12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[StanJ]

First Stan, one can never cease to exist so long as his name is written in the Lamb's book of life, and so long as he is in God's memory. However, ONLY God is immortal. We are not immortal...neither body nor spirit. In Eden the serpent called God a liar when he said "ye shall not surely die". When God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit, He didn't mean just physically. When God place the angel to guard the tree of life this was not a symbolic action. This was a safeguard against the security of the universe. There is not, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be an immortal sinner. Sinners die. Period. ONLY the righteous in Christ have eternal life.

At creation God made man from the dust of the ground. There was no life in that dust until God breathed into him the spirit of life. When the spirit departs at death, the body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God. Life ceases. It is only in the union of spirit and body that life came about. There was no life or personality in the spirit before its union with the body, unless you are advocating pre-existence which would then lead to reincarnation and our discussion would take on a whole new paradigm.

Sadly this is NOT what scripture teaches at all. Paul teaches we will be made immortal when Jesus returns, and that our destiny in Jesus is Eternal life. I notice you use NO scripture whatsoever to support you assertions here.
I suggest you study the NT a bit more before making thesense type of fallacious statements.

 

[ATP]

At creation God made man from the dust of the ground. There was no life in that dust until God breathed into him the spirit of life. When the spirit departs at death, the body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God. Life ceases. It is only in the union of spirit and body that life came about. There was no life or personality in the spirit before its union with the body, unless you are advocating pre-existence which would then lead to reincarnation and our discussion would take on a whole new paradigm.

brakelite is correct on this. it wouldn't make sense that believers are walking and talking inside the third heaven as "breath". That's not biblical at all. The soul isn't breath. In Greek the word spirit or breath is Pneuma and in the Hebrew there are two words, Neshamah and Ruach. Neshamah and Ruach both mean breath literally and spirit figuratively. There are slight nuances between these two words but both mean the same basic thing. The word soul is a different word, soul is Psuche in Greek and Nephesh in Hebrew. In John 3:8 pneuma is used both for wind and spirit.

 

[brakelite]

Sadly this is NOT what scripture teaches at all. Paul teaches we will be made immortal when Jesus returns, and that our destiny in Jesus is Eternal life. I notice you use NO scripture whatsoever to support you assertions here.
I suggest you study the NT a bit more before making thesense type of fallacious statements.

Precisely my point Stan, yes, we are made immortal when we are resurrected, at the second coming. Not before. We are not naturally immortal...thus when we die, the whole person dies. Just like previous posters have said, and the scriptures support. There is no consciousness after death.

 

[Butch5]

Sadly this is NOT what scripture teaches at all. Paul teaches we will be made immortal when Jesus returns, and that our destiny in Jesus is Eternal life. I notice you use NO scripture whatsoever to support you assertions here.
I suggest you study the NT a bit more before making thesense type of fallacious statements.

Stan,

If man will be immortal why must He eat from the Tree of Life? I submit that man never was nor ever will be immortal in and of Himself. Rather he will live then the same way he does now, God will give him life.

7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."' (Rev 2:7 NKJ)

 

[StanJ]

Precisely my point Stan, yes, we are made immortal when we are resurrected, at the second coming. Not before. We are not naturally immortal...thus when we die, the whole person dies. Just like previous posters have said, and the scriptures support. There is no consciousness after death.

and I've explained this as well if you have followed this thread. Paradise is where believers wait for Jesus' return. It is a place of spiritual rest. Our spirts do NOT get reabsorbed into God and there is NO indication anywhere that your assertion has ANY merit whatsoever.

Stan,

If man will be immortal why must He eat from the Tree of Life? I submit that man never was nor ever will be immortal in and of Himself. Rather he will live then the same way he does now, God will give him life.

7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."' (Rev 2:7 NKJ)

Very good questions Butch. I'd have to say a couple of things here. First it was the way God created the world originally, with the tree of life in Eden. Ostensibly man was immortal then as well because of the tree of life. Secondly we are also made incorruptible, which was not necessarily the way Adam and Eve were created. One is NOT synonymous with the other. IMO, Rev 22:1-5 shows the restoration of Eden but a better version.

 

[brakelite]

and I've explained this as well if you have followed this thread. Paradise is where believers wait for Jesus' return. It is a place of spiritual rest. Our spirts do NOT get reabsorbed into God and there is NO indication anywhere that your assertion has ANY merit whatsoever.

You keep speaking of spirit as if it is a separate entity with its own life apart from the body, yet if you read Genesis you will see that body+spirit=living soul. The body without the spirit has no life of its own, neither does the spirit without the body have any life of its own....both compliment and need one another to form the human being.
Also, paradise is where the throne of God is and there is NO indication anywhere that your assertion has ANY merit whatsoever.
Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Re 22:1 ¶ And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Comparing scripture with scripture one can see that the tree of life and the throne of God are in the one place...in the city...and according to Rev.2:7 that is paradise. Now unless you can provide scriptural evidence for a waiting room.....

 

[Butch5]

and I've explained this as well if you have followed this thread. Paradise is where believers wait for Jesus' return. It is a place of spiritual rest. Our spirts do NOT get reabsorbed into God and there is NO indication anywhere that your assertion has ANY merit whatsoever.

Very good questions Butch. I'd have to say a couple of things here. First it was the way God created the world originally, with the tree of life in Eden. Ostensibly man was immortal then as well because of the tree of life. Secondly we are also made incorruptible, which was not necessarily the way Adam and Eve were created. One is NOT synonymous with the other. IMO, Rev 22:1-5 shows the restoration of Eden but a better version.

I would submit that he wasn't immortal, thus the need to eat from the tree of life. It would seem to me that there would be no need for the tree if man was immortal. However we find in Paul's writings that the Father alone has immortality.

14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. (1Ti 6:14-16 NKJ)

 

[StanJ]

You keep speaking of spirit as if it is a separate entity with its own life apart from the body, yet if you read Genesis you will see that body+spirit=living soul. The body without the spirit has no life of its own, neither does the spirit without the body have any life of its own....both compliment and need one another to form the human being.
Also, paradise is where the throne of God is and there is NO indication anywhere that your assertion has ANY merit whatsoever.
Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Re 22:1 ¶ And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Comparing scripture with scripture one can see that the tree of life and the throne of God are in the one place...in the city...and according to Rev.2:7 that is paradise. Now unless you can provide scriptural evidence for a waiting room.....

That's because it IS. Adam was MADE in God's image and Eve was made FROM Adam. We are procreated from the original image. God doesn't breathe life into each of us, we are designed and BORN that way.

No Paradise is NOT where the throne of God is and where Jesus went in John 3:13, where Lazarus went in Luke 16:22, AND where the thief went in Luke 23:43.
What is referred to in Rev 2:7 is the NEW Jerusalem in the NEW earth. Not a place that already exists.

I must say you continue to amaze me with your bizarre concepts and how you eisegete them from scripture.

I would submit that he wasn't immortal, thus the need to eat from the tree of life. It would seem to me that there would be no need for the tree if man was immortal. However we find in Paul's writings that the Father alone has immortality.

14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. (1Ti 6:14-16 NKJ)

I guess it depends on how you view immortality. In the Hollywood fashion or in the scriptural fashion. What Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:16 was true in that until Jesus returns,
no one is immortal, but in Rom 2:7 and 1 Cor 15:53-54, Paul says we WILL be made immortal. If that involves the Tree of Life, no problem.

 

[KingJ]

God can do anything / destroy anything. Nobody can boldly say they are immortal.

Scruipture is clear that we are made body, mind and spirit. A creation just beneath the angels. Does a human just above monkeys sound like a creation just beneath the angels?...

 

[OzSpen]

First Stan, one can never cease to exist so long as his name is written in the Lamb's book of life, and so long as he is in God's memory. However, ONLY God is immortal. We are not immortal...neither body nor spirit.

brakelite,

How, then, do you interpret these verses?

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” (I Cor 15:53-55 ESV)

Oz

 

[ATP]

brakelite,

How, then, do you interpret these verses?

Oz

Notice that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 2 Cor 5:1-10 both speak of the first resurrection, immortality and being swallowed up.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:1-10 NIV For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

- ATP

 

[StanJ]

God can do anything / destroy anything. Nobody can boldly say they are immortal.

Scruipture is clear that we are made body, mind and spirit. A creation just beneath the angels. Does a human just above monkeys sound like a creation just beneath the angels?...

We are tripartite and made in God's image just as God is tripartite. Also read Heb 4:12, and see how we can divided by body, soul and spirit.

 

[OzSpen]

Notice that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 2 Cor 5:1-10 both speak of the first resurrection, immortality and being swallowed up.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:1-10 NIV For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

- ATP

You haven't interpreted 1 Cor 15:53-55 (ESV), you have simply quoted two sets of verses. That's not engaging in the task of interpretation.

 

[ATP]

You haven't interpreted 1 Cor 15:53-55 (ESV), you have simply quoted two sets of verses. That's not engaging in the task of interpretation.

It's actually quite the opposite. To interpret it correctly, you would need to expand on it. You only quoted three verses.

 

[JimParker]

Hell is eternal, conscious torment.

All of mankind will beraised from the dead immortal and imperishable.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory."
(1Co 15:51-54)

An immortal person cannot be "annihilated."

"Incorruption" means that the body will not suffer any kind of damage or decay.

When Jesus taught about the judgment, (Mat 25:46) He said that the wicked “... will go away into everlasting ( Gr: aiōnios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (Gr: aiōnios) life.”

It is completely absurd to interpret the word "aiōnios" to refer to an eternal existence in one part of a sentence and to refer to an instantaneous termination of existence (annihilation) in another part of the same sentence. That is like defining a cow as both a ruminant, mammal and a omnivorous, reptile in the same sentence. The annihilation teaching of E. G. White is not a Christian teaching.

We have a choice of two options (see Rom 2:6-11): eternal life or eternal death. Both include eternal, conscious existence; one in intimate union with God and the other in irreparable separation from God. One is characterized by eternal joy, the other by eternal dispair.

 

[Butch5]

That's because it IS. Adam was MADE in God's image and Eve was made FROM Adam. We are procreated from the original image. God doesn't breathe life into each of us, we are designed and BORN that way.

No Paradise is NOT where the throne of God is and where Jesus went in John 3:13, where Lazarus went in Luke 16:22, AND where the thief went in Luke 23:43.
What is referred to in Rev 2:7 is the NEW Jerusalem in the NEW earth. Not a place that already exists.

I must say you continue to amaze me with your bizarre concepts and how you eisegete them from scripture.

I guess it depends on how you view immortality. In the Hollywood fashion or in the scriptural fashion. What Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:16 was true in that until Jesus returns,
no one is immortal, but in Rom 2:7 and 1 Cor 15:53-54, Paul says we WILL be made immortal. If that involves the Tree of Life, no problem.

I think the question is whether man will be immortal in and of himself or if it is because God will continue to give him life. I submit it is the second, thus the need for the tree of life.

 

[ATP]

Hell is eternal, conscious torment.

All of mankind will beraised from the dead immortal and imperishable.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory."
(1Co 15:51-54)

An immortal person cannot be "annihilated."

Hi Jim. That was a good post. However, 1 Cor 15:51-54 is only referring to believers. Nonbelievers are raised later at the Great White Throne, only to be thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:4-6 NIV I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

- ATP

 

[Butch5]

Hell is eternal, conscious torment.

All of mankind will beraised from the dead immortal and imperishable.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory."
(1Co 15:51-54)

An immortal person cannot be "annihilated."

"Incorruption" means that the body will not suffer any kind of damage or decay.

When Jesus taught about the judgment, (Mat 25:46) He said that the wicked “... will go away into everlasting ( Gr: aiōnios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (Gr: aiōnios) life.”

It is completely absurd to interpret the word "aiōnios" to refer to an eternal existence in one part of a sentence and to refer to an instantaneous termination of existence (annihilation) in another part of the same sentence. That is like defining a cow as both a ruminant, mammal and a omnivorous, reptile in the same sentence. The annihilation teaching of E. G. White is not a Christian teaching.

We have a choice of two options (see Rom 2:6-11): eternal life or eternal death. Both include eternal, conscious existence; one in intimate union with God and the other in irreparable separation from God. One is characterized by eternal joy, the other by eternal dispair.

Hi Jim,

How is one conscious when dead? Aren't the dead unconscious. Regarding the Greek word "aionios" I agree that it is absurd to use the word for an eternal existence in one part of the sentence and an instantaneous termination of existence in another. However, this argument assumes that the word "aionios" means eternal, I would submit that it doesn't. Both "olam" and "aionoin" are used of things that came to an end. Something that ends is not eternal. If you would like I can post passages of Scripture showing this. If "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, which it doens't, then Jesus teaching in Mathew 25 is not speaking of eternal punishment.

I'm quite aware that most Bible dictionaries will give eternal as the definition of "aionios," however, that doesn't make it so. Remember, Bible dictionaries are written by the same people who write commentaries and we know we can find commentaries to agree with just about any doctrine we want to believe.

 

[ATP]

Hi Jim,

How is one conscious when dead? Aren't the dead unconscious. Regarding the Greek word "aionios" I agree that it is absurd to use the word for an eternal existence in one part of the sentence and an instantaneous termination of existence in another. However, this argument assumes that the word "aionios" means eternal, I would submit that it doesn't. Both "olam" and "aionoin" are used of things that came to an end. Something that ends is not eternal. If you would like I can post passages of Scripture showing this. If "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, which it doens't, then Jesus teaching in Mathew 25 is not speaking of eternal punishment.

I'm quite aware that most Bible dictionaries will give eternal as the definition of "aionios," however, that doesn't make it so. Remember, Bible dictionaries are written by the same people who write commentaries and we know we can find commentaries to agree with just about any doctrine we want to believe.

What are your thoughts on the term "day and night" in Rev 20:10.

 

[Butch5]

What are your thoughts on the term "day and night" in Rev 20:10.

Hi ATP,

As I understand them they are literally a day and night.