2 Thess 2:3 -- apostasia

[ATP]

Dear ATP,
You are not following.

One 24 hour day future, the world will be completely destroyed by fire.
Everything will be gone, except for the elect of God (they will miraculously survive).
Then, when they are left in nothingness, they will be gathered and taken up, (still alive, never died).

Do you follow?

No I don't. You need to study more. You seem lost in your theology. Also, where is your scripture to prove postrib rapture?

 

[amani]

ATP,
I don't need to study more,
I am not lost in theology,
I trust God.

Do you want scriptures regarding post trib?
Have you not been presented with them yet?

 

[ATP]

Do you want scriptures regarding post trib?
Have you not been presented with them yet?

No I haven't. Go for it.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

But if the hour of trial is being beheaded, then God is a liar Rev 3:10.

Why do you fanatically try to say anyone makes God out to be a liar automatically? I would never say that as a first response.

The conundrum you're experiencing is your misunderstanding of tereo ek which is not an iron-clad total protection, but one in which God "watches out" for you.

Jesus prayed the same for the Disciples and 11 out of 12 were martyred.

God will not "lose" you when He "watches out" for you.

 

[ATP]

The conundrum you're experiencing is your misunderstanding of tereo ek which is not an iron-clad total protection, but one in which God "watches out" for you.

Which He will be doing in heaven. He watches over us in heaven.

 

[amani]

No I haven't. Go for it.

Hi ATP,

[SIZE=10pt]The evidence for post-trib can be seen (for example) in Matthew 23 and 24. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]In 23 Jesus tells the disciples that Jerusalem will be left desolate, (34-39). This continues on into chapter 24 where Jesus tells the disciples more regarding Jerusalem’s destruction, and how the disciples will be delivered up to tribulation, and how they will be hated by all nations (the Greek word means the nations around Jerusalem in those days). There will be false christs, wars and rumours of wars, earthquakes, a falling away, false prophets, wickedness, love growing cold, the gospel preached throughout the ‘world’ (Roman world).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The ‘desolating sacrilege’ was the warning to the Disciples and the early church to flee to the mountains, which they did. They fled to Pella in 66 – 67 AD. Three and a half years later, Jerusalem was laid desolate (70 AD) just as Jesus said. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The early church were not taken out of the world by a rapture, they were given safety (in Pella), but they still suffered for their belief, just as Christ said they would.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Verse 21 then continues (regarding the world today) with ‘the great tribulation’, such has not been since the beginning of the ‘earth’. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Again there will be false prophets and false christs (could be spiritual and literal - including a false advent). We are warned not to believe if they say he is 'here or there', because when he does come, he will shine from the east to the west (in blazing fire – 2nd Thessalonians 1.7, and 2nd Peter chapter 3), and every eye will see (because of the brightness). Before the coming, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven, and the power of the heavens will be shaken. The whole world will mourn at the ‘sign’ of his coming because of the brightness. Then heaven and earth will pass away.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]But the elect will remain, and then be taken up, (1st Thessalonians 4.13-18, etc). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The early church were not taken up (alive), but they suffered just as we might have to. If our belief is strong we will suffer even unto death. If it is weak, we will give up our belief. Can you see? If others have to suffer, why do you think Christians will be spared? Would it not be a time to show your light in a dark world? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][45][/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt][46] Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.
[47] Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
[48] But if that wicked servant says to himself, `My master is delayed,'
[49] and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eats and drinks with the drunken,
[50] the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know,
[51] and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]More?[/SIZE]

 

[amani]

Revelations 14.12. Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them”

Revelation 12.17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

 

[ATP]

Revelations 14.12. Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them”

Revelation 12.17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

It looks like Rev 6:9-11 is a dual prophecy though. Believers before rapture and believers that come to faith after rapture.

 

[amani]

It looks like Rev 6:9-11 is a dual prophecy though. Believers before rapture and believers that come to faith after rapture.

Rev 6:9-11 could be:
1) the disciples, and early church tribulations.
2) the great tribulation of the entire earth.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Which He will be doing in heaven. He watches over us in heaven.

God is also Spirit, so He is as close to you as the air is to your nose.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Rev 14:12. "Their deeds follow them." It is by faith that we come to Jesus and then our deeds prove that faith.

Those who are to die number at least two: the Two Witnesses. Any other Christian left behind that is to have a place in Heaven, must also be martyred.

This is said right before the Harvest for those who are not harvested with the Elect who remain and are still alive after the Great Tribulation is shortened by God. (I think the reason it is shortened so some survive, is to provide witness to the Rapture.)

The timing of Rev 14:12 is right before the Day of the Lord Rapture, after the midpoint of the one 'seven', and after the Great Tribulation.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Rev 12:17 mirrors the half of the one 'seven' presented before.

In this chapter are two, twin, parallel accounts.

The first goes from the time of Jesus' birth to the second half of the one 'seven'.
It focuses on the woman, Israel.

The second goes from the time of Jesus' Ascension (and the expulsion of Satan) to the second half of the one 'seven'.
It focuses on the serpent, Satan.

The timing of 12:17 is the midpoint when the first batch of Remnant Jews flee Judea.
With the midpoint, comes the Great Tribulation in which the anti-Christ persecutes us.

This verse also shows the difference between the Remnant Jews and the Elect.
The Jews do not yet worship Jesus; we do.

 

[ATP]

Marcus. What is the strongest scripture you have that proves mid-trib rapture? What scripture settles it for you.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Pre-Wrath is not mid-trib.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gives us the keystone linear narrative, (written with parallel construction) whereby He spells out five, specific and unique events in their proper order.

This order is preserved throughout end-time prophesy.

In the detailed, parallel portion, Jesus starts at the midpoint:
1. The abomination in the Temple (the talking image of Rev 13)
2. The Great Tribulation (which follows by two laws enacted with the erection of the talking image)
3. And those days are shortened (abruptly) by the sun/moon/star event (which precedes the Day of the Lord)
4. The sign of the Son of Man (which I associate with Isaiah's scrolling of the sky - also with the sixth seal)
5. Jesus coming on the clouds

And with that gathers up the Elect, which itself is a sixth event and that is the Rapture.

 

[ATP]

Pre-Wrath is not mid-trib.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gives us the keystone linear narrative, (written with parallel construction) whereby He spells out five, specific and unique events in their proper order.

This order is preserved throughout end-time prophesy.

In the detailed, parallel portion, Jesus starts at the midpoint:
1. The abomination in the Temple (the talking image of Rev 13)
2. The Great Tribulation (which follows by two laws enacted with the erection of the talking image)
3. And those days are shortened (abruptly) by the sun/moon/star event (which precedes the Day of the Lord)
4. The sign of the Son of Man (which I associate with Isaiah's scrolling of the sky - also with the sixth seal)
5. Jesus coming on the clouds

And with that gathers up the Elect, which itself is a sixth event and that is the Rapture.

I noticed something here, the word "distress" and "those days". What is defined as "distress" here, God's wrath?

Matt 24:21 NIV For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Matt 24:22 NIV “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Matt 24:29 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Do you also believe the first four seals are a part of God's wrath? Matt 24:4-14 NIV, Rev 6:16-17 NIV, or will they occur in the first half of the seven year trib. - ATP

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The Great Tribulation is when Rev 13:14-15 is enacted and enforced. We are specifically told not to follow those man-made laws more than once.

The Great Tribulation is the persecution of the anti-Christ and the false prophet along with the principality of the fourth terrible beast. Behind them lies Satan.

The first four Seals are part of the broad overview Jesus gives in the first part of the Olivet Discourse. As such, it is my thinking that they lead to the conditions we are seeing g today; that they pave the way to the end-times. I think they are already at work in this world.

The Wrath of God is in the form of desolations upon the earth. Those desolations He has decreed are written and contained within the Scroll. Jesus is the only one who can break the Seals, and their whole point is to get to unleashing the desolations held within the Scroll.