“I will shew thee my faith by my works.“

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H. Richard

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Again what is the perfect law of Liberty spoken of in James if not grace found in Christ, which goes hand-in-hand with the Liberty spoken of in Galatians 5:13-14 ? For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty(Christ); only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love (Spirit)serve one another. [14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Again you are just trying to cover up the obvious FACTS I presented with other verses that are from another context. You refuse to see the obvious and that is sticking your head in the sand thinking they will go away.

Even in Acts 21:20-21 it is clear that James WAS NOT teaching the Jews that keeping the Jewish laws was not necessary as Paul clearly was. The truth is seen in the fact that those believing Jews only wanted to kill Paul. But you can't see that either.
 

bbyrd009

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HR, the lawya lol. Still belligerently double-minded, huh HR? Doesn't matter how many witnesses speak if you refuse to hear, huh. If the prophets will not be heard by him, what do you guys expect him to hear from you?

Let him continue to deceive himself imo, and pretend that there are Jews and Gentiles in the kingdom if he wants. James is hardly the only source for Scripture that he cannot hear or address btw, fwiw.
 
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bbyrd009

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Like I said, people will completely ignore the clear FACTS brought out in my post and fail to address them
And you didn't warp ViJ's post at all in your reply, right
Lol
if you put yourself in that "our" it sure does!
But actually reading the Scripture will quickly clarify this wadr

so you say, but we are identified with our statements here in a forum, and in fairness it is the statements that are most often being judged. When you say "I believe" rather than "there is a belief that exists, __________," one can only respond to what has been offered after all? And wadr you have made yourself the arbiter here, see, and after saying "I believe _____," and literally inviting the judgement.

Don't you, we, essentially come here to be "judged?" I certainly do. But if your feelings are still easily hurt, or you are still easily offended, maybe dissociating from any beliefs you want to forward or discuss will help?
at least until you have revealed that those beliefs are actually Absolute Truths to you, as you have done, certainly. But after several rounds of the obvious ignoring or deflecting of Scripture that would/might ameliorate your Absolute Truth, your arg here becomes moot, see?
Or how can you use the word "I" so many times and not expect to hear some "you" iow?

you might pick up #192 for an example if you like, my premise there being that you are taking statements meant as a condemnation of a certain common type of "believer" too literally, particularly @ "no one," which is meant for effect, and not meant to be taken so literally. Obv Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul, and prolly even Peter on Sundays at least do not fit the profile, right?

in your lexicon maybe, but wadr "works of the law" and "good works" are clearly delineated in Scripture, except you will not engage in that discussion, or at least haven't in my experience.

My guess is that you have arrived at an AT that cannot be questioned, and wadr when you find something that cannot be questioned this should be telling you something.
But regardless, most everyone else can hear it anyway I guess
peace
just keep going LALALALALA and pushing your "facts" ok, you don't have to be reasonable if you don't wanna bro.
 

quietthinker

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I find the book of James such a MIXTURE...he seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth at the same time . :(
The problem is not with the scripture. The scripture is consistent as it is God's word. If it is not understood or if it is thought it doesn't add up, it is because of a flaw in our own thinking/logic/paradigm. Would you have the courage to consider that?
 
B

brakelite

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I see no contradiction.....

John Baptist....
Matt.3:7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance...

Jesus....Mt 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Paul....1 Cor. 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God....
Phil. 1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.


James...James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 ¶ Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

John....1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

All the above writers agreed...the fruits of righteousness they spoke of were ACTS of righteousness...not a hollow belief...yet they also agreed that the motivation...the power...the capability to perform those acts, came from God through faith. This is what Paul referred to as righteousness by faith.
 

Helen

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I see no contradiction.....

Yay, go you! :D
I still read it and like it, as long as the works he speaks about is putting legs to our faith...and doing only what we hear the Father say. Not 'working to become..' but doing because we are...
 

VictoryinJesus

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The words 'faith' and 'belief' are often used synonymously, but faith is not merely belief. Belief is only a component of faith. The other component of faith is 'works' - faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Belief + Works = Faith

The 'works' is the keeping of Jesus' commandments. Jesus asked, "but why do you call Me Lord, Lord and not do the things which I say." He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." He explained, "Not everyone who calls Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but He who does the will of My Father in heaven." He said, "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."

Therefore, Jesus and James were both in agreement that in order to be a follower of Jesus, we must do the things He commanded us to do; this is the 'works'. And here we see that Paul was also in agreement:

Paul said, "by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH." When we understand what biblical faith is (belief + works), we can see that Paul was basically saying: by grace you have been saved through belief (in Jesus) and works (abiding in His words). Paul went on to say "not by works, lest anyone should boast." And this is true; we are clothed in the righteousness of Jesus, who already fulfilled the 'works' required for righteousness (i.e. the law). He fulfilled the law in our place and we receive grace as a gift. However, Paul went on to say that we are "created in Christ FOR GOOD WORKS". These 'good works' are the works that both Jesus and James spoke about: keeping Jesus' commandments.

So you see, there are no contradictions. The problem is always with our understanding, and in this case our understanding of what biblical faith is.

Ephesians 2:10
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

created in Christ Jesus unto good works...which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. —Thanks. No. No contradiction. Says it clearly doesn’t it?
 

farouk

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Ephesians 2:10
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

created in Christ Jesus unto good works...which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. —Thanks. No. No contradiction. Says it clearly doesn’t it?
Yes, Ephesians 2.9 and 2.10 should - and do - go hand in hand. Works follow faith; they do not gain merit with God.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Yes, Ephesians 2.9 and 2.10 should - and do - go hand in hand. Works follow faith; they do not gain merit with God.

Nothing man does gains merit with God. Otherwise, man has something to glory in.
 

farouk

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The words 'faith' and 'belief' are often used synonymously, but faith is not merely belief. Belief is only a component of faith. The other component of faith is 'works' - faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Belief + Works = Faith

The 'works' is the keeping of Jesus' commandments. Jesus asked, "but why do you call Me Lord, Lord and not do the things which I say." He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." He explained, "Not everyone who calls Me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but He who does the will of My Father in heaven." He said, "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."

Therefore, Jesus and James were both in agreement that in order to be a follower of Jesus, we must do the things He commanded us to do; this is the 'works'. And here we see that Paul was also in agreement:

Paul said, "by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH." When we understand what biblical faith is (belief + works), we can see that Paul was basically saying: by grace you have been saved through belief (in Jesus) and works (abiding in His words). Paul went on to say "not by works, lest anyone should boast." And this is true; we are clothed in the righteousness of Jesus, who already fulfilled the 'works' required for righteousness (i.e. the law). He fulfilled the law in our place and we receive grace as a gift. However, Paul went on to say that we are "created in Christ FOR GOOD WORKS". These 'good works' are the works that both Jesus and James spoke about: keeping Jesus' commandments.

So you see, there are no contradictions. The problem is always with our understanding, and in this case our understanding of what biblical faith is.
Ephesians 2.10 indeed follows on from Ephesians 2.8-9.
 

amadeus

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I find the book of James such a MIXTURE...he seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth at the same time . :(
Helen are you suggesting that some or all of what he wrote was not inspired by God? If we throw out one part and another person throws out another, what will be the end of it? Confusion? God certainly is not a party to that!
If we don't understand it, why not simply put it on the shelf until and if God sees the need to clarify it for us.


"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

"So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:7
 

Episkopos

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When we operate by faith, God empowers us to do the works prepared in advance....eternal kind of works. These works glorify God. They let people know that God is in our midst...that He is with us. Faith gets God moving in us and through us. The result is grace.
 

Helen

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Helen are you suggesting that some or all of what he wrote was not inspired by God? If we throw out one part and another person throws out another, what will be the end of it? Confusion? God certainly is not a party to that!
If we don't understand it, why not simply put it on the shelf until and if God sees the need to clarify it for us.


"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

"So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:7

I believe that he was a mixture. Like Peter , and like Paul were at the beginning. Like we ourselves have been when we first heard a new truth, but we weighed it for some time, even maybe for months , waiting on God i us. n prayer for the full revelation of what we believe He was showing
I think he was 'seeing' grace, but still caught under the law and not quite out from under it yet.

That is my two cents on James. :)
 

amadeus

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I believe that he was a mixture. Like Peter , and like Paul were at the beginning. Like we ourselves have been when we first heard a new truth, but we weighed it for some time, even maybe for months , waiting on God i us. n prayer for the full revelation of what we believe He was showing
I think he was 'seeing' grace, but still caught under the law and not quite out from under it yet.

That is my two cents on James. :)
I hear you. Thanks for the response!
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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James 2:17-18
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

There are multiple threads on works. This thread is not to debate “I will shew thee my faith by my works.” But to show what others may believe are the “works” that show their faith.

Do you have “works” you believe reveal your faith? What are those works? How have your demonstrated faith in the Son of God? How can others see your faith? Is it mere words that you have put your faith in the Son of God?

I think that when the Holy Spirit changes you from the "inside out" you can't help but do "works". Often, I think we are unaware of our works. They are just the Fruit of the Spirit and we are quite grateful to be able to perform them. The first three, love, joy, peace come from His heart to ours--a great blessing. The next three, patience, kindness, goodness--even when our flesh doesn't feel particularly patient, inclined to be kind or generous in giving. The last three, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control come automatically out of the first six. Love is the only "work" that God requires. Love first for Him and then for other believers and then for all humans. The Holy Spirit said it best through the Apostle Paul in some of the most majestic words of Scripture: 1 Corinthians 13--> "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body, but have not love, I gain nothing.

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.

"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways. Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

"And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love."
 

VictoryinJesus

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Often, I think we are unaware of our works.

Agree, maybe more often than we think we are unaware of the fruit.

Matthew 26:10-13 When Jesus understood it , he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. [11] For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. [12] For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial. [13] Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Not sure she even was aware the work. they complained the precious ointment could have been sold to give to the poor. Selling it would have only helped a few poor short-term. His burial prospered and helped so many more...as you and I sit here speaking of that continued help to the poor. Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, ...
 
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Episkopos

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I believe that he was a mixture. Like Peter , and like Paul were at the beginning. Like we ourselves have been when we first heard a new truth, but we weighed it for some time, even maybe for months , waiting on God i us. n prayer for the full revelation of what we believe He was showing
I think he was 'seeing' grace, but still caught under the law and not quite out from under it yet.

That is my two cents on James. :)


When one is lacking in understanding, it isn't good to turn on the teacher as if he is the one who has the problem.

Where is the humility here?

James is being honest and truthful. There are no discrepancies with Paul or Jesus in his epistle. It is a reality check.

The difficulty is actually with Paul and John who make spiritual statements that can be taken wrong by the carnally minded.

But nobody seems to notice that...even though Peter warns us explicitly about this (although not about John).

When Paul says works of the law.....he is saying "Judaism."

When Paul says he is no longer UNDER the law... he is saying that he no longer walks as a regular man in his own strength, but by the power of the Spirit. (under grace)
 

quietthinker

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When one is lacking in understanding, it isn't good to turn on the teacher as if he is the one who has the problem.

Where is the humility here?

James is being honest and truthful. There are no discrepancies with Paul or Jesus in his epistle. It is a reality check.
I think this is correct!
 
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quietthinker

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The love of righteousness is the fruit of the Spirit. Without a love of and for righteousness any religious talk has the prime objective of self.
 
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