12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

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logabe

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ATP said:
There is no second chance for salvation after you die. This life is all you get. Choose it wisely. Rom 10:9-10.
What do you think happens @ the Great White Throne? Isa. 45:23 says,

23 “I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from
My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to

me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.


At some point in biblical history everyone that has ever lived will confess the Lord Jesus. Why? Because
God swears it will happen @ His appointed time. I don't know about you, but I believe Him. Not only will
they confess Him, but they will bow in humility. That sounds like they have just received salvation that
Paul conveyed to us in Romans 10:9-10.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 
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ATP

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logabe said:
What do you think happens @ the Great White Throne? Isa. 45:23 says,

23 “I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from
My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to

me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.


At some point in biblical history everyone that has ever lived will confess the Lord Jesus. Why? Because
God swears it will happen @ His appointed time. I don't know about you, but I believe Him. Not only will
they confess Him, but they will bow in humility. That sounds like they have just received salvation that
Paul conveyed to us in Romans 10:9-10.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
It's a nice scripture, but your timing is off. The Last Great Day foreshadows the Great White Throne Judgment period. Isa 45:23 is referring to people that are still alive in the world on the Last Day. "All you ends of the earth" is referring to people that are still alive on earth..(Isa 45:22 NIV “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.)
 

logabe

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ATP said:
It's a nice scripture, but your timing is off. The Last Great Day foreshadows the Great White Throne Judgment period. Isa 45:23 is referring to people that are still alive in the world on the Last Day. "All you ends of the earth" is referring to people that are still alive on earth..(Isa 45:22 NIV “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.)
Wow... I'll take it. You are saying that every person that is upon the earth when the last
Day has arrived will be saved. That's about seven billion people. We'll work on the others
@ a later date.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

logabe

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ATP said:
Most Christians don't believe 7 billion people will be saved anyway, so that's a very good
start. If someone can believe that all of the people will be saved @ the end of the Age, it's
not a very big stretch for them to believe that God has the power to reconcile the rest of
the creation, but they will have to SEE for themselves when that day comes.

Thomas had to SEE for himself that Jesus was raised from the dead, although Jesus taught
him for three years and told him that on the third day he would rise. Yes Thomas, you believe
now, because you see me, but blessed is the man that hasn't seen me and still believes.

That's where we are when it comes to the purpose and plan of God. It's hard for us to believe
that God is able to reconcile the creation, because we live in a dominated carnally minded world
that thinks it is impossible for God to do what He said He was going to do. It's called unbelief, and
as Christians, we are exposed to that thinking everyday. We have to die daily, so we can allow God
to perfect His purpose and plan within our hearts and minds, and cause us to overcome our unbelief.

God is able... and He is giving us the opportunity to believe what His Word says. We can water it down
to fit our religious mindsets, but is that what we actually want to do? I don't think so. Let's get real and
understand we are in a battle for the true Word of God that can change our perspectives in a moment.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

ATP

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logabe said:
Most Christians don't believe 7 billion people will be saved anyway, so that's a very good
start. If someone can believe that all of the people will be saved @ the end of the Age, it's
not a very big stretch for them to believe that God has the power to reconcile the rest of
the creation, but they will have to SEE for themselves when that day comes.

Thomas had to SEE for himself that Jesus was raised from the dead, although Jesus taught
him for three years and told him that on the third day he would rise. Yes Thomas, you believe
now, because you see me, but blessed is the man that hasn't seen me and still believes.

That's where we are when it comes to the purpose and plan of God. It's hard for us to believe
that God is able to reconcile the creation, because we live in a dominated carnally minded world
that thinks it is impossible for God to do what He said He was going to do. It's called unbelief, and
as Christians, we are exposed to that thinking everyday. We have to die daily, so we can allow God
to perfect His purpose and plan within our hearts and minds, and cause us to overcome our unbelief.

God is able... and He is giving us the opportunity to believe what His Word says. We can water it down
to fit our religious mindsets, but is that what we actually want to do? I don't think so. Let's get real and
understand we are in a battle for the true Word of God that can change our perspectives in a moment.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
Do you believe when a nonbeliever dies, he has a second chance at salvation at the Great White Throne?
 

logabe

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ATP said:
Do you believe when a nonbeliever dies, he has a second chance at salvation at the Great White Throne?
Without a doubt... Let me explain. I believe we all can agree that God knows all things from the beginning
to the end. Do you think God knew that multitudes were not going to listen to Moses @ Mount Sinai? Do you
believe that God knew that multitudes were not going to listen to Jesus 1500 years later? Do you believe that
God knew that multitudes wouldn't listen to Him today? Sure He did. That's why we have to follow his plan or
we will believe that God has failed to do what His Word says He will do. What is that? Col 1:16-20 says,

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through Him and for Him.
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace
through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth
or things in heaven.

Paul is telling us that Jesus created "all things" and all things will be reconciled through His blood, whether
the created things is in the heavens or on the earth. In other words, Jesus will subdue His enemies through
His Love and Mercy that He performed on the cross.

The question is... what is all things. Did Jesus create all of the human race? Well, according to Paul, He says
that He will reconcile them in the future. That's what we can't believe, because we have been taught that after
the deadline of death, then, there is judgment. Some how we have been taught that judgment has no mercy.

Isa. teaches us, "when judgment is in the land people will learn righteousness" Isa. 26:9. So according
to Isaiah, judgment establishes an ability to learn righteousness and can be helpful to those who are unlearned.

John told us what Jesus said He came for. What was that? John 9:39 says,

39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who
do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

So according to Jesus, judgment gives us the ability to see or understand when it has done it's job. That is what
Jesus came to do. Now we can begin to understand the purpose of the Judgment of the Great White Throne!!!

I'm going to leave you with this.

Matthew 12:20 says,

20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench,
till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Wow!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

ATP

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logabe said:
Col 1:16-20 says,

Well, according to Paul, He says that He will reconcile them in the future.
That's not what it's saying. He already reconciled to himself all things 2,000 years ago when he died on the cross. The timeline is the cross, past tense. He already reconciled all things, now it is up to people to make a choice to accept the cross.

Col 1:16-20 NIV and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

logabe said:
Isa. teaches us, "when judgment is in the land people will learn righteousness" Isa. 26:9. So according
to Isaiah, judgment establishes an ability to learn righteousness and can be helpful to those who are unlearned.
But what does this have to do with waiting until the GWT to accept Jesus as Savior. This is talking about people still alive on earth.

logabe said:
John told us what Jesus said He came for. What was that? John 9:39 says,

39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who
do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

So according to Jesus, judgment gives us the ability to see or understand when it has done it's job. That is what
Jesus came to do. Now we can begin to understand the purpose of the Judgment of the Great White Throne!!!
But notice in verse 39 it says I came into this world, so that those who...
what world is he talking about? This old earth or the afterlife?
This old earth of course. It has nothing to do with the GWT

logabe said:
I'm going to leave you with this.

Matthew 12:20 says,

20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench,
till he send forth judgment unto victory.
But what does this have to do with waiting until the GWT to accept Jesus as Savior. This is talking about people still alive on earth.

If logabe has an excuse not to accept Jesus as Savior while he is still alive, then Rom 1:20 should have never been written.

Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
 

logabe

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ATP said:
That's not what it's saying. He already reconciled to himself all things 2,000 years ago when he died on the cross. The timeline is the cross, past tense. He already reconciled all things, now it is up to people to make a choice to accept the cross.
Exactly... and they will accept the cross @ the G.W.T. Judgment. Right now, as Christians, we only see Jesus.
But (Hebrews 2:8) says,

8 For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to
him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

Col 1:16-20 NIV and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


But what does this have to do with waiting until the GWT to accept Jesus as Savior. This is talking about people still alive on earth.
That's my point. Most Christians don't realize what God has been doing for the last six thousand years.
They think God is dealing with everyone in this Age, but He is just dealing with the Lost sheep of the
House of Israel. Isn't that what Jesus said?

By the way, who is the Lost sheep? It is people that God has dealt with in the past generations like David,
Moses, Abraham, but most of the people in those days failed God, such as Israel itself. Is God going to
throw Israel away because of their disobedience. No... but He will raise them up and correct them for
their unbelief @ the G.W.T. Judgment because He still LOVES THEM.

But notice in verse 39 it says I came into this world, so that those who...
what world is he talking about? This old earth or the afterlife?
This old earth of course. It has nothing to do with the GWT
If you look that word world up in the Greek, you will find Jesus actually was talking about the AGE they were living in.
He came on the 4th day to bring resurrection to Lazarus, so we could have a second chance to accept Him now, but
if we don't accept Him now, He established a way for the rebellious to come into the Kingdom through the G.W.T. by
His resurrection. Because of His act on the cross, God calls what is not, as though it is (Romans 4:17). In other words,
all things are not submitted to Him yet (Hebrew 2:8), but God says it has already happened or there's no doubt that it
is going to happen.

But what does this have to do with waiting until the GWT to accept Jesus as Savior. This is talking about people still alive on earth.

If logabe has an excuse not to accept Jesus as Savior while he is still alive, then Rom 1:20 should have never been written.
Why? God was telling us that as Christians we all know that God is real, but if we neglect so great a salvation in
this Age or any age that a person is living in, God will turn us over to a reprobate mind. Why? Because we know
better, but the lost don't know because they are already made subject to this vanity because of Adam's sin.
Rom. 8:20 says,

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because
of Him who subjected it, in hope

Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.



What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
 

ATP

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logabe said:
What a God! What a Plan!
Logabe
Heb 2:8, well of course we don't see everything subject to him. Only God is omnipresent. This has nothing to do with the GWT.

logabe said:
By the way, who is the Lost sheep? It is people that God has dealt with in the past generations like David,
Moses, Abraham, but most of the people in those days failed God, such as Israel itself. Is God going to
throw Israel away because of their disobedience. No... but He will raise them up and correct them for
their unbelief @ the G.W.T. Judgment because He still LOVES THEM.
You're stating two different types of people here. People existing in the OT without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Jews in Israel. God will judge those before Christ resurrection and after Christ resurrection differently. Logabe exists after Christ resurrection. In regards to Jews, regardless if they are Jews or not they must be born again in this lifetime. ALL people existing after Christ resurrection must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Consider John 3:10 NIV.

John 3:1-10 NIV Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” 9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

logabe said:
If you look that word world up in the Greek, you will find Jesus actually was talking about the AGE they were living in.
He came on the 4th day to bring resurrection to Lazarus, so we could have a second chance to accept Him now, but
if we don't accept Him now, He established a way for the rebellious to come into the Kingdom through the G.W.T. by
His resurrection.
But when Lazarus was resurrected, he had a second chance on earth, not the GWT.

The root of your belief is false. You need to fix your root in order to understand this.

logabe said:
Why? God was telling us that as Christians we all know that God is real, but if we neglect so great a salvation in

this Age or any age that a person is living in, God will turn us over to a reprobate mind. Why? Because we know

better, but the lost don't know because they are already made subject to this vanity because of Adam's sin.
Actually, the word "reprobate" doesn't apply to believers..

The definition includes the word "wicked". - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reprobate?s=t

And as we all know, believers will not be thrown into the Lake of Fire..

Rev 20:15 NIV Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary - http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-15.htm

After the events just foretold, the end will speedily come; and there is no mention of any thing else, before the appearing of Christ to judge the world. This will be the great day: the Judge, the Lord Jesus Christ, will then put on majesty and terror. The persons to be judged are the dead, small and great; young and old, low and high, poor and rich. None are so mean, but they have some talents to account for; and none so great, as to avoid having to account for them. Not only those alive at the coming of Christ, but all the dead. There is a book of remembrance both for good and bad: and the book of the sinner's conscience, though formerly secret, will then be opened. Every man will recollect all his past actions, though he had long forgotten many of them. Another book shall be opened, the book of the Scriptures, the rule of life; it represents the Lord's knowledge of his people, and his declaring their repentance, faith, and good works; showing the blessings of the new covenant. By their works men shall be justified or condemned; he will try their principles by their practices. Those justified and acquitted by the gospel, shall be justified and acquitted by the Judge, and shall enter into eternal life, having nothing more to fear from death, or hell, or wicked men; for these are all destroyed together. This is the
second death; it is the final separation of sinners from God. Let it be our great concern to see whether our Bibles justify or condemn us now; for Christ will judge the secrets of all men according to the gospel. Who shall dwell with devouring flames?

The definition also includes the word "condemn". - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reprobate?s=t

And as we all know, believers are no longer condemned because they have been forgiven of past, present and future sins.

Rom 8:1 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

- ATP
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
Why not? Our spirit is (inside) our body.
ATP, our thoughts, emotions, memories, and dreams began their existence down here when the Spirit of Life entered us.

When we die, the Spirit returns to God EXACTLY as IT was when IT came forth:
  • It came forth from God without our thoughts and returns to God the same way.
  • It came forth from God without our emotions and returns to God the same way.
  • It came forth from God without our memory and returns to God the same way.
  • It came forth from God without our dreams and returns to God the same way.
"The living know that they shall die but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING." Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV

If you can find me just one single Scripture says otherwise, then I'll believe the dead are conscious.
 

StanJ

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, our thoughts, emotions, memories, and dreams began their existence down here when the Spirit of Life entered us.

When we die, the Spirit returns to God EXACTLY as IT was when IT came forth:
  • It came forth from God without our thoughts and returns to God the same way.
  • It came forth from God without our emotions and returns to God the same way.
  • It came forth from God without our memory and returns to God the same way.
  • It came forth from God without our dreams and returns to God the same way.
"The living know that they shall die but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING." Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV

If you can find me just one single Scripture says otherwise, then I'll believe the dead are conscious.
Well if it's just one you want then go ahead and read Luke 16:23-25
 

ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
ATP, our thoughts, emotions, memories, and dreams began their existence down here when the Spirit of Life entered us.

When we die, the Spirit returns to God EXACTLY as IT was when IT came forth:
  • It came forth from God without our thoughts and returns to God the same way.
  • It came forth from God without our emotions and returns to God the same way.
  • It came forth from God without our memory and returns to God the same way.
  • It came forth from God without our dreams and returns to God the same way.
"The living know that they shall die but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING." Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV

If you can find me just one single Scripture says otherwise, then I'll believe the dead are conscious.
I agree with you on the soul sleep stuff. The dead are definitely unconscious until first resurrection.
StanJ said:
Well if it's just one you want then go ahead and read Luke 16:23-25
Luke 16:19-31: Hades is only used once in the Bible as hell fire, in Luke 16:19-31. The remainder of the Bible, Hades is the grave. I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. The Song of Moses was a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding too. Hell in this passage of Deu 32 is Sheol. Because Sheol/Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire. I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses...

Deut 32:18-22 YLT The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee. 19And Jehovah seeth and despiseth — For the provocation of His sons and His daughters. 20And He saith: I hide My face from them, I see what [is] their latter end; For a froward generation [are] they, Sons in whom is no stedfastness. 21They have made Me zealous by ‘no-god,’ They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by ‘no-people,’ By a foolish nation I make them angry. 22For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol — the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains.

The Priesthood - I'm thinking that he used Hades instead of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, so we would make the distinction between the priesthood in this life vs. the afterlife. If Luke used Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, then we would be certain he was referring to the afterlife, but he didn't. So we know he was simply telling a story about the demise of the priesthood and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Luke could of wrote it like this, but he didn't......

Example 1: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Gehenna, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Example 2: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In the Lake of Fire, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.

2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.

3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.

- ATP
 

StanJ

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I wasn't referring to Hades ATP, I was referencing Paradise. What Jesus did also reference here was how many Israelites would still not believe Jesus' gospel even after He rose from the dead. My point was that there is consciousness AFTER death.
 

ATP

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StanJ said:
Well there is Jesus' promise to the thief that he would see him THAT day in paradise.
That would be translator bias. There were no commas in the original manuscripts.
Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19 would be describing a future event on the New Earth. Paradise and the tree of life.

The thief didn't care about what day he would enter the kingdom, he just wanted to be a part of it.

Luke 23:42 NIV Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
 

StanJ

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ATP said:
That would be translator bias. There were no commas in the original manuscripts.Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19 would be describing a future event on the New Earth. Paradise and the tree of life.
The thief didn't care about what day he would enter the kingdom, he just wanted to be a part of it.

Luke 23:42 NIV Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Of course NOT...it didn't have ANY punctuation, so what's your point? Are you advocating Jesus did not say "TODAY you will be with me in paradise", meaning THAT day they would both be in paradise, in v43, or are you trying to assert that Jesus had to remind the thief he was talking in the present tense by saying today?!!!
Puleez give me a break. The only bias I see is your ridiculous fairy tale.
 

KingJ

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ATP said:
That would be translator bias. There were no commas in the original manuscripts.

Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19 would be describing a future event on the New Earth. Paradise and the tree of life.

The thief didn't care about what day he would enter the kingdom, he just wanted to be a part of it.

Luke 23:42 NIV Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Hi ATP

God paid our ransom with His life. So if He keeps any of His people sitting at an airport, there must / would be a very good reason for it.

Is there one?
 

ATP

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StanJ said:
Of course NOT...it didn't have ANY punctuation, so what's your point? Are you advocating Jesus did not say "TODAY you will be with me in paradise", meaning THAT day they would both be in paradise, in v43, or are you trying to assert that Jesus had to remind the thief he was talking in the present tense by saying today?!!!
Puleez give me a break. The only bias I see is your ridiculous fairy tale.
You didn't address the scriptures I posted.

Our spirit is also our breath. I don't think our "breath" would be walking around in the third heaven.

Hense the fairy tale.