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2 Things to : "study to show yourself approved"

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Behold, Jan 12, 2022.

  1. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    -
    1.) There are no born again, in Hell

    2.) There are no Christ rejectors, in Heaven.


    One more time...


    1.) There are no born again, in Hell

    2.) There are no Christ rejectors, in Heaven
     
  2. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    But in reality, the abode of the wicked often called "hell" in the KJV is in... the Heavenly dimension.

    Lord Jesus showed us with the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 that the abode of the wicked called hell is across a great gulf in Paradise, the other side being where Abraham and God's servants are. And Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 2:4, he revealed a deeper area in that hell, like a prison, with the Greek word tartaroo, which means 'the deepest abyss of Hades' (NT:5020). Isaiah 42:7 was the prophecy about Jesus at His resurrection would go to the "spirits in prison", and preach The Gospel to them, and lead those prisoners who believed out of the "prison", and "them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."
     
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  3. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Notice this...

    The rich man in "Luke".....this parable, is given before Jesus died on The CROSS.

    Understand?
    So, this "rich man" had no chance to "believe on Jesus" and be "SAVED", "born again", as there was no Jesus on the Cross yet. No Blood Atonement...Jesus had not died for the sin of the world, yet.....= No John 3:16 and John 3:17 yet.

    So, here is how to rightly divide The Word in cases like this..
    Always remember, ...When Jesus was alive, before He Died, He was only dealing with the House of Israel., and He was "under the law".
    See that?
    So, when He is teaching, He is talking to JEWS who are under the law of Moses, and that is the OLD Covenant....and that would include the verse you have posted about the 'rich man".

    After Jesus died on the Cross, the NEW Covenant and the NEW TESTAMENT began, and the "time of the Gentiles" began, and the Gospel of the GRACE of GOD came into effect as Paul showed up, and taught us that the "blood of Jesus" is a "one time eternal sacrifice", and we who have been born again, are not that Old Testament "rich man", who is under the law.......but rather we the born again, (not just water baptized) are not under the law, we are "under GRACE", and this Grace, is the blood atonement that is "Jesus became Sin" and we who are born again are become "the Righteousness of GOD", 'In Christ"....
    See that? That is the NEW Covenant, and the "rich man" "in hell" was not born again. There was no Christ on the Cross at that time.. There was no New Testament or New Covenant....which means that this "rich man in hell" verse you posted cannot be theologically or Doctrinally appled to a NEW Testament Born Again Believer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
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  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    All that above is a vain attempt to deny... the existence of the abode in the heavenly that Lord Jesus revealed in Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The abode of the wicked in Hades is a real place in the heavenly dimension. And so is the great gulf fixed border that Jesus revealed.

    Because the Jew's 'dead in the ground' tradition from Old Testament times, they also deny that our soul remains and is aware in the heavenly, which also is what Lord Jesus revealed in His story of Lazarus and the rich man, both having died with their flesh buried, yet both appearing in Paradise, Lazarus on the side with Abraham, but the rich man on the other side in hell experiencing torment.

    Also what is very revealing about Judaizers who keep orthodox Jewish traditions of men, they aren't that well versed in The New Testament Scriptures. Thus they miss little things like Jesus going to the "spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-20), at His resurrection to preach The Gospel to those in Satan's prison house, and leading those out that believed (as per the Isaiah 42:7 prophecy).

    And further, the Judaizers that keep to orthodox Jewish traditions also don't understand Scripture like Galatians 3 and Romans 4 and John 8 that reveals that The Gospel was preached to Abraham, and it was his Faith on God's Promise that is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ, all the way back in the times of Genesis forward. Thus Apostle Paul taught that those of Faith have become the children of Abraham.
     
  5. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    I denied nothing, except your attempt to use the OLD Testament Jewish situation, "under the law", to replace the New Covenant.

    Davy, are aware that the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant? And that the New Testament, has replaced, the Old Testament...literally, as well as Doctrinally and Theologically?

    Do you understand that there is no Christ on the Cross in the Old Testament?
    No Risen Christ?
    No Paul the Apostle?
    No "CHURCH"?
    No BODY OF CHRIST?

    Do you understand this?
    I don't think you do, Davy.

    So, when we are dealing with a verse that is Jesus teaching, before the Crucifixion and Resurrection, then this verse is OLD TESTAMENT,= doctrinally, as there is no NEW TESTAMENT yet created by the BLOOD of Jesus and the Cross of Christ.

    If you can come to see this reality, then you'll understand why the "rich man in hell" had no Cross of Christ to help Him.
    So...OT that situation, is not what the NT Born Again face, not ever.
    This means that the "Under the Law" Old Testament,...Old Covenant..."rich man in hell"... situation is not a NEW TESTAMENT New Covenant situation that can ever affect a born again Believer in Yeshua.
    Bottom line.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Your argument you are using with bringing in the old covenant vs. the New Covenant is simply moot. It is simply your way of denying what the actual Luke 16 Scripture Jesus is revealing is about, and that is about the abodes in the heavenly where Lazarus and the rich man went after they died. The story Jesus told there is simple, but you are 'trying'... to steer around that simplicity by making that Scripture into a silly debate between the old and New covenants.

    This is why I showed you about Christ's going to the "spirits in prison" at His resurrection. It's not important that He had not been crucified yet when He told that story about Lazarus and the rich man, because by that Luke 16 Scripture Jesus showed that already... there are servants of God that had been saved, and Abraham represented that. That is ALSO represented by the following event also, which happened PRIOR to Christ's death and resurrection too...

    Mark 9:2-5
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with Him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and He was transfigured before them.

    3 And His raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.


    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for Thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."
    KJV
     
  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    You're asking me if I believe in The New Covenant is also moot, because I am a Christian. So that's just a vain attempt to attack my credibility in Christ Jesus.

    Also your confusion arises because of your lack of understanding about God having saved, even before Christ's death and resurrection, saving some in Old Testament times like Abraham and the prophets, you have FAILED to heed the Scriptures, like these (John 8:56-58; Galatians 3:6-9; Romans 4:13; Genesis 14:18-20; Luke 20:37-38; and especially Ephesians 2:20 about the prophets also included as part of the foundation of the spiritual temple in Christ).

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached to Abraham, and he believed God, and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness. That was the official START of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is why Apostle Paul said The Gospel was preached to Abraham per Galatians 3, and Jesus also said that Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced, per John 8. So The Gospel has been around a lot longer before Jesus was born in the flesh, and Apostle Paul and Jesus Himself revealed that.
     
  8. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for that. I was trying to figure out where this guy was coming from. It seems some of his posts are off. I just commented on another one referring to "The Rich Man in Hell". I guess he just wants to pontificate what he things he knows.
     
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  9. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    The smart play, would be to ask me, vs, just being confused and then turning to another confused member for support.

    Listen.,..

    Ask a question.
    Dont just sit there, wondering as you stated you are doing.
    just ASK ME.
    Its not hard.
    I'll answer you.
     
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  10. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    I do respond to you directly, but others on this forum may be more familiar with your views and where you are coming from. I see Israel. Are you a Messianic Jew? I have a little Jewish blood, but was raised by an atheist Dad and a rebellious Mom who had a bad 5-year experience in the Catholic Orphanage as a child. The nuns slapped her hands, oh my! The story that was told hundred times. I told her, they didn't slap you enough! She'd always laugh. Both I believe finally came to the Lord just before death. As I told you in another thread, we never know who is written in the Book of Life so we need to be careful with judgments and condemnation against people who we might think are reprobate. We will be surprised when we get there to see those whom we thought were destined for destruction. However, some are destined for destruction, like the Rich Man!.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  11. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    My wife is a Messianic Jew....Im just a spiritual one.

    Also, There is no reprobate or sinner or anything like this in the Kingdom of God., where all the born again exist, already.
    "translated from Darkness ... TO Light"..
    This has already happened to us.... by us being born again SPIRITUALLY.....as the KOG is a Spiritual Kingdom of LIGHT.
    The born again are "children of the Light", and Jesus is the "Light of the World".

    The problem with understanding all this, is........ the part of us that is redeemed, saved, is ONLY the born again Spirit.
    This part of us, is what God has turned into a SON, that is : "in Christ".
    Its difficult to wrap your head around the fact that our mind and body, are not redeemed....Its only our Spirit that has been born again into God's Spirit by God's Holy Spirit. And its only this that God sees when He looks at us.

    We, as people, are down here ... we have a mind and a body....and that is a carnal natural realm level that is always a problem to deal with...
    Yet, our born again spirit, is ALREADY in Heaven, (seated in heavenly places In Christ), and our born again Spirit, is already become this...
    = "As Christ IS, so are the born again...in this world".

    Se, that is the Eternal Reality, regarding who the born again have become, already "in Christ".
    The born again are already "ONE WITH GOD"....Spiritually..
    But our body, and our mind, are not born again, are not redeemed... So, most believers only see themselves as..>"what i do" "what i think', "am i good today.".."How is my behavior"....and that is the wrong (natural) mind. That is the mind of the flesh, that can't discern or receive the correct understanding of what it means to be born again, and already exist in the Kingdom of God..."in Christ".
    So this wrong mind (flesh) is what creates denominations and heretics and heresy..., this fleshly understanding and mentality, will always oppose the truth of "who you have become in Christ"......until our mind is : RENEWED.
    Paul says we are to 'Renew" our minds, as this does not happen unless we do it= continually.
    And until we learn HOW>... which is to only see ourselves as God has recreated us to be, Spiritually, as who we are LITERALLY...then we have the wrong mind, and the wrong perspective regarding "Christianity".
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  12. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    Of course not.

    Be careful. We are born again spirits. We are in Christ, but we are individuals, we are not the SPIRIT of God. God's Spirit communes with our spirit in our temple. Each of us is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, where we also commune with the Father and the Son. So our spiritual self has been purified and sanctified, yet we still possess our flesh, where sin dwells.

    The soul of man is: mind, will, emotions, personality, talents, etc., the invisible you.
    The spirit of man was dead and now created, a
    new creature.

    >> "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Heb. 4:12

    So if the Word can divide soul and spirit, they are not the same thing. However, they are highly integrated into man. The important thing to get is that when we die, our spirit (which is pure) is separated from our fleshly selves. Our spirit then is everything about us that is good, righteous and all the junk is left behind. So, we are not yet in heaven with Christ. Since He is God and omnipresent, we are here and so is He, though seated next to His Father and ours.
     
  13. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="Ronald David Bruno, post: 1210720, member: 9416". So, we are not yet in heaven with Christ.
    [/QUOTE]

    A born again person is "one with God".. "in Christ"...."seated in heavenly places"......"translated from Darkness to Light".....The Light being the Kingdom of God.

    So, the born again Spirit, is indeed in Heaven, as you can't be "in Christ", and 'One with God", unless you are where they are, Ronald.

    That is not "symbolic".
    Being "ONE" with God, and "IN Christ" is not a parable, or a symbolism.
    Its a born again fact that the spirit in a person, born again by God's Holy Spirit, NOW EXISTS, with God.

    Your body? = NOPE
    Your mind ? = NOPE
     
  14. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    To Behold,


    We are born again, in Christ. Christ is omnipresent, though He is seated in Heaven, He is everywhere as is the Holy Spirit.
    Our spirits are not in heaven until we die. Can you see angels and the throne and the wonders of heaven? No. What do you think our spirits are, blind, an unconscious essence or ourselves?

    You are off on your concepts. But it seems you are not teachable. And I would caution any believer to steer away from your false doctrines that you pontificate! It's not that you are evil or leading anyone away from Christ, it is just that you are confused about our spirit and state. We are aware of this reality and see dimly the spiritual realm ... we just aren't there yet!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  15. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Thank you!

    I have enlarged perhaps the greatest blunder committed by most of Christendom-- This is what Paul referred to when speaking of the need for "rightly dividing the word of truth."

    When Paul said "the word of truth" what we should all know he was talking about was specifically the gospel declared by Jesus. But instead, most assume it is not specific to the gospel, but includes some "right" way of looking at all scripture-- which is also true, as it "must be spiritually discerned." But that overlooks the very reason Paul brought it up, which, as he said, is "the word of truth" otherwise known as the gospel of Christ Jesus.

    In other words, the truth declared by Jesus in the gospels, has two (2) narratives, one to the house of Israel, and "another" to that other "fold" which He said He must also bring (which, as you said, are the born again of the spirit of God).

    This is the two-edged sword that cuts both ways-- that, yes, must be rightly divided.

    Whoever has an ear, let them hear!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  16. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    You want believers to not understand what it means to be "One with God" born again, simply because you can't comprehend it?
    You want sincere students of the word to not go deeper into Pauline Theology, simply because you are ignorant of it?

    Your not in a good place in your belief system.
    Never say or think you didnt' have the chance to listen, learn, and grow.
    So, thats on you Ronald.

    You are here wasting my time and taking up space on a Thread thats says the born again can't go to hell and the unbelievers can't go to heaven, and you are confused by these simple truths because you have no idea what it means to be "in Christ", tho you will pretend you are the bible authority.
    Yet, you have no idea what you are doing....
    None.
    You are reduced to trying to insult me, as all you can come up with, as you have now proven that you have no basic understanding of the Blood Atonement, or any actual relationship with Pauline Theology, and that is why you are lost in your confusion.
    You'll have to run to WIKI, to search "Pauline Theology", so that you can find out what that is, and then you'll come here and pretend you know all about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  17. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    This is 100% true Behold. You have my agreement.
     
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  18. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Hi Robert.

    sometimes, you are going to meet people on a Forum, who are not really born again.
    They are religious but lost.
    They have a "form of christianity, (having a form of godliness) but deny the power thereof"......Paul teaches in 2 Tim.

    These people talk "christianese"... they all have a few bibles, most of them are church members, and all of them are water baptized as for them its all about the "water".
    Most will try to prove that the Greek is the "original" and the "bible" is full of errors.
    = yet, they are not born again.
    What you talk to them about the Cross, and the Christ and the Blood of Jesus, and Eternal life, you are speaking Backwards Chinese to them.
    They have no idea what you are talking about.
    But if you talk about water, works, commandments, enduring to the end, the old testament, or regarding some obscure verse in The Revelation, then they are fully focused.

    Let me show you how to spot the heretic, the liar, the deceiver.
    = They will live on forums to try to convince real born again believers, that they might be a "vessel fitted for destruction"', or they will try to convince real believers that they can "lose their salvation", and that The Grace of God, is really not Grace, its actually trying to stay saved by self effort.

    Here is what you can ask them, so that you can reveal them to be deceived, or lost.

    Ask them.....>"Why does the blood of Jesus that saved you, keep you saved".

    They will stare at this concept like they are looking at a complex math equation.....totally confused, and will want to argue that the blood of Jesus, does not keep you saved, but rather your self effort keeps you saved.
    See that? That is Christ Rejection, pretending to be a Christian.
    Thats a carnal devil, revealed.

    When you find these truth mockers, and they are like infections on Christian Forums, just mark them down, offer them some help, and then move on to the real believers, who are actually born again and not deceived.
     
  19. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    Your theology is way off. You have no concept the human spirit. You believe we are in heaven already! LOL Tell me, what does heaven look like? Are you conscious of your surroundings in heaven? I guess you think we are all asleep in spirit up there ... or something?
    WHEN WE DIE WE GO TO HEAVEN. I AM STILL HERE. THERE ARE PEOPLE IN HEAVEN NOW - PROBABLY OVER A BILLION.
    YOU NEED TO STUDY THIS PASSAGE OVER AND OVER AGAIN:

    "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling if indeed, when we have taken it off we will not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden, because we wish not to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
    So we are always confident; even though we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." 2 COR. 5:1-8
     
  20. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Of course.

    Notice this verse. "seated in heavenly places "IN Christ".

    Notice this verse...>"One With God".

    So, where is Christ and God?
    Both are in Heaven, and the born again Spirit, (that is every real believer), is with them...as "born again".

    Your body, is not there yet.
    Your mind is not born again.

    So, the issue you have, ......lets say you are born again and not just water baptized..........., then the issue you have, is that you do not yet know how to see yourself as "the righteousness of God in Christ".
    You are not yet to the place of revelation where you understand that the real you, is the "Son of God", and that is the born again Spirit.
    Not your body, or your mind.
    You can't SEE this yet, because you are not in the mind that is renewed to be able to SEE who you have become, as a "new Creation".

    You only talk about the body, the person, the human, the flesh........and that is because you do not have the revelation of what it means to be born again, "in Christ", "one with God", = having become a NEW CREATiON in Christ.

    That's your issue.
    And if you are not born again, you will never be able to hear me, or understand "in Christ", until you are born again.
    This is not water baptized, Ronald.
     
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