23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[Ronald Nolette]

You just admitted my allegation in your post. Rev 20 is all you have. Notwithstanding, you force a faulty private meaning on that much-debated text that contradicts the climactic detail of the rest of Scripture.

Where in that chapter does it teach Jesus introducing an earthly kingdom at the second coming?

Where in that chapter does it teach the Jews would see Him again when a condition is met?

No, your allegation is just a construct because it demolishes your entire theory that Jesus does not have an earthly kingdom.

I do not force a faulty private meaning- it is you that does. I accept the passage as written. You are the one who comes up with new definitions, new meanings and rewrites of God because He wrote in such a code that only initiate adepts could hope to "get it"

And teh biblical fact that Jesus establishes a kingdom on earth is so well established in Scripture, only the foolish reject it. Just because it is spelled out in detail in Chapter 20- boo-hoo for you. But it does show that those who were killed for not taking the mark, are resurrected and live and reign with christ for 1,000 years.

You know Jesus returning in Chapter 19, Matt. 24, and a whole bunch of OT verses, if you bothered to read the Bible

 

[Trekson]

I understand.



Not really. I've made a lot of generalities that cover the full gamut of Premillennialism. These are classic errors i see in the general position.



According to who? The beast and his army embrace all who are not in the Lamb's book of life. That sure sounds all-inclusive to me.

What degree of influence does the “the beast,” “antichrist,” the “mystery of iniquity,” truly possess according to Scripture?

Revelation 13:3-4 states, “all the world wondered [Gr. thaumazo, or admired and marveled] after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast.”

Revelation 13:8 states, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

We are given much illumination and help in establishing the identity of, and the extent of those who pay homage to, the beast in this passage. In fact, it is extremely difficult to ignore the extraordinary influence of the beast outlined in the whole book of Revelation. The aforementioned verse tells us that his adherents include every single person “whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Therefore, the beast specifically and symbolically relates to some all-embracing Christ-rejecting structure that includes the sum total of the non-righteous – those outside of the book of life.

Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder [Gr. thaumazo, or admired and marveled], whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast.”

We cannot in anyway underestimate the power and sway of the beast. His allegiance is comprehensive. In fact, every single human being whose name is not written in the Lamb’s book of life from the foundation of the earth ends up submitting to him.

Regardless of what or who this beast is, the wicked in total give homage or adherence to it, and also receive his mark. Moreover, God’s true elect do not conform or bow down to it, or even receive his mark. Such a truth meticulously complements the oft-repeated biblical truth that there are only two types of people in this world – saved and lost, sheep and goats.

If this is an evil spirit, then it is a very powerful evil spirit. In fact, it seems to control every unsaved person. Those who do not possess the Holy Spirit are governed by this spirit; all that “were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.”



Your literalism doesn't add up. It contradicts the reality and the teaching of the said book. Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (or semaino) it by his angel unto his servant John.”

The order: God - Christ - Angel – (signified or symbolized) John

This Greek word semaino is found seven times in the New Testament and is interpreted as follows in the King James Version:

Signs (John 4:48)
Signify (Acts 25:27)
Signifying (John 12:33, 18:32, 21:19)
Signified (Acts 11:28; Revelation 1:1)



Exactly! Because Rev 20 does not teach what Premils teach they have to cobble Scripture together to force it to say what they have been taught. This is called butchering Scripture. This is called eisegesis.



The kingdom Premils promote does not exist in Rev 20 or anywhere else. It is fake news. The reality is, Scripture teaches:

• The kingdom of God has already spiritually arrived.
• Jesus defeated every enemy and removed every impediment to the eternal liberation of God's people.
• Jesus is currently ruling over the nations (including His enemies) at the right hand of majesty.
• The redeemed have now been empowered with authority to enforce Christ's great victory of 2000 years ago the great commission. They have been given authority over Satan and his minions. Being "in Christ," they currently rule in life and in death with Him.
• Satan's kingdom (the Gentile nations) has been invaded by the Gospel. The Gentiles have been enlightened for 2000 years. They are now without excuse.

Your quote: "According to who? The beast and his army embrace all who are not in the Lamb's book of life. That sure sounds all-inclusive to me." No it's not that big. The a/c will be in charge of a ten nation confederacy consisting of nations from the eastern part of the Roman empire ( a lot of the middle east including Israel), there are a lot more than ten nations in the world and for a while the church will still be here thus the reason to separate those whose names are and are not in the book of life. His headquarters will be in Jerusalem and the battle of Armageddon will consist of the a/c against the kings of the north (Russia/Europe), south (Islam) and east (China), they will get sick of his reign and try to put an end to it., but they are all the "armies". There will still be multiple millions of people not involved and they will be judged according to Matt. 25 to see if they will enter into the millennium. Have you read the OT? Every prophecy that has, "in that day", "the day", etc. is referencing the day that Messiah reigns on earth. There are a lot of them. Here are some realities the word "wonder" simply means admire and or devoted to, that doesn't mean they all receive the mark. It says "he causes all who want to buy and sell", there will still be a black market for many items. The "world" here is, imo, speaking of the world known to John, the middle east, parts of the far east, Africa and some of Europe and these will be those who eventually turn against him at Armageddon. Rev. 12 tells us that believing Israel will go into hiding for 3 1/2 yrs and they will consist of the 144,000 plus those whose eyes are opened (1/3 of Israel according to Zech. 13:8-9) when the a/c breaks the 2nd commandment in Rev. 13:14-15, which is what the AoD is referring to. Is there a spiritual kingdom? Yes, but that isn't what "any" of the prophecies regarding the future are talking about. All the prophecies regarding Christ's first advent were "literally" fulfilled! God says He changes not, therefore, there is no logical reason to not believe the same about His second advent.

 

[WPM]

YOu ask inane questions, which you know there is no answer to so you can go "gotcha"! But as for Thesselonians and being pulled before the trib (the wrath of God)

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

YOu demand evidence from others you could never even hope to list in quantity.

LOL. It is "gotcha" because you promote teaching that is not in God's Book. The reason why you have nothing is because there is nothing. You know what the rest of us know - there is nowhere in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord.

You do not seem to understand the difference between the wrath of God and the tribulation of Satan. You invent some imaginary 7 years trib that is not taught in Scripture and cannot be found anywhere in the sacred text.

 

[WPM]

No, your allegation is just a construct because it demolishes your entire theory that Jesus does not have an earthly kingdom.

I do not force a faulty private meaning- it is you that does. I accept the passage as written. You are the one who comes up with new definitions, new meanings and rewrites of God because He wrote in such a code that only initiate adepts could hope to "get it"

And teh biblical fact that Jesus establishes a kingdom on earth is so well established in Scripture, only the foolish reject it. Just because it is spelled out in detail in Chapter 20- boo-hoo for you. But it does show that those who were killed for not taking the mark, are resurrected and live and reign with christ for 1,000 years.

You know Jesus returning in Chapter 19, Matt. 24, and a whole bunch of OT verses, if you bothered to read the Bible

There you go again - sweeping statements with no biblical quotes. That is because Pretrib has nothing. Where are your OT millennial passages? Where even mentions a future thousand years?

John Metcalfe rightly says in relation to the Holy Spirit’s use of the phrase “a thousand” in the Old Testament, in a booklet ‘Premillennialism Exposed’, “One reads of a thousand hills, a thousand vines, a thousand Philistines, a thousand children of Bigvai, a thousand Ammonites, a thousand spears, a thousand camels, a thousand horses, a thousand chariots, a thousand judges, a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, but never of a thousand years reign, no, not from Genesis to Malachi.”

And continues, “One can discover a thousand shields for a thousand Israelites, a thousand cubits and a thousand footmen to traverse them, a thousand talents and a thousand oxen to carry them, a thousand silver pieces and a thousand Edomites to covet them, a thousand baths and a thousand men to bathe in them, but what no one can find, no, not one of a thousand, is a thousand years reign at the end of time with the second coming of Christ preceding this millennial invention.”

 

[shilohsfoal]

I stopped reading when you called the revelation of Jesus Christ an obscured book.
This book helped me to understand all the rest.

Maybe it's just not for you.

 

[WPM]

Your quote: "According to who? The beast and his army embrace all who are not in the Lamb's book of life. That sure sounds all-inclusive to me." No it's not that big. The a/c will be in charge of a ten nation confederacy consisting of nations from the eastern part of the Roman empire ( a lot of the middle east including Israel), there are a lot more than ten nations in the world and for a while the church will still be here thus the reason to separate those whose names are and are not in the book of life. His headquarters will be in Jerusalem and the battle of Armageddon will consist of the a/c against the kings of the north (Russia/Europe), south (Islam) and east (China), they will get sick of his reign and try to put an end to it., but they are all the "armies". There will still be multiple millions of people not involved and they will be judged according to Matt. 25 to see if they will enter into the millennium. Have you read the OT? Every prophecy that has, "in that day", "the day", etc. is referencing the day that Messiah reigns on earth. There are a lot of them. Here are some realities the word "wonder" simply means admire and or devoted to, that doesn't mean they all receive the mark. It says "he causes all who want to buy and sell", there will still be a black market for many items. The "world" here is, imo, speaking of the world known to John, the middle east, parts of the far east, Africa and some of Europe and these will be those who eventually turn against him at Armageddon. Rev. 12 tells us that believing Israel will go into hiding for 3 1/2 yrs and they will consist of the 144,000 plus those whose eyes are opened (1/3 of Israel according to Zech. 13:8-9) when the a/c breaks the 2nd commandment in Rev. 13:14-15, which is what the AoD is referring to. Is there a spiritual kingdom? Yes, but that isn't what "any" of the prophecies regarding the future are talking about. All the prophecies regarding Christ's first advent were "literally" fulfilled! God says He changes not, therefore, there is no logical reason to not believe the same about His second advent.

No. Where is that in Rev 19? It seems like you are cobbling Scripture together to support your claims. That is Premil in a nutshell. The beast's followers are all who are not redeemed. The Premil antichrist only holds influence over a select few.

 

[WPM]

I stopped reading when you called the revelation of Jesus Christ an obscured book.
This book helped me to understand all the rest.

Maybe it's just not for you.

So, why do you promote so much error about Revelation? You actually prove my points. Thanks! You reject biblical corroboration, and what results is Premil.

 

[shilohsfoal]

So, why do you promote so much error about Revelation? You actually prove my points. Thanks! You reject biblical corroboration, and what results is Premil.

I don't believe revelation is error.
Just because you believe revelation is error doesn't mean everyone does.Some of us believe revelation is the truth.

 

[WPM]

I don't believe revelation is error.
Just because you believe revelation is error doesn't mean everyone does.Some of us believe revelation is the truth.

I am talking about the repeated error you present. You prove what I was saying.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I am talking about the repeated error you present. You prove what I was saying.

I haven't repeated error.Ive repeated revelation.

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Trekson]

No. Where is that in Rev 19? It seems like you are cobbling Scripture together to support your claims. That is Premil in a nutshell. The beast's followers are all who are not redeemed. The Premil antichrist only holds influence over a select few.

Putting together the whole of prophecy to understand the future is the only way to rightly divide the word of truth and I'm not saying I understand it all because I don't but no one else does either. So "cobbling scripture together" is the right and proper thing to do. You're adding things that the scriptures don't say to fit a scenario that is much larger than what is actually being prophesied and, imo, isn't true but in yours it is.

 

[jeffweeder]

I stopped reading when you called the revelation of Jesus Christ an obscured book.

Revelation was not written to just anyone. It was written to ...,

1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety];

The difference between his bond servants and everyone else is the Spirit given to them for discernment.

He who has an ear and the Spirit hear.
It should come as no surprise that we Spiritualize the text to rightly divide what is being said.

 

[WPM]

I haven't repeated error.Ive repeated revelation.

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You force a non-corroborative meaning on this one text and present it as truth. Premil presents an opinion that contradicts numerous Scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

So "cobbling scripture together" is the right and proper thing to do. Your adding things that the scriptures don't say to fit a scenario that is much larger than what is actually being prophesied and, imo, isn't true but in yours it is.

I would say that about those claiming a Millennial Kingdom on this earth is seen in Revelation 20:1-6, cobbling together scripture is a big understatement!

 

[Truth7t7]

I haven't repeated error.Ive repeated revelation.

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

No Kingdom On Earth, Or Mortal Humas Are Seen, Yet You Teach They Are Seen, As Pinocchio's Nose Grows

 

[WPM]

No Kingdom On Earth, Or Mortal Humas Are Seen, Yet You Teach They Are Seen, As Pinocchio's Nose Grows

It will never happen.

 

[Truth7t7]

It will never happen.

A Fairy Tale, Aesops Fables!

 

[Trekson]

I would say that about those claiming a Millennial Kingdom on this earth is seen in Revelation 20:1-6, cobbling together scripture is a big understatement!

What can I say, the scope of prophecy is abundantly clear that Messiah will reign upon the earth for a 1000 yrs.

 

[Truth7t7]

What can I say, the scope of prophecy is abundantly clear that Messiah will reign upon the earth for a 1000 yrs.

In your fairy tale dreams, a "Literal" Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years on this earth is found no place in scripture, its a fabricated fairy tale of man

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

What can I say, the scope of prophecy is abundantly clear that Messiah will reign upon the earth for a 1000 yrs.

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.