“Thus Says the Lord”

[skypair]

Whats calvinism got to do with anything?

Everything, apparently. The Protestant tradition is, basically, the Reform/Calvinist tradition that has infused all Christian thought since the Reformation. Issues like total depravity, faith alone in Christ alone … alone, Reform fate vs. biblical free will, conditional vs. unconditional salvation, … even the size of the atonement have been bantered around the most fundamental of church and denominational traditions. And each one of these is like a "baited hook" to "catch" Christians into the wrong "ship" and lose a whole bunch of others with the "broken net." I see Lk 5:4-11 as prefiguring the church that would come. The disciples were out fishing with Jesus in one boat .. the nets got so full that the net broke .. you see, the boats were 1) the church without Christ in it and 2) the boat with Christ in it. The net and the fish were being pulled in opposite directions until the nets broke and most of the fish got away. But in Jn 22, we see one boat and a huge catch of 157 large fish brought into the kingdom of Christ.




I keep hearing these things spoke off, have no idea of what it is, there is truth and there is lie. The established norm has a bad reputation of just what skypair said, Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Exactly! The Reform/Calvinist tradition is to bring people into the church who simply believe in Christ — they "have an name that lives but are dead." (Rev 3:1) That is "establishment orthodoxy" in most churches. They don't care that, if Jesus isn't in their church (boat), they aren't saved. And meanwhile, so many people get fed up or confused by the image of a divided Christ (1Cor 1:13) that they "get away" from both "boats."

never giving them enough to follow Christ just enough to make them attend church.

What they don't teach, mjr, is repentance. The OT taught repentance unto God (Isa 55:7-8), the disciples were sent out preaching "repent for the kingdom of God [Christ] is at hand" (Mt 4:17), from Acts 2:38-26:20 the disciples taught that ALL men must repent in order to be saved, and in 1Cor 15:38 Paul taught that "that which you sow is not quickened except it die [repent]." Any church that does not preach "repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18) is Christian in name only. They believe the gospel but they do not believe in obeying the gospel.

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

OK, I guess another scripture or two need to be in play here. How about 2Cor 6:1-2? "We then as workers together with Him, beseech you also, that you receive not the grace of God [the gospel] in vain.

The phrase "receive" denotes perceived (received) and "in vain" denotes by hearing only, for truly accepting saving grace in never meaningless (vain).

 

[skypair]

The phrase "receive" denotes perceived (received) and "in vain" denotes by hearing only, for truly accepting saving grace in never meaningless (vain).

And grace is with wisdom of God and, specifically here, the gospel of Jesus Christ. So don't receive the gospel in vain. That is, don't receive it and just forget that you are a sinner in need of a Savior through repentance/reconciliation.

You know, some folks just have this idea that they are the chosen ones who are the only ones who believe the right things about God and Christ. But the kingdom of God is ONLY entered into by those who repent reconciling themselves to God in Christ.

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

And grace is with wisdom of God and, specifically here, the gospel of Jesus Christ. So don't receive the gospel in vain. That is, don't receive it and just forget that you are a sinner in need of a Savior through repentance/reconciliation.

You know, some folks just have this idea that they are the chosen ones who are the only ones who believe the right things about God and Christ. But the kingdom of God is ONLY entered into by those who repent reconciling themselves to God in Christ.

skypair

Gill: by "the grace of God," is not meant the grace of God in regeneration, and effectual calling, which can never be received in vain; for the grace of God never fails of producing a thorough work of conversion; nor is it ever lost, but is strictly connected with eternal, glory . . . Now this may be received in vain by ministers and people, when it is but notionally received, or received in word only: when it is abused and perverted to vile purposes, and when men drop, deny it, and fall off from it."

 

[skypair]

Gill: by "the grace of God," is not meant the grace of God in regeneration, and effectual calling, which can never be received in vain; for the grace of God never fails of producing a thorough work of conversion; nor is it ever lost, but is strictly connected with eternal, glory . . . Now this may be received in vain by ministers and people, when it is but notionally received, or received in word only: when it is abused and perverted to vile purposes, and when men drop, deny it, and fall off from it."

So he says "never received in vain ... never fails" and then says "notionally received or received in word only." Aren't you tired of the double-speak? Do you understand the problem?

The problem is that "grace" is the gospel and it CAN be received in vain - notionally received but its promises not actually received .. or, yes, "received in word only." In other words, the word is believed but not applied.

NC, I love ya, man! But don't believe this gobbledygook. Grace isn't regeneration and it isn't effectual calling, a fabricated notion itself. Grace is the gospel freely given by the favor of God to those who don't deserve it -- SINNERS! But sinners can also reject the gospel, right? Grace, the gospel, is NOT "irresistibly given."

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

So he says "never received in vain ... never fails" and then says "notionally received or received in word only." Aren't you tired of the double-speak? Do you understand the problem?

NC, I love ya, man! But don't believe this gobbledygook. Grace isn't regeneration and it isn't effectual calling, a fabricated notion itself.

Unconditionally love ya too SP. Notionally here means having only a vague and incomplete understanding, and "in word only" means claiming genuineness but in actuality untrue, e.g. "A man say" (Jam 2:18) he is saved but the absence of obedience to God confirms he isn't.

I learned that my spiritual growth remained quite nominal until I understood the permanency of faith and salvation! The cause (which I had) interfering with my learning this was having yet realized that it's not God and me, but all God. Any amount of self-dependence hinders understanding total God-dependence.

 

[skypair]

I learned that my spiritual growth remained quite nominal until I understood the permanency of faith and salvation! The cause (which I had) interfering with my learning this was having yet realized that it's not God and me, but all God. Any amount of self-dependence hinders understanding total God-dependence.

I find this pattern: Isa 53:10 -- "..his [Christ] life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring [us] and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand [through us]."

In other words, we do have to cooperate with God/Christ in order for His will to be done. He can put something in our mind through His Spirit .. but we have to obey the Spirit, right?

skypair

 

[Netchaplain]

we do have to cooperate with God/Christ in order for His will to be done. He can put something in our mind through His Spirit .. but we have to obey the Spirit, right?

The way I see it is that once we accept Christ, God ensures we will always desire His will more often than our own (Phil 2:13), and this will continue to increase!

 

[skypair]

The way I see it is that once we accept Christ, God ensures we will always desire His will more often than our own (Phil 2:13), and this will continue to increase!

Right on! I would prefer "receive" Christ to "accept." I see it a Him accepting us.

I'm looking lately at that SBC Faith and Message 2000. I am really concerned that their salvation section IV saves no one. Have you looked at it?

skypair