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“THIS” gospel of the kingdom

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by guysmith, Nov 27, 2013.

  1. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    Retrobyter

    Heaven is a place just as much as any other 'place' is a place.

    Heaven is not just 'sky'. Heaven is the place where God dwells. A place where we at present are not.

    I didn't say 'sky' doesn't exist. I agree with Matt. 6:1-4.

    The context of the greek word used for 'sky' or 'heaven' will tell you which is being addressed. 'Kingdom of Heaven' depicts not a kingdom of the sky. But a Kingdom from where God dwells. 'Our Father who art in Heaven' does not depict God in the sky. But it depicts 'God who dwells in a place called Heaven'.

    I anticipate going to Heaven. John 14:1-3 " ...In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you....that where I am, there ye may be also." And where did Jesus go and where does He now sit? In Heaven at the right hand of the Father.

    Capitalize what you want, and I will captalize what I want.

    I don't deny what the Church is. The Church is the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ. I deny that the Church and Israel are the same.

    Quantrill
    Well, explain how these verses in Gal.and Heb. are linked and what they add to your argument.

    I do not deny that salvation is by faith. Both to the Jew and Gentile.

    I believe those verses you gave are clear that the Jew is being addressed. If a Jew is being addressed, then I believe it is being addressed to the Jew.

    I didn't say I don't understand what Acts 13 and Heb.9 are saying. I don't uderstand what point you are trying to make with them.

    Quantrill
     
  2. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Quantrill.

    Well, I'm just going to chalk this up to being another person who is not ready, yet, to understand. That's okay, because we all learn things at our own pace.

    I'm GLAD that, if you cannot accept that the Gentile believers (called by you the "Church") are grafted into the Messiah's Isra'el, that you at least make a difference between the "Church" and Isra'el. That at least keeps you from making the Replacement Theology mistake.

    God bless you in your learning.
     
  3. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Quantrill,

    From your replies, it does look as if your doctrine has been gleaned from the teachings of men, rather than the teachings of scripture.

    2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    I am not going to spell out what is already there for you to discover on the surface of the page, so I will offer some questions, one at a time.

    The above quote is from your last post to me on p2 of this thread. You conclude 'The Gentile doesn't become a Jew because he believes', but is that what Paul actually says?

    No! It is not. Paul states:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    That means the equality between Jews and Gentiles within the Church which elsewhere he expresses, is based on this truth. Colossians 2:

    10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

    The part in bold applies to all Christians, not just Jewish Christians. We know Jews are included, because he mentions the law. This is a similar scenario to the letter to the Romans in that the local assembly is an ethnic mixture of Jews and non-Jews.

    I'm mentioning this to show that Paul is consistent. God had sent him to preach to both Jews and Gentiles. Earlier in Romans he has shown how there is no difference between them neither in respect to their need for salvation, nor the Saviour whom God provided according to His righteousness.

    This is critically important when considering Paul's thesis about Abraham in Romans 4 - which is why I brought verse 16 there into this discussion.

    So... here is my question;

    Paul refers in Galatians 3:8, to 'the gospel'. How would you define 'the gospel' which 'God ... preached before' 'unto Abraham'?


    I will watch for your reply, thanks.

    Hi Retrobyter,

    You, too, are following teachings of men if you think I am suggesting that the Church has replaced Israel.
     
  4. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    Yes, that is what Paul is saying. Paul is not saying a Gentile bcomes a Jew when he believes. Paul is saying that the true Jew is the Jew who believes and is circumcised in the heart and spirit.

    Of course both Jew and Gentile make up the Body of Christ. But that is the Body of Christ. Not Israel.

    Again, I do not deny that the Gentiles will be saved. I deny that the Church is Isreal or replaces Israel. I deny that the Church becomes 'citizens' of Israel. You keep bringing up verses that don't add to your point. So, tell me how Rom. 4 and Gal.3:8 support what you are saying.

    After all, you're the one with the 'true' doctrine as mine was gleaned from men. As you say.

    Quantrill
     
  5. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    dragonfly,

    That it looks that way to you doesn't necessarily mean that it is that. Other Christians may see it differently.

    ***

    ALL: The disagreements frequently expressed on this site are often unnecessarily abrasive.

    The fact that another person disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible doesn't necessarily mean that the other person is promoting a doctrine of men. It merely mean that you and the other person have a disagreement about the correct interpretation of the Bible.

    If one says "I disagree with that interpretation" or "I can't reconcile that interpretation to what I read in the Bible", then one disagrees in a way that is tactful.
     
  6. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi David,

    Of course!

    But this is a public discussion between myself and Quantrill, and it is surely okay for me to ask him to look at certain verses more closely so as to think about why it is I may have come to a different conclusion from himself to date. I didn't always 'look' at this topic in the way that I do now, and the only reason I have changed, is a result of grappling with what scripture actually states, whether or not it agreed with currently popular 'doctrine'.

    Btw, I don't see this as a disagreement at all. I am well aware of the many details in scripture which I had never computed, to the extent that I now expect to be corrected from my preconceptions when I read scripture, having no idea what the Lord is going to bring to my attention, next.

    I have already mentioned to Quantrill that I don't have much time. And, I stand by my statement because I know that Quantrill's stated doctrinal position is not in line with historical Christianity; it is a relatively recent interpretation based on one man's reading of scripture which he put into book form.
     
  7. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, dragonfly.

    I'm following the Scriptures just fine, thank you. The trouble is when one is still thinking that the "Church" is the main set of believers and that Jewish believers and non-Jewish believers are subsets within the "Church." That's BACKWARDS! It may be a common belief based on ... what? It's based on ... NOTHING, really; it's just a "feeling" that people get after being so comfortable with a preconceived concept of the "Church."

    First of all, as I said above, the "Church" is NOT an entity in the Scriptures! It is merely a COLLECTIVE NOUN (ADJECTIVE, really)! The word "ekkleesia" in the Greek New Testament, translated as "church," is really no different than the words "flock (of sheep)," "herd (of cattle)," "school (of fish)," or "pride (of lions)!" It's a "CALLED-OUT (group)" of people!

    Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) did not die for the "church!" He died for INDIVIDUALS!!! Since most are okay with thinking of ourselves as "the sheep of His pasture," let's make a simple substitution:

    Ephesians 5:25-27
    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the flock, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious flock, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
    KJV


    That's what the word means! It does NOT mean an entity that takes on a life of its own! Yes, the pronouns are singular, but we all know that a collective noun has many members in the group! So, even though the "flock" is referred to as a single thing, we know that there are potentially hundreds even thousands of members within the flock! The same is true for the "church," and Yeshua` said...

    Matthew 18:19-20
    19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
    20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
    KJV


    So, even a group of only two or three is sufficient to make up such a gathering.

    The "container," so to speak, is not a "church!" It's the OLIVE TREE! It's the collection of natural branches (the Hebrews) and the wild branches (the Gentiles), and the shoresh Daviyd, the rootstock of David, as well. It's the Isra'el over which Yeshua` will reign when He returns!
     
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    There is NO difference between God's Israel and Christ's Church. BOTH inherit together as written in the Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles.
    Just because some Biblically unlearned men (like C.R. Stam, et al) saw different phrases like "gospel of the kingdom of God", "gospel of Jesus Christ", "my gospel" (Paul), "gospel of the uncircumcision", etc., that means they're all different gospels??? That's jibberish by another spirit, and is not from God in His Word.

    That confusion is what happens when Christian brethren hang in the New Testament too much forgetting to study and understand the Old Testament prophecies about the one Gospel. To make sure Christians would not go into that confusion about The Gospel Apostle Paul made specific connections with the Old Testament prophets in his Epistles, and especially with the Faith of Abraham being the 'same' Faith we have believed. Ephesians 2 and Romans 11 are only two specific examples by Apostle Paul, there are many more in The New Testament Books, especially by Paul.

    So if Apostle Paul did NOT separate the gospel wondered at and first given through God's OT prophets from The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then no man today can do that either and claim to actually be following God's Word as written.
    That shows you've totally missed your Old Testament Bible history, for the lost ten tribes of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles long, long ago and God has a lot to say about them involving His Salvation going to the Gentiles.

    In other words, LOT of today's Christian believers that 'think' they are Gentiles really are remnants of the actual 'seed' of Israel which God scattered among the Gentiles long ago. The original Jews of Bible history was only about one part of old Israel, specifically those of Israel that fell under the tribe of Judah and house of David at Jerusalem/Judea after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms (see 1 Kings 11 through 1 Kings 12).

    The prophecy given to Ephraim by his father Jacob was that his seed would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). Ephraim was the head tribe over the ten tribes of Israel that made up the northern kingdom of Israel after the split. God scattered them among the Gentiles first while the Jews of the southern kingdom remained in the holy land until their later captivity to Babylon.

    Once God scattered the ten tribes after a while they became lost, and that included the tribe of Ephraim with them. So WHERE do you think that Gen.48 prophecy about Ephraim's seed becoming "a multitude of nations" was fulfilled?

    This is why no one can rightly separate Christ's Church and Christianity apart from God's Israel per His Plan of Salvation, for Christ's Church represents the other "nation" of Matthew 21 that Jesus said His vineyard would be given to and it would produce the fruits. In Isaiah 5 the "house of Israel" (ten tribes of Israel) represents His "vineyard" per that parable. So how has that been fulfilled like Jesus said it would be in Matthew 21? Certainly not by unbelieving Jews!
     
  9. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    As I have said, the Church comes into the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant. We definitely exercise the same faith as Abraham. But, that does not make the Church the same body as Israel. Abraham was not an Israelite when he believed. Israel didn't come into existance until Ex.19.

    No matter who you are trying to make as 'Israel' or 'Gentiles', God has made the difference in the Bible. Rom 11:25 ' For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. "

    Concerning what you call 'God's Israel per His Plan of Salvation', I am not separating the Church from God's plan concerning Israel. The Church is very much linked to Israel, but that does not make us the same body of believers.

    You give several Bible references but not the verses themselves. If you want to discuss them, do it one at a time and show how they prove your point.

    Quantrill
     
  10. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    If you really understood Bible prophecy about the ten tribes then you wouldn't think that.

    Israel is a salvation name which God gave Jacob to represent His Salvation. Clearly you have yet to understand that also. Look up the definition of that name Israel. Just because you've been taught Israel means only Jews, with a majority of them having rejected our Lord Jesus does not detract from the 'name' Israel within God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ. Or have you forgotten why The Gospel went to Israel first?

    I'm not "making" anyone anything, God already has when He gave His Birthright blessings to the 'seed' of Israel, and The Gospel of Jesus Christ was... received by the remnant of Israel that He preserved, as written by Apostle Paul in that Romans 11 chapter. So just because He elected the literal seed of Israel in His Salvation and some of them have not believed does not detract from His Promises to that seed which DID BELIEVE. That is the subject of Romans 11 by Paul also.

    You're not the first person coming here pushing the double Gospel idea, one for Israel and another for Gentiles. So you're not fooling anyone, certainly not me.

    The only reason some 'men' came up with that false double Gospel idea is so they could push their secret Pre-trib Rapture theory, because Jesus showed in Matt.24 and Mark 13 His saints not being gathered until after the great tribulation He taught there, and those men won't have none of that, for it would mean Christ's Church will go through the great tribulation. By that they TRY to separate the seed of Israel apart from His Church, but it's stupid, because Christ was speaking directly to His Church upon the Mount of Olives there that were with Him, for His Apostles and the prophets make up the original foundation of Christ's Church, Jesus Himself being the Chief Cornerstone (as written by Apostle Paul himself).

    One must give up much of both written Old Testament and New Testament Scriptures to believe the false double Gospel idea of men.
    Yes, you are. A separation is exactly... what you are preaching. And it is falseness from men's traditions. None of the Apostles ever taught that. Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 even revealed how believing Gentiles have come INTO the covenants and promises God gave the seed of Israel, and even presented a label to describe them WITHIN Israel, i.e., the "commonwealth of Israel".

    The problem in understanding you have is the same many of my Christian brethren have, not knowing how the concept of God's Church began in Old Testament history and has continued with believing Israel and the promise of Christ's coming to die on the cross fulfilling that Old Testament promise TO ISRAEL.

    And if you understood Romans 11 instead of just quoting a verse from it, you would have also understood how God has spiritually blinded Israel in part today, i.e., the unbelieving Jews, so The Gospel could go to us Gentiles, and then in final those blinded will have their eyes open to believe, the majority of them not being lost.

    Heb 11:13
    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    (KJV)


    Do you realize what that above Heb.11:13 Scripture means regarding the Old Testament seed of Israel that died in Faith? Just WHAT... did they see afar off? The Gospel of Jesus Christ of course, for The Gospel Message actually BEGINS in the Old Testament Books.


    Heb 11:39-40
    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
    (KJV)


    If the Old Testament saints didn't receive the Promise, then how is it they are included with us... ALREADY??? Because of the election of 'seed' that God made prior to us, and per their Faith on The Promise they saw afar off, i.e., The Promise of Christ Jesus The Saviour.
    No, what you should do instead is go INTO... your Bible and study those passages for yourself, because it's obvious you haven't really even 'read' them much less study them. I dare say you didn't even know some of those things there I mention from them because you haven't studied them.

    When you've done that, then come back to me, in sincereness, and I'll be glad to discuss them with you.
     
  11. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    veteran

    Just because Israel means 'salvation' proves nothing to your point or mine. Abraham was not an Isaelite and it is his faith that was being addressed. We who are the Church do come into that 'faith'. But we do not become Israel or any sort of 'spiritual Israel'.

    There are elect in all categories of Israel, Gentiles, and the angels. That does not make Israel the Church or the Church Israel. They are distinct bodies of believers who are elect.

    Im not pushing anything. Im giving what I believe the Scripture teaches. If you don't agree, fine. Present your case and I will present mine.

    You have confused those who were saved with those who are not saved in comparing Rom.11 to Heb.11. Those in Heb. 11 are those of 'faith'. They believed. They were not blinded. They don't need any veil lifted from their eyes to believe. And that is the veil that Rom 11 is adddressing.

    Im quite sincere.

    Quantrill
     
  12. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Quantrill,

    In further support of the opening comments in my post # 51 on p2 of this thread, here are some verses which show 'the land' being referred to separately from 'the people' who are called 'Israel'.

    2 Kings 17:1 In the twelfth year of Ahaz king of Judah began Hoshea the son of Elah to reign in Samaria over Israel nine years.

    5 Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years.

    6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria...'

    7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the Lord their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, 8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the Lord cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. 9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the Lord their God, and they...'


    Now, this I will give you - that the Lord had arranged for the tribes of Israel to be apportioned the land - but this I will not give you ... that the land was ever called 'Israel' separately from the people. All through these dealings, it is clear that when God is speaking to 'Israel', He is speaking to 'the people', not 'the land'. God's 'inheritance' is His people. The people can only 'inherit the land' 'forever' if they obey Him and cleave to righteousness. This fact is repeated time and again throughout the Old Testament. Israel the people do not have a land inheritance separate, or apart from, their relationship with God. If they are following idolatry or some other man-made religion, they are excluded.... by God Himself.

    19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the Lord their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. 20 And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. 21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the Lord, and made them sin a great sin. 22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; 23 Until the Lord removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land [which was by then being called Samaria] to Assyria unto this day.
     
  13. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    What all did God 'include'... to Abraham in regard to that Promise by Faith? It included the blessing of many seed, blessing of lands, wealth, etc. It's about God's Birthright to Israel, as those things were included given to Abraham first. That's why Apostle Paul talks about those in Christ Jesus inheriting... with Abraham. Just so happens, those included things 'continued'... through Abraham's son Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and in final to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh where God's Birthright still... rests today. Try going back and studying that before trying to make a separation between God's Promise of Salvation to Abraham being different than what Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Joseph's two sons received.

    Apostle Paul made no such distinction between believing Israel and believing Gentiles. But men's traditions try to, which is why they are false.

    It's actually your move to supply proof of what you say. I have presented my case, even giving you Scripture to go check out.

    The OT saints were elect just like these in Apostle Paul's days...

    Rom 11:4-5
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5
    Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    (KJV)


    An elect seed of Israel according to God's election of grace? YES! Paul said it. So Romans 11 is NOT just about some idea that all Israel has a veil over their eyes like you wrongly infer. Paul said even in that time, his day, that branch of the literal seed of Israel according to God's election of grace then existed.

    Rom 11:7
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
    but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    (KJV)


    Clearly not all the seed of Israel was "blinded".

    Only the majority of the branch of Israel known as the "house of Judah" in God's Word were blinded. That's who Apostle Paul was talking about after that 7th verse, his brethren the Jews which was historically the 3 tribed "house of Judah" only. The first 5 verses of that Rom.11 chapter is about the portion of Israel that was NOT... blinded.

    So already there is a huge drift in your traditions from men, because Apostle Paul was specific that only a 'part' of the seed of Israel was blinded...

    Rom 11:25-26
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness
    in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    (KJV)
     
  14. Quantrill

    Quantrill New Member

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    I never said there was a separation of salvation between Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. I said we the church are brought into the faith of Abraham. Abraham believed, and we believe. Abraham did not become part of Israel. And we the Church do not become part of Israel.

    You have the distinictions in the Scripture of Jews and Gentiles. There are elect in both groups. The elect of the Jews and Gentiles today, become part of the Church.

    Paul did make a distinction between believing Gentiles and Israel. Rom. 11:13 " For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office." These are believing Gentiles Paul is addressing.

    I never said the Old Testament Saints were not elect. They were and are. But that doesn't mean they are all Israel. Adam was not part of Israel. Nor Able or Seth, or Noah. They still come into the same salvation but they are not part of either the Church or Israel.

    Well, God said Israel has been blinded. Rom.11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. " The elect at this time are part of the church. They are not part of national Israel. This is what I have been saying.

    All of those Jews today who reject Jesus Christ are the Israel who is blinded. Only the elect believe and they are part of the Church.

    Quantrill

    Ezekiel 11:17

    " Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered and I will give you the land of Israel. "

    Quantrill
     
  15. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, brothers.

    Actually, "Isra'el" means "he is a prince with God." It's a name given to Ya`aqov by the One who wrestled with him all night long!

    Genesis 32:24-28
    24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
    25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
    26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
    27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
    28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
    KJV


    This is a "prince" like we use the word "winner!" If the One didn't throw Ya`aqov's hip out of socket, the battle might have lasted longer. As it was, Ya`aqov was not willing to stop. It was the ONE with whom Ya`aqov wrestled who called an end to the wrestling match (possibly to keep Ya`aqov from hurting himself any farther)! The One said, "Let me go; it's getting light out." Ya`aqov said, "I won't let you go until you kneel to me ('bless me'). (Hebrew: beerakhtaaniy)," i.e., "I won't let you go until you say 'Uncle!'" So, the One asked him, "What's your name?" He answered, "Trickster." The One said, "Your name shall no longer be 'Trickster,' but 'He-is-a-Winner-with-God' because you have been a winner with God and with men, and you've won!"
    OT:1288 baarakh (baw-rakh'); a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):
    KJV - abundantly, altogether, at all, blaspheme, bless, congratulate, curse, greatly, indeed, kneel (down), praise, salute, still, thank.

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    The Hebrew name is "Yisraa'eel," spelled yod-chireq-sin-shva-reish-qamets-alef-tsere-lamed. (The italicized "letters" are actually vowel pointing.) The name breaks down like this:

    Yi- = he-[is]
    SRaa = a-prince
    'eeL = [with]-God

    OT:3478 Yisraa'eel (yis-raw-ale'); from OT:8280 and OT:410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity:
    KJV - Israel.

    OT:8280 saaraah (saw-raw'); a primitive root; to prevail:
    KJV - have power (as a prince).

    OT:410 'eel (ale); shortened from OT:352; strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):
    KJV - God (god), goodly, great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."

    OT:352 'ayil (ah'-yil); from the same as OT:193; properly, strength; hence, anything strong; specifically a chief (politically); also a ram (from his strength); a pilaster (as a strong support); an oak or other strong tree:
    KJV - mighty (man), lintel, oak, post, ram, tree.

    OT:193 'uwl (ool); from an unused root meaning to twist, i.e. (by implication) be strong; the body (as being rolled together); also powerful:
    KJV - mighty, strength.

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    It does NOT mean "Salvation!" Where'd you get THAT idea?!

    Secondly, veteran is correct regarding "the chosen seed" = "the elect." It's odd how some believers today think they are on some kind of "higher plane" than the believers written about in the Tanakh (the OT) were! Have you forgotten all your old Sunday School teachers' lessons about the saints in the Tanakh?! These were men and women who believed God, just as did Avraham, and it was counted to them for righteousness! So said David (Psalm 40), other psalmists (Psalms 44 and 106) and the author of the book of Hebrews (chapter 11)! They believed in a coming Messiah, and they needed a blood sacrifice, just as we do today. The ONLY difference is that we now know they are one in the same and we now know who the Messiah was/is, and they didn't know who He would be!

    Finally, Quantrill, I will ask you these questions: Was the Messiah Yeshua` a son (descendant) of David? Was David a son of Y'hudah (Judah)? Was Y'hudah a literal son of Isra'el? Are you a member of the body of the Messiah? Then, aren't you a member of the Son of David, Y'hudah, and Isra'el? Isra'el was a literal son of Yitschaq (Isaac), and Yitschaq was a literal son of Avraham. By being a son of Isra'el, it makes you no less a son of Avraham! The point is not whose son we are; the point is that we are in the mishpachah! The FAMILY! What was so special about this mishpachah?

    Romans 3:1-2
    3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed THE ORACLES OF GOD.
    KJV


    Ephesians 2:11-22
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
    KJV


    Hebrews 3:1-6
    3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
    2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
    3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
    4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
    5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
    6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
    KJV


    I might also say, which came first, the chicken or the egg? In Matthew 12:4; 21:13; Mark 2:26; 11:17; Luke 6:4; 11:51; 19:46; John 2:16, 17; and Acts 7:47 and 49, the Temple (or the Tabernacle) is called the "house of God," using the same Greek words as in the following verse. Why doesn't it mean the Temple in this passage?

    1 Timothy 3:13
    15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
    KJV


    Consider Stephen's argument:

    Acts 7:33-40
    33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
    34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
    35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
    36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
    37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
    38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received THE LIVELY ORACLES to give unto us:
    39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
    40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
    KJV


    The following is what is meant by the "oracles" of God:

    NT:3051 logion (log'-ee-on); neuter of NT:3052; an utterance (of God):
    KJV - oracle.

    NT:3052 logios (log'-ee-os); from NT:3056; fluent, i.e. an orator:
    KJV - eloquent.

    NT:3056 logos (log'-os); from NT:3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):
    KJV - account, cause, communication, concerning, doctrine, fame, have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, speaker, speech, talk, thing, none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    So, both the words "church" and "house of God" were used for "the children of Isra'el" and "the Temple," respectively. I'm suggesting to you that there is MORE connection between believers in the Tanakh (the OT) and the B'rit Chadashah (the NT) than many modern Christians accept!
     
  16. Questor

    Questor Messianic Gentile

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