore this tells the story - in any language.

how can you say that I am ignoring anything, when I deal with all of this in the OP? Have you even read the whole OP?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Again, reading into the text what is not there. There are 2 'him's' in the sentence. You are looking to justify violating the 1C over this? Amazing.



The NLT reads 'That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.”' Jesus claimed to be the Son of God in Mark 14:61-62, not God incarnate. The reason he was executed was he claimed to be the Son of God, not God incarnate. For this admission, he gave his life and for this we should honor the man, who by this sacrificed, saved us all in submission to the will of God.

High Priest: Are You God’s Anointed, the Liberating King, the Son of the Blessed One?

Jesus: 62 I am.

I know the obsession with desperate trinitarians trying to find something to rationalize what is not in Scripture is the ridicuolous claim that "I am" is a claim of deity. It is not as Mark 14:61-62 shows.

You quote the NLT, but as per usual, FAIL to show all that it says! Here it is for you

That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I claim to be, e you will die in your sins.”

There is a note linked to "e", which says, "8:24 Greek unless you believe that I am. See Exod 3:14.
Bible Gateway passage: John 8 - New Living Translation

you have actually made my case for me! The cross reference in the NLT shows, that Jesus in John 8:24, is referring to Exodus 3:14, and thereby asserting His Deity!

Now, will you be honest and accept the English Version that you quote, where it is clear that Jesus Christ is The Great I AM?

 

[Wrangler]

how can you say that I am ignoring anything, when I deal with all of this in the OP? Have you even read the whole OP?

Obviously, you are ignoring things, which I succinctly pointed out. In English, if God were not singular/unitarian, singular pronouns would not be used to refer to him 1,000's of times. In response to this observation, rather than address it, you get all offended?

 

[Wrangler]

it is clear that Jesus Christ is The Great I AM?

No. The big reveal in Jesus ministry, his great "I am" is the son of God as Mark 14:61-62 shows. And I already made bold and underlined that NLT portion of John 8:24 that you are leaving out - who he claims to be.

The most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed. So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Obviously, you are ignoring things, which I succinctly pointed out. In English, if God were not singular/unitarian, singular pronouns would not be used to refer to him 1,000's of times. In response to this observation, rather than address it, you get all offended?

I await your HONEST response to #107, then I will know if you are serious, or just playing games!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

No. The big reveal in Jesus ministry, his great "I am" is the son of God as Mark 14:61-62 shows. And I already made bold and underlined that NLT portion of John 8:24 that you are leaving out - who he claims to be.

The most anti-trinitarian book in the whole Bible, John also explicitly tells us at 20:31 that everything he wrote was to prove something other than the idea that Jesus is God; namely, that Jesus is God’s Anointed. So, it is funny to see trinitarians try to twist 1:1 – and indeed, his entire Gospel - to have a purpose other than what John explicitly stated is the purpose of his Gospel!

the link that the English Version that YOU provided as your evidence, destroys your theology, as it says Jesus means that He is "I AM THAT I AM"

 

[Wrangler]

I await your HONEST response to #107, then I will know if you are serious, or just playing games!

I already gave my honest response in post #105. Funny how you ask me about something I JUST explained.

 

[Wrangler]

the link that the English Version that YOU provided as your evidence, destroys your theology, as it says Jesus means that He is "I AM THAT I AM"

Many people say I am. It it not a claim of deity. I already admitted that trinitarians desperate for anything reach for this I am business. There really is nothing more to say. See my thread on Gpd's personal name.

Not sure what back door hope you are pinnig on the word meaning heavenly beings, of wbich God is one, in the Hebrew language but I KNOW you are not serious when you ignore the simple point that God is referred to using singular pronouns 1,000's of times.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Many people say I am. It it not a claim of deity. I already admitted that trinitarians desperate for anything reach for this I am business. There really is nothing more to say. See my thread on Gpd's personal name.

Not sure what back door hope you are pinnig on the word meaning heavenly beings, of wbich God is one, in the Hebrew language but I KNOW you are not serious when you ignore the simple point that God is referred to using singular pronouns 1,000's of times.

there is no point in responding to your dishonest remarks. It is YOU who gave the reading from the NLT version of the Bible for John 8:24, this Version clearly links what Jesus says in this verse, to Exodus 3:14, which is the Name of the Eternal God, Yahweh, I AM WHO I AM. Now that you have been caught out in your own craftiness, you don't like it, so you lie your way out! You foolishly say, "Many people say I am. It it not a claim of deity"; BUT, I repeat myself, that YOUR own AUTHORITY that you quoted at me, the NLT, is very clear, IF you are HONEST, that Jesus Christ is in John 8:24, sayinh that He is YHWH.

This is my last response to you on this, as you are not an honest person!

 

[Wrangler]

It is YOU who gave the reading from the NLT version of the Bible for John 8:24,

Yes, and you are superseding a note with the actual translation of God’s Word.

 

[Episkopos]

This is how Paul saw the Godhead (Catholic interpretation notwithstanding).

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Cor. 8:6

These 2 ...the Father and the Son are joined in One Spirit.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

actual translation of God’s Word

HOW can the actual translation of "ἐγώ εἰμι" be "I am who I claim to be"? The Greek is only TWO words in English, "I AM", "who I claim to be" is not in any Greek manuscript! It is interesting that you choose this Version, and reject the Greek! This shows that you are not honest in what you are doing

 

[Wrangler]

HOW can the actual translation of "ἐγώ εἰμι" be "I am who I claim to be"? The Greek is only TWO words in English, "I AM", "who I claim to be" is not in any Greek manuscript! It is interesting that you choose this Version, and reject the Greek! This shows that you are not honest in what you are doing

Well, putting aside your personal attacks about my honesty, I am not making claims of translation. I speak English.

I am Groot.

You continue to ignore my concise observation that the singular pronoun is used 1,000's of times for God. What does this say about your honesty?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You continue to ignore my concise observation that the singular pronoun is used 1,000's of times for God. What does this say about your honesty?

and just how does this in any way prove that God is SINGULAR, when the very word used most for God, Elohim, is PLURAL! I have asked many times for you to explain, why is not the SINGULAR used for God all the time, when He is supposed to be One Person? Why CREATORS and MAKERS, when there is only One? Why Holy ONES, in the PLURAL, when there is only ONE? Your own argument with the grammar shows that you are well WRONG!

Explain Isaiah 9:6, MIGHTY GOD, and 10:21, MIGHTY GOD, used for TWO distinct Persons?

Explain Zechariah 2:6-11, where we have the Speaker Who says that He is Yahweh, and says that ANOTHER, Who is also Yahweh, is SENDING Him? The One SENT, cannot be the same Person as the One Who is SENDING. TWO Who are YHWH

 

[Wrangler]

and just how does this in any way prove that God is SINGULAR, when the very word used most for God, Elohim, is PLURAL!

I reject the premise of your question. Yes or no, singular pronouns are used for God 1,000’s if times in the Bible?

If a book entitled ‘Animals Of The Forest’ were to detail any contents, it would undoubtedly show one type of animal at a time. This is a bird. This is a fox. This is a toad. Even though the book is about animals (plural) we know it would not detail a 3-is-1 plural animal as you seem to be intimating via foreign language subterfuge.

Elohim means heavenly being, singular, which is a general class of beings, of which angels and God make it up. So, there exposed is the premise of your question.