12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[ATP]

Hi ATP,

As I understand them they are literally a day and night.

Well, I would submit also that aionios has different meanings depending on what is talked about.

 

[brakelite]

brakelite,

How, then, do you interpret these verses?

Oz

Eternal life, that is immortality, is given to the redeemed, those who are in Christ, as a gift. It is not given to the lost. Without the gift of eternal life, one cannot live eternally, they (unsaved sinners)are therefore mortal beings who shall surely die.

That's because it IS. Adam was MADE in God's image and Eve was made FROM Adam. We are procreated from the original image. God doesn't breathe life into each of us, we are designed and BORN that way.

No Paradise is NOT where the throne of God is and where Jesus went in John 3:13, where Lazarus went in Luke 16:22, AND where the thief went in Luke 23:43.
What is referred to in Rev 2:7 is the NEW Jerusalem in the NEW earth. Not a place that already exists.

I must say you continue to amaze me with your bizarre concepts and how you eisegete them from scripture.

Stan,...1... do you have any scriptural evidence that heaven is not the same as 'paradise'? ...2...the New Jerusalem is a present existing city in paradise (heaven) where God now reigns on His throne, from which flows the river of life, and beside which grows the tree of life. This city Stan will one day descend out of heaven onto the new earth. What John saw in Revelation were two distinct scenes. The present city in heaven, and that same city arriving on the new earth. Even now, Jesus is preparing a place for us in that city. See John 14:2. It is described by Jesus as His Father's house.

We are tripartite and made in God's image just as God is tripartite. Also read Heb 4:12, and see how we can divided by body, soul and spirit.

Stan, hi again. Read again Genesis and how we were made. Our Creator formed us from dust...the 'body'....breathed into that inanimate lump of mud the breath of life.....the spirit....and man became a living soul. Man does not have a soul that is a separate life-form apart from the body, man is a soul.

 

[Butch5]

Well, I would submit also that aionios has different meanings depending on what is talked about.

How can that be?

 

[ATP]

How can that be?

What are your thoughts on Rev 4:8.

Rev 4:8 NIV Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."

Rev 20:10 NIV And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Butch5]

What are your thoughts on Rev 4:8.

Rev 4:8 NIV Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."

Rev 20:10 NIV And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

They're the same the words in both verses, I believe they mean day and night, literally. What is it that you're getting at?

 

[ATP]

They're the same the words in both verses, I believe they mean day and night, literally. What is it that you're getting at?

Rev 4:8-11 and Rev 7:15 take place on the New Earth. There is no night on the new earth. We do see John using "day and night" to describe both the New Earth and hell as eternal. God and the Lamb will be the temple thereof, Revelation 21:23; nor will there be any night there, Revelation 22:5.

Rev 4:8 NIV Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."

Rev 4:9-11 NIV Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: 11“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

Rev 7:15 NIV Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

Rev 20:10 NIV And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

- ATP

 

[OzSpen]

It's actually quite the opposite. To interpret it correctly, you would need to expand on it. You only quoted three verses.

And you did not provide an interpretation of those verses.

 

[ATP]

And you did not provide an interpretation of those verses.

Well, what is the question you're asking. Maybe I can help.

 

[Butch5]

Rev 4:8-11 and Rev 7:15 take place on the New Earth. There is no night on the new earth. We do see John using "day and night" to describe both the New Earth and hell as eternal. God and the Lamb will be the temple thereof, Revelation 21:23; nor will there be any night there, Revelation 22:5.

Rev 4:8 NIV Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."

Rev 4:9-11 NIV Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: 11“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

Rev 7:15 NIV Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

Rev 20:10 NIV And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

- ATP

It seems Rev 21:23 and 22:5 are speaking of the Holy city. The city has no need of the sun or moon because it is illuminated by the Glory of God. I don't see any reason why the sun and moon wouldn't be seen in the rest of the world. With God's glory in the city it would be continuously illuminated so there would be no night.

Forever and ever is better translated , ages of ages.

 

[ATP]

It seems Rev 21:23 and 22:5 are speaking of the Holy city. The city has no need of the sun or moon because it is illuminated by the Glory of God. I don't see any reason why the sun and moon wouldn't be seen in the rest of the world. With God's glory in the city it would be continuously illuminated so there would be no night.

Forever and ever is better translated , ages of ages.

But why would John use "day and night" to describe heaven and hell if one is eternal and the other is not.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Jim,

How is one conscious when dead? Aren't the dead unconscious. Regarding the Greek word "aionios" I agree that it is absurd to use the word for an eternal existence in one part of the sentence and an instantaneous termination of existence in another. However, this argument assumes that the word "aionios" means eternal, I would submit that it doesn't. Both "olam" and "aionoin" are used of things that came to an end. Something that ends is not eternal. If you would like I can post passages of Scripture showing this. If "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, which it doens't, then Jesus teaching in Mathew 25 is not speaking of eternal punishment.

I'm quite aware that most Bible dictionaries will give eternal as the definition of "aionios," however, that doesn't make it so. Remember, Bible dictionaries are written by the same people who write commentaries and we know we can find commentaries to agree with just about any doctrine we want to believe.

Butch5,

The dead are not unconscious. We know that from the parable given in Luke 16:19-31 (ESV) where the 'the rich man [the unbeliever] also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side' (vv 22-23). He was alive and not so well - in torment.

We also need to consider:

• Heb. 9:27(ESV), 'And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment'.

• 2 Pet. 2:9 (ESV), Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment'.

The unrighteous go to the place of punishment at death and are experiencing torment now and that will be confirmed and continue at the Day of Judgment. This is straight from the Scripture.

As for the meaning of aiōvios, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning as 'eternal':
(1) Without beginning - long ages ago (Rm 16:25), before time began (2 Tim 1:9; Tit 1:2);

(2) Without beginning or end; of God (Gen 21:22; Isa 26:4; 20:28: Rm 16:26); of the Holy Spirit in Christ (Heb 9:14);

(3) Without end (Lk 16:9; 2 Cor 5:1; Heb 13;20; 1 Tim 6:16; Mt 25:46, etc, etc) (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:28).

Therefore, you'll have a great deal of difficulty in convincing me that, based on the etymology and usage of aiōvios, it does not mean 'eternal' for believer and unbeliever after death.

Works consulted
[SIZE=11pt]Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature.[1]#_ftn1[/SIZE] Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).


[SIZE=10pt][1][/SIZE] This is ‘a translation and adaptation of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Wörtbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur’, 4th rev and aug ed, 1952 (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:iii).

 

[Butch5]

But why would John use "day and night" to describe heaven and hell if one is eternal and the other is not.

I don't see what "day and night" has to do with whether something is eternal or not. "Day and night" just seems to me to indicate a continuous event. It seems to be an event that continues until it ends. If something was eternal then it would be continuous without end, if it wasn't then it would be continuous until it ended.

 

[OzSpen]

What are your thoughts on the term "day and night" in Rev 20:10.

ATP,

I find it difficult to accept these as meaning literal physical day and night. Here's my reasoning, in the words of commentator, George Eldon Ladd:

[SIZE=8.5pt]Revelation 20:10: 'They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. It is impossible to visualize the actual terms of this verse. The devil and his angels are spirits, not physical beings; fire belongs to the material physical order. How a lake of literal fire can bring everlasting torture to nonphysical beings is impossible to imagine. It is obvious that this is picturesque language describing a real fact in the spiritual world: the final and everlasting destruction of the forces of evil which have plagued men since the garden of Eden' (Ladd 1972:270-271)[/SIZE]

Oz

Works consulted
Ladd, G E 1972. A Commentary on the Revelation of John. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Well, what is the question you're asking. Maybe I can help.

In the thread, we've been discussing whether human beings are immortal. I asked how 1 Cor 15:50-53 applies to this topic and what was the interpretation of these verses. I was simply proposing these verses for discussion to hopefully open up consideration for the 'immortality' (if so or not) of human beings.

Precisely my point Stan, yes, we are made immortal when we are resurrected, at the second coming. Not before. We are not naturally immortal...thus when we die, the whole person dies. Just like previous posters have said, and the scriptures support. There is no consciousness after death.

brakelite,

We know that there is consciousness after death as Jesus taught us in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31 ESV). The rich man was in Hades in torment (vv23-24) and Lazarus was at 'Abraham's side' being comforted (v 25). BUT there was a a great chasm between them (v 26).

How do you explain this if there is no consciousness after death?

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Precisely my point Stan, yes, we are made immortal when we are resurrected, at the second coming. Not before. We are not naturally immortal...thus when we die, the whole person dies. Just like previous posters have said, and the scriptures support. There is no consciousness after death.

That is not so and scriptures have been given to show an after physical death consciousness, which you have ignored or refuse to address.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5,

The dead are not unconscious. We know that from the parable given in Luke 16:19-31 (ESV) where the 'the rich man [the unbeliever] also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side' (vv 22-23). He was alive and not so well - in torment.

We also need to consider:

• Heb. 9:27(ESV), 'And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment'.

• 2 Pet. 2:9 (ESV), Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment'.

The unrighteous go to the place of punishment at death and are experiencing torment now and that will be confirmed and continue at the Day of Judgment. This is straight from the Scripture.

As for the meaning of aiōvios, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning as 'eternal':
(1) Without beginning - long ages ago (Rm 16:25), before time began (2 Tim 1:9; Tit 1:2);

(2) Without beginning or end; of God (Gen 21:22; Isa 26:4; 20:28: Rm 16:26); of the Holy Spirit in Christ (Heb 9:14);

(3) Without end (Lk 16:9; 2 Cor 5:1; Heb 13;20; 1 Tim 6:16; Mt 25:46, etc, etc) (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:28).

Therefore, you'll have a great deal of difficulty in convincing me that, based on the etymology and usage of aiōvios, it does not mean 'eternal' for believer and unbeliever after death.

Works consulted
[SIZE=11pt]Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature.[1]#_ftn1#_ftn1[/SIZE] Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).


[SIZE=10pt][1][/SIZE] This is ‘a translation and adaptation of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Wörtbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur’, 4th rev and aug ed, 1952 (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:iii).

Hi OzSpen,

I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about the afterlife at all, but rather about the demise of the priesthood. You suggested that the rich man was was an unbeliever, yet the Scriptures don't say that. Actually, the Scriptures don't say that either man was a believer or an unbeliever. There are a lot of reasons not to understand this parable as pertaining to life after death.

Regarding 2 Peter 2:9 an accurate translation reads this way,

YLT 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep, (2Pe 2:9 YLT)

I would submit that the judgment is at judgment day and not when one dies. In order to make a case for punishment before Judgement day one would have to make a case that man is somehow alive between his death and resurrection.

Regarding "aionios", as I said, many dictionaries will give eternal as a definition. However, I believe the Scripture are authoritative, not the writings of men. The Scriptures use the words, "owlam" and "aionios" of things that end.

KJV Leviticus 7:34 For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel. (Lev 7:34 KJV)

KJV Numbers 10:8 And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations. (Num 10:8 KJV)

In both of these passage the word translated "for ever" is translated from the word "owlam" in the Masoretic text. The Greek text has "aionoin." Both of these passage say that these are ordinances "forever", however, both Jesus and Paul tell us that both the Law and the Aaronic Priesthood ended. If the Aaronic priesthood ended, then it couldn't be an ordinance for ever. Likewise the statute in the Law ended and thus cannot be "for ever". Something that ends is not eternal.

Likewise, Jesus said,

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Mat 25:1 KJV)

We can see here that the wicked will go into everlasting (aionios) punishment which we can see is everlasting (aioinios) fire. So, we need to understand what aionios fire is. Is it fire that burns for eternity? Well we have an example of aionios fire.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:1 KJV)

Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrha are an example of aionios fire. All we have to do is look to the middle east and see if these two cities are still burning today. We know they are not so that means they stopped burning, thus aionios fire isn't fire that burns for eternity.

There are lots of examples like this in the Scriptures showing that these words don't mean eternal.

Bible translators and those who write commentaries and dictionaries like everyone else have a bias and they write and translate the Scripture according to how they understand them.

 

[StanJ]

I think the question is whether man will be immortal in and of himself or if it is because God will continue to give him life. I submit it is the second, thus the need for the tree of life.

Well with nothing I know to the contrary, I would submit it is quite possible the tree of life in the NEW Jerusalem could be Jesus Himself. All the language is quite hyperbolic.
You either accept what Paul states at face value and look for another slant on Revelation, or you ignore what Paul says to your detriment. I choose the former, as is the case with ALL scripture we read.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi OzSpen,

I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about the afterlife at all, but rather about the demise of the priesthood. You suggested that the rich man was was an unbeliever, yet the Scriptures don't say that. Actually, the Scriptures don't say that either man was a believer or an unbeliever. There are a lot of reasons not to understand this parable as pertaining to life after death.

Butch5,

You have invented what this means as 'the demise of the priesthood'. There is not a word in the semantics of Luke 16:19-31 that talks about his. Your response is an invention.

But Luke 16 does talk about 'the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes' (Lk 16:22-23). The rich man wanted Lazarus to warn his brothers about the torment he was experiencing after death (v 28).

The facts are that there are two different people here, one going to Abraham's side (was Abraham a believer or not?) and another going to Hades and being in torment (the Scriptures elsewhere confirm that such a place is for unbelievers).

To say that this refers to the priesthood is to engage in eisegesis.

Oz

 

[ATP]

I don't see what "day and night" has to do with whether something is eternal or not.

Why wouldn't you think so. The words are in scripture so their obviously important. Ages of the ages is also used in Rev 4:9-10, as well as Rev 20:10.

ATP,

I find it difficult to accept these as meaning literal physical day and night.

That's because it's not literal, it's only figurative.

In the thread, we've been discussing whether human beings are immortal. I asked how 1 Cor 15:50-53 applies to this topic and what was the interpretation of these verses. I was simply proposing these verses for discussion to hopefully open up consideration for the 'immortality' (if so or not) of human beings.

But you're missing the timeline, that scripture is talking about the first resurrection. It's important to focus on your timeline.

Butch5,

You have invented what this means as 'the demise of the priesthood'. There is not a word in the semantics of Luke 16:19-31 that talks about his. Your response is an invention.

But Luke 16 does talk about 'the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes' (Lk 16:22-23). The rich man wanted Lazarus to warn his brothers about the torment he was experiencing after death (v 28).

The facts are that there are two different people here, one going to Abraham's side (was Abraham a believer or not?) and another going to Hades and being in torment (the Scriptures elsewhere confirm that such a place is for unbelievers).

To say that this refers to the priesthood is to engage in eisegesis.

Oz

Actually, I would agree with Butch on that one.

Using parables to describe life after death would not be the best way to go. Hades is only used once in the Bible as hell fire, in Luke 16:19-31. The remainder of the Bible, Hades is the grave. I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. The Song of Moses was a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding too. Hell in this passage of Deu 32 is Sheol. Because Sheol/Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire. I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses...

Deut 32:18-22 YLT The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee. 19And Jehovah seeth and despiseth — For the provocation of His sons and His daughters. 20And He saith: I hide My face from them, I see what [is] their latter end; For a froward generation [are] they, Sons in whom is no stedfastness. 21They have made Me zealous by ‘no-god,’ They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by ‘no-people,’ By a foolish nation I make them angry. 22For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol — the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains.

The Priesthood - I'm thinking that he used Hades instead of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, so we would make the distinction between the priesthood in this life vs. the afterlife. If Luke used Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, then we would be certain he was referring to the afterlife, but he didn't. So we know he was simply telling a story about the demise of the priesthood and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Luke could of wrote it like this, but he didn't......

Example 1: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Gehenna, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Example 2: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In the Lake of Fire, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.

2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.

3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.

- ATP

 

[StanJ]

Eternal life, that is immortality, is given to the redeemed, those who are in Christ, as a gift. It is not given to the lost. Without the gift of eternal life, one cannot live eternally, they (unsaved sinners)are therefore mortal beings who shall surely die.

Stan,...1... do you have any scriptural evidence that heaven is not the same as 'paradise'? ...2...the New Jerusalem is a present existing city in paradise (heaven) where God now reigns on His throne, from which flows the river of life, and beside which grows the tree of life. This city Stan will one day descend out of heaven onto the new earth. What John saw in Revelation were two distinct scenes. The present city in heaven, and that same city arriving on the new earth. Even now, Jesus is preparing a place for us in that city. See John 14:2. It is described by Jesus as His Father's house.

Stan, hi again. Read again Genesis and how we were made. Our Creator formed us from dust...the 'body'....breathed into that inanimate lump of mud the breath of life.....the spirit....and man became a living soul. Man does not have a soul that is a separate life-form apart from the body, man is a soul.

Eternal LIFE is just that, LIFE. Eternal punishment is reserved for the souls of those that don't receive eternal life. Matt 25:46

Jesus referred to them as separate places and made it clear only God inhabits heaven. I'm pretty sure I've quoted these scriptures already in this thread.
I do believe the NEW Jerusalem already existed when Jesus made this statement in John 14, and reading Revelation would seem to indicate special places are there for the apostles.

You keep making this assertion WITHOUT scriptural corroboration, just assumption. The totality of scripture, as I have already shown, shows we are tripartite and CAN be separated. God created life, but procreation was part of that creation, which means it is self perpetuating. Sorry if you can't understand that.

 

[Butch5]

Well with nothing I know to the contrary, I would submit it is quite possible the tree of life in the NEW Jerusalem could be Jesus Himself. All the language is quite hyperbolic.
You either accept what Paul states at face value and look for another slant on Revelation, or you ignore what Paul says to your detriment. I choose the former, as is the case with ALL scripture we read.

It's possible, however, since the Tree of Life is spoken of in very beginning of Scripture I think it is the same thing in Revelation. Regarding Paul's statement, while he may not tell us how one is immortal in that passage, he does tell us that the Father alone has immortality. He said that after Jesus had risen from the dead. That suggests to me that Jesus too is receiving life from the Father. If that is the case it seems to me that we will be immortal by God giving us life continuously rather than in and of ourselves.