“Thus Says the Lord”

[Netchaplain]

Suddenly, just believing in Christ didn't help at all. I had to change make a change within myself -- in my inner man.

Faith in Christ is always the first step in a salvation, and this faith grows and shows itself in obedience.

 

[Netchaplain]

Faith in Christ is always the first step in a salvation, and this faith grows and shows itself in obedience.

I wanted to add that I meant faith in Christ is the only step in receiving salvation. The rest within Soteriology involves works (obedience) which manifests (justifies) this faith.

 

[skypair]

I wanted to add that I meant faith in Christ is the only step in receiving salvation. The rest within Soteriology involves works (obedience) which manifests (justifies) this faith.

OK, so you are of the Calvinist persuasion, right? So, the biblical view is a bit more involved. According, for instance, to Ro 10:13-15 a person hears the gospel preached, believes (what you call "faith"), calls on the name of the Lord, and is saved (and, NT, is regenerated, Titus 3:5). That's really the bare bones of it, NC. And it is true throughout the Bible (cf. Job 42:5-6, Psa 34:18, Isa 55:7-8, Acts 2:36-38, 3:19, etc.). In order to receive justification from God (salvation) rather than man (a false theology lesson), man must repent calling on the name of the Lord asking for salvation (re: "You have not because you ask not; You have not because you ask amiss." Jas 4:2-3).

Now whereas the Bible denies the notion of physical works for salvation, it in no wise denies spiritual works like belief (Ro 4:5) and repentance. Yes, God works in our mind and heart .. but not without our assent. In fact, here is the biblical doctrine of faith in a nutshell: Faith = knowledge + assent/belief + application. It is just like Ro 10:13-15, isn't it. Hear + believe + call = faith. Calling on the name of the Lord in nothing more than obedience to the gospel which, some not having, are still lost (Ro 10:16, 2Thes 1:8, 1Pet 4:17). And no, believing is not obedience to the gospel. We cannot be commanded to believe. That's up to us. But we are commanded to repent calling on the name of the Lord in order to be saved.

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

According, for instance, to Ro 10:13-15 a person hears the gospel preached, believes (what you call "faith"), calls on the name of the Lord, and is saved (and, NT, is regenerated, Titus 3:5). That's really the bare bones of it, NC. And it is true throughout the Bible (cf. Job 42:5-6, Psa 34:18, Isa 55:7-8, Acts 2:36-38, 3:19, etc.).

Agreed, all true!

In order to receive justification from God (salvation) rather than man (a false theology lesson), man must repent calling on the name of the Lord asking for salvation

I think we're in agreement here to, but the way I see it is that repenting (first desire then application learned by the Word) is made unto a soul from God (Rom 2:4) which prepares for salvation, and in salvation (redemption) comes everything else simultaneously, e.g. faith, holiness, righteousness, justification, sanctification and everything else that "pertains" to "godliness" (2 Pe 1:3), all of which in time we learn to walk in as the Spirit teaches (1 Co 2:13).

Neither repentance nor faith is what we are saved "by," but grace alone, and the former merely evinces "the grace of God that brings salvation" (Tit 2:11). Repenting (first desire then application learned by the Word) is made unto a soul from God (Rom 2:4) which prepares for salvation, and in salvation (redemption) comes everything else simultaneously, e.g. faith, holiness, righteousness, justification, sanctification and everything else that "pertains" to "godliness" (2 Pe 1:3).

Now whereas the Bible denies the notion of physical works for salvation, it in no wise denies spiritual works like belief (Ro 4:5) and repentance.

Faith and repentance aren't works of man but of God, who brings man to walk in them, otherwise it would be "of works," not "grace" (Eph 2:8, 9). Also, belief and faith are synonymous.

It's also my conviction that those whom God brings to these blessings have been prepared by Him to understand and receive them. It's probably true with all as I've seen it with me, that I now see how God has kept me mindful of Him from my youth, and all along I suspected something special missing and remained in wait for it (esp. during Christmas), but couldn't put my finger on it until it arrived (age 25).

 

[skypair]

Neither repentance nor faith is what we are saved "by," but grace alone,…

If we don't have faith, we're not saved, right? Well, it's the same with repentance. In fact, faith comes by repentance and then God granting our repentance as turning our lives from sin. Only when we are willing is He willing to save. So from repentance, He takes away our conscientiousness of sin and when we perceive that, we KNOW that God has kept His promise .. which knowledge is the foundation of our faith in Christ. IOW NC, we can believe we are saved when we are not. That is the state that Calvinists find themselves in. They have not received from God the forgiveness of sin on their conscience. That only comes as a result of repentance. My experience was that I received forgiveness in a very "tangible" way — like a weight or burden lifted from me. Then in another perceptible consequence of my repentance giving my life to God in prayer, my spiritual eyes were opened. AND I received the witness of the first fruit of the Spirit — joy unspeakable (1Pet 1:8-9).

"Grace alone?" Yes, I agree .. because grace = God's wisdom so that the gospel = God's wisdom concerning salvation. So it was God's grace/favor on you that you heard the gospel but you made your own decision to believe it. You see, grace is NOT salvation or blessing .. grace is the information you need in order to be saved. Ro 1:16 — "For [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes…" But not only do you need to have the "information," you need to obey it.




and the former [repentance] merely evinces "the grace of God that brings salvation" (Tit 2:11).

Yes, if the gospel is grace and you believe it, they you repent (act of faith) as evidence that you believed the gospel and God forgives and saves. Then, when you repent of individual sins turning from them in obedience to God, you are evidencing knowledge and belief of SANCTIFYING truth/grace.

Repenting (first desire) is made unto a soul from God (Rom 2:4)…

Not really, This whole issue whether to receive salvation or not comes from within you, NC. You got the soul part right, but you, by the processes of your intellect/spirit decide from the evidence of the gospel whether or not 1) you want to be saved and 2) whether or not to obey the gospel by repenting.

Faith and repentance aren't works of man but of God, who brings man to walk in them,…

The only things that are put into your mind without you thinking are instincts, NC. Faith and repentance are not instinctive. So again, do you see that we are saying that faith and repentance are spiritual works (Ro 4:5), works of the spirit and soul.

[qutoe]…otherwise it would be "of works," not "grace"[/quote]
Do you see the physical-spiritual delineation that you just stated? Works of the flesh vs. grace, working of the mind. Yes, in grace, we are working together with God spiritually .. as He commanded, "Come let us reason together…"

Also, belief and faith are synonymous.

I know you think this is the case .. but it isn't. Belief is assent to what you think is true .. faith is trust in what you KNOW is truth. If you think that they are synonymous, then your faith is based only on what you believe. If you believe in Christ but you haven't obeyed the gospel, your faith is in your belief, not in Christ.

It's also my conviction that those whom God brings to these blessings have been prepared by Him to understand and receive them. It's probably true with all as I've seen it with me, that I now see how God has kept me mindful of Him from my youth, and all along I suspected something special missing and remained in wait for it (esp. during Christmas), but couldn't put my finger on it until it arrived (age 25).

Yes, Acts 17:26-27 that God has made it instinctive that all men would seek God (contrary, again, to Calvinist teaching). And it sounds like what you found was really what you had known all your life. What was different?

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

If we don't have faith, we're not saved, right? Well, it's the same with repentance. In fact, faith comes by repentance and then God granting our repentance as turning our lives from sin. Neither repentance nor faith is what we are saved "by," but grace alone,…

True, they all are together!

 

[skypair]

True, they all are together!

So bottom line, all I need to do to be saved is believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, right?

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

So bottom line, all I need to do to be saved is believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, right?

skypair

Right!--that is if you know what to believe concerning Him, which is termed "essential doctrine." These involve Scriptural teachings requied for receiving salvation (redemption):

Believe He's the Son of God - Jhn 20:31; Act 8:37; 1 Jhn 3:23.

Believe in the "forgiveness of sin" only through Him (Act 4:12; 13:38; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14)

Believe in His resurrection - Rom 10:9 (which presumes His incarnation).

Believe He "came in the flesh" - 1 Jhn 4:2, 3; 2 Jhn 1:7.

 

[skypair]

Right!--that is if you know what to believe concerning Him, which is termed "essential doctrine." These involve Scriptural teachings requied for receiving salvation (redemption):

Believe He's the Son of God - Jhn 20:31; Act 8:37; 1 Jhn 3:23.

Believe in the "forgiveness of sin" only through Him (Act 4:12; 13:38; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14)

Believe in His resurrection - Rom 10:9 (which presumes His incarnation).

Believe He "came in the flesh" - 1 Jhn 4:2, 3; 2 Jhn 1:7.

So what about obeying the gospel? In other words, those in 1Cor 15 believed the gospel (15:1-4) but Paul said that they "believed in vain." He said, "I protest your rejoicing … Be not deceived … Awake to righteousness" and then called them "Fools…" (15:31, 33-34, 36) What do you think he was talking about if not that they weren't saved? They had not obeyed the gospel, NC.

If you really believe the gospel, must obey the gospel command (Acts 2:37, believe .. 2:38, "Repent…"). It has been REQUIRED throughout the Bible, but Isa 55:7 is a great pattern. "If that wicked shall turn from his ways and the unrighteous from his thoughts, and return to the LORD, He will be merciful and .. abundantly pardon." You won't get your sins forgiven until YOU lay them all on Jesus Christ.

This is what I have been trying to tell you is the flaw of Calvinism. It never reconciles the sinner to the righteousness of Christ. Instead, it tells God, "I will accept whatever fate you have chosen for me." Well, if you do nothing about your "sin issue," then you know what that fate is, don't you?

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

So what about obeying the gospel? In other words, those in 1Cor 15 believed the gospel (15:1-4) but Paul said that they "believed in vain."

Hi SP - I do not see that "unless you believed in vain" establishes a conclusive determination other than being hyperbolic in saying "unless a faith in Christ is vain, e.g. untrue. The phrasing here gives the positive sense in that faith in Christ is never vain. It's semantic to saying "the only way you can believe in vain is if what you're believing in is untrue," which I fail to perceive to be what is suspected by Paul to this church.

The chapter's issue was not faith in Christ but Paul admonishing them not to pay attention to those who doubted His resuuerction, and eventually those of believers.

Blessings!

If you really believe the gospel, must obey the gospel command (Acts 2:37, believe .. 2:38, "Repent…").

 

[skypair]

Hi SP - I do not see that "unless you believed in vain" establishes a conclusive determination other than being hyperbolic in saying "unless a faith in Christ is vain, e.g. untrue. The phrasing here gives the positive sense in that faith in Christ is never vain. It's semantic to saying "the only way you can believe in vain is if what you're believing in is untrue," which I fail to perceive to be what is suspected by Paul to this church.

The chapter's issue was not faith in Christ but Paul admonishing them not to pay attention to those who doubted His resuuerction, and eventually those of believers.

That certainly is a different reading that my own. Why does he protest their rejoicing? Why does he call them "fools" when he knows that fools aren't saved, Psa 14:1. Or this: Mt 5:22 -- "...whosoever shall say, 'Thou fool' shall be in danger of hell fire."

What I see is that they hadn't died to self by repenting to God in order to be saved. When Paul says, "Fool, that which you sow is not quickened [born again] except it die," he was pointing to Acts 2:38 or even his own preaching to repent -- Acts 17:30, 26:20.

And so, like him, I claim that it is the fool = the one who believes but hasn't "repented unto life," Acts 11:18.

What Calvinism does is what the Pharisees did -- they walk you right up to the "door" to the kingdom of heaven and then keep you from entering .. because they do not enter themselves, either (Mt 23:13).

skypair

 

[justaname]

Hi SP - I do not see that "unless you believed in vain" establishes a conclusive determination other than being hyperbolic in saying "unless a faith in Christ is vain, e.g. untrue. The phrasing here gives the positive sense in that faith in Christ is never vain. It's semantic to saying "the only way you can believe in vain is if what you're believing in is untrue," which I fail to perceive to be what is suspected by Paul to this church.

The chapter's issue was not faith in Christ but Paul admonishing them not to pay attention to those who doubted His resuuerction, and eventually those of believers.

Blessings!

Here I see the direct context dealing with the resurrection of the dead. Some of the Corinthians were stating there is no resurrection. This is a matter of first importance as Paul states. Without belief in the resurrection there is no eternal life, thus their belief would be in vain. cf verse 14

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

 

[skypair]

Here I see the direct context dealing with the resurrection of the dead. Some of the Corinthians were stating there is no resurrection. This is a matter of first importance as Paul states. Without belief in the resurrection there is no eternal life, thus their belief would be in vain. cf verse 14

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

Yes, very good .. and when we repent and are saved, we are "raised up [our souls] and seated in heavenly place in Christ Jesus," right? Jn 17:21-23 says that by being saved, we are one with the Father and the Son who are in heaven on their throne. And in 1Cor 15:36-40 we find this same thing .. that those who are saved die to self and are "given a new body as it pleases God,"

We are in this world but no longer of this world. We are ambassadors from God in heaven beseeching others to "be ye reconciled to God." (2Cor 5:20-6:2) Our perspective is no longer worldly but heavenly. When Paul went to 3rd heaven, he saw, Heb 12:22-24, already the "assembly of the church of the firstborn" gathering in heaven -- their souls, I believe -- because he also saw the "spirits of just men made perfect" .. the OT saints.

Notice, then, that in 1Cor 15:42-49 the same question thing (resurrection) is discussed about the OT saints only they will be taken out of their graves and be brought back into the earthly kingdom of Christ. Upon receiving Christ, their souls will be raised up to heavenly places, too. And then, at the end of 1000 years, they will be raptured out of the earth like we will have been 1000 years earlier.

It is a glorious truth that 1Cor 15 tells us much of what we need to know about our inheritance in Christ. But the main thing is the it belongs only to those who have repented/died and been quickened by the Holy Spirit. It doesn't belong to those who only believe ("faith alone") and "have hope in this life only" and whose belief is in vain.

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

Here I see the direct context dealing with the resurrection of the dead. Some of the Corinthians were stating there is no resurrection. This is a matter of first importance as Paul states. Without belief in the resurrection there is no eternal life, thus their belief would be in vain. cf verse 14

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

Hi JAN - Truly, faith in Christ's resurrection is essential for receiving salvation (Rom 10:9), and Paul new most of those in the Corinthian church were believers in His resurrection, and so was presenting unmistakable evidences to them all to refute any arguments against this truth.

Bible commentators do not see exactly who these were that were attempting to spread this error and are suspecting it was some who may have given too much attention to the influence of some Sadducean teacher.

 

[skypair]

... some who may have given too much attention to the influence of some Sadducean teacher.

Some GENTILES in Corinth actually heard from the Sadducees in Jerusalem? Who knows where the mind will go when it relies on human wisdom? C'mon people .. The entire issue from 15:5-40 is, if Jesus was resurrected from the dead, then we must be resurrected spiritually, too. If not, we are of all people most miserable.

And not only so but if we are not resurrected -- born again, life from the death of our soul to God, Ezek 18:20 -- then we are still "fools."

Do you know when you received new life in Christ? Surely the only evidence wasn't that you simply believed in Christ, was it?

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

The entire issue from 15:5-40 is, if Jesus was resurrected from the dead, then we must be resurrected spiritually, too.

Yes, the issue in 1 Co 15 is the surety of Christ's resurrection but the issue we are discussing concerns Paul opposing false professors who were trying to bring in false teachings concerning it.

 

[mjrhealth]

Calvinism

Whats calvinism go to do with anything I keep hearing these things spoke off, have no idea of what it is, there is truth and there is lie. God doesnt deal in gray areas as men suppose he does. The established norm has a bad reputauion of just what iskypair said

they walk you right up to the "door" to the kingdom of heaven and then keep you from entering

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

It is a problem with teh religious who put on all the appearance of "rightousness", dressing up in fancy garb, carrying flattering title, preaching to teh "itchy ears", but in all rejecting truth, making men slaves to there religion, never giving them enough to folow Christ just enough to make them attend church " a bit like Maccas", no nutrition, just fills you enough than you get hungry and need more, get fat but dont grow.Its Christ that makes christians no church can do that, so if you choose to be like Him than you must be taught by Him, there is no other way. No church, school, book. or DVD can teach you Christ, only He can.
You become like your teacher, why do you think teh best vilionists seek out the best teachers, and when they play they play just like there teacher. Not hard.

 

[heretoeternity]

MJRH...you should learn to become a follower of Jesus, you should put your faith in Him, and God, and NOT your priest/pope/pastor or whatever, they cannot give you salvation, only the false gospel you seem to be trained to follow...read scripture for yourself instead of relying false teachers..do you have a problem with that? Obviously you do.

 

[mjrhealth]

MJRH...you should learn to become a follower of Jesus, you should put your faith in Him, and God, and NOT your priest/pope/pastor or whatever, they cannot give you salvation, only the false gospel you seem to be trained to follow...read scripture for yourself instead of relying false teachers..do you have a problem with that? Obviously you do.

If Jesus and God and teh Holy spirirt are false teachers than we are all doomed. Are you trolling....

And if you are going to respond you shoukld at least read teh post, seems you didnt since it says teh complete opposite of your response.

 

[skypair]

Yes, the issue in 1 Co 15 is the surety of Christ's resurrection but the issue we are discussing concerns Paul opposing false professors who were trying to bring in false teachings concerning it.

OK, I guess another scripture or two need to be in play here. How about 2Cor 6:1-2? "We then as workers together with Him, beseech you also, that you receive not the grace of God [the gospel] in vain. (For He says, 'I have heard thee ina time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored thee; behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.'" This is being said because those Paul was writing to had still not all been reconciled to God. Though God had reconciled them to His Son (5:18), Paul beseeched THEM to be reconciled to GOD (5:20).

But wait Paul .. isn't God reconciling us to Himself all that is needed? Doesn't God do that monergisticly? No .. and no. God's heavenly view is that you are forgiven .. the view from your conscience ought to tell you that you are not until you repent turning to God," Acts 26:20, 17:30. Do you really think that God accepts you without you disavowing your own thoughts and ways, Isa 55:7-8? and accepting His thoughts and ways?

Don't be a fool anymore. Today is the day of salvation .. be ye reconciled to God!

skypair