26 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine

[Davidpt]

And finally, Zechariah 14, the chapter that Premillennialists project, without any scriptural warrant, to a distant future notional millennial period, continues, in keeping with the theme of the previous chapters, saying, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one” (Zechariah 14:6-9).

Here is a remarkable symbolic prophetic account of the nature and purpose of the earthly Messianic ministry of the Lord at His first coming.

Until the 7th trumpet sounds first, Zechariah 14:9 can not possibly already be fulfilled in the meantime.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Amils insist they use Scripture to interpret Scripture when they are doing no such thing in a lot of cases.

As if while 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is true, Zechariah 14:9 is true at the same time. As if the one meant in 2 Thesalonians 2:4 and the one meant in Zechariah 14:9 combined equals this---And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one

Simple math says 1 + 1 does not equal 1, it equals 2. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Zechariah 14:9 adds up to 2 lords not one lord. The problem goes away entirely when we don't have Zechariah 14:9 being true until 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is no longer true. These contradictions Amils cause between Scriptures are not subtle, hardly noticeable. They are plain as day obvious. But they are unwilling to see it because of their doctrinal bias'.

 

[WPM]

Until the 7th trumpet sounds first, Zechariah 14:9 can not possibly already be fulfilled in the meantime.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Amils insist they use Scripture to interpret Scripture when they are doing no such thing in a lot of cases.

As if while 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is true, Zechariah 14:9 is true at the same time. As if the one meant in 2 Thesalonians 2:4 and the one meant in Zechariah 14:9 combined equals this---And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one

Simple math says 1 + 1 does not equal 1, it equals 2. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Zechariah 14:9 adds up to 2 lords not one lord. The problem goes away entirely when we don't have Zechariah 14:9 being true until 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is no longer true. These contradictions Amils cause between Scriptures are not subtle, hardly noticable. They are plain as day obvious.

First of all, Zechariah 14 makes absolutely no allusion to a future 1,000 years after the second coming, or does Zechariah 14 compare with any of the detail outlined in Revelation 20 (start, middle or finish). The detail occurring at the end of Revelation 20 only compares with the many passages relating to Christ’s one final future all-consummating Second Advent – there we see the destruction of every enemy of Christ and righteousness.

A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations.

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes, this disallows the placing of this after the second coming. There will be no mortals or no sinners to populate the new earth, what is more, they are prohibited from inheriting it (Matthew 25:34 &25:46, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Corinthians 15:50).

Thirdly, the keeping of the Judaic sacrificial system has been eternally abolished (see Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:14, 16, 20-22 ). Many of the place names in Jerusalem don't exist anymore. Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever. We now "worship" God "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:21).

Fourthly, while the prophet Zechariah uses Old Testament vernacular, he seems to be looking forward to a brighter and better day. He is anticipating the coming Messiah, a new order and a final sacrifice for sin. He is looking to a day where the nations will experience the favor of God. It is difficult to decipher because it is written in a type of apocalyptic form, which involves typical contains a mixture of literal and cryptic language. and must be understood in the symbolic way in which it is written.

 

[Davidpt]

First of all, Zechariah 14 makes absolutely no allusion to a future 1,000 years after the second coming, or does Zechariah 14 compare with any of the detail outlined in Revelation 20 (start, middle or finish). The detail occurring at the end of Revelation 20 only compares with the many passages relating to Christ’s one final future all-consummating Second Advent – there we see the destruction of every enemy of Christ and righteousness.

A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations.

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes, this disallows the placing of this after the second coming. There will be no mortals or no sinners to populate the new earth, what is more, they are prohibited from inheriting it (Matthew 25:34 &25:46, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Corinthians 15:50).

Thirdly, the keeping of the Judaic sacrificial system has been eternally abolished (see Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:14, 16, 20-22 ). Many of the place names in Jerusalem don't exist anymore. Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever. We now "worship" God "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:21).

Fourthly, while the prophet Zechariah uses Old Testament vernacular, he seems to be looking forward to a brighter and better day. He is anticipating the coming Messiah, a new order and a final sacrifice for sin. He is looking to a day where the nations will experience the favor of God. It is difficult to decipher because it is written in a type of apocalyptic form, which involves typical contains a mixture of literal and cryptic language. and must be understood in the symbolic way in which it is written.

The thousand years aside. Let's assume you are correct, Zechariah 14 does not involve a future millennium. How does that help you out with Zechariah 14:9? How does that make verse 9 already true in this age?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Explain how this equals the following.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


That would be like someone arguing that Zechariah 14:11 was already fulfilled, thus already true, before 70 AD even arrived first. As if 70 AD does not contradict the following if it was already true prior to 70 AD---And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. As if 70 AD equaled this at the time--no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited

Why can't Amils at least use some common sense before concluding how something should be interpreted? I'm not meaning complicated things, such as Premil vs Amil. I'm meaning simple things, such as Zechariah 14:9 in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Simple things, such as Zechariah 14:11 in light of 70 AD.

 

[WPM]

The thousand years aside. Let's assume you are correct, Zechariah 14 does not involve a future millennium. How does that help you out with Zechariah 14:9? How does that make verse 9 already true in this age?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Explain how this equals the following.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


That would be like someone arguing that Zechariah 14:11 was already fulfilled, thus already true, before 70 AD even arrived first. As if 70 AD does not contradict the following if it was already true prior to 70 AD---And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. As if 70 AD equaled this at the time--no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited

Why can't Amils at least use some common sense before concluding how something should be interpreted? I'm not meaning complicated things, such as Premil vs Amil. I'm meaning simple things, such as Zechariah 14:9 in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Simple things, such as Zechariah 14:11 in light of 70 AD.

Zechariah 14:9: “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”

This is describing the global impact and influence of the great commission. The Lord is not just king over physical Israel, as under the old covenant, He is king overall the earth today.

The Hebrew word translated “over” here is ‛al, meaning: above, over (of elevation or pre-eminence). There is no suggestion here of an earthly reign of Christ after the second coming as Premillennialists try to argue.

So, what is this talking about? It is talking about the current glorious majestic heavenly reign of Christ at the right hand of majesty after His ascension. There He victoriously sovereignly rules over the nations upon the throne of God. The kingdom of God is not limited to the ancient borders of ethnic Israel any more, as it largely was in the Old Testament. It is seen throughout the whole world. Jesus is “indeed king over all the earth” not just Israel.

• Do you believe that Jesus currently possesses “All power [Gr. exousia or authority] … in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
• Do you believe that “All things that the Father hath are” Christ’s (John 16:15)?
• Do you believe that the Father has indeed given Jesus “power over all flesh” (John 17:2)?
• Do you believe that “All things are delivered” unto Jesus of His “Father” (Matthew 11:27 and that He has “given all things into his (Christ’s) hand” (John 3:35 and John 13:3)?
• Do you believe that the Father has given Jesus “authority to execute judgment … because he is the Son of man” (John 5:26-27)?
• Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
• Do you believe that “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him” (1 Peter 3:22 says)?
• Do you believe that Christ is indeed "the archon (or ruler) of the kings of the earth" (Revelation 1:5)?
• When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
• 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
• Do you believe that Christ has become "the ruler of God’s creation" (Revelation 3:14)?
• Do you believe that Jesus has already "spoiled principalities and powers ... made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:15)?
• Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The thousand years aside. Let's assume you are correct, Zechariah 14 does not involve a future millennium. How does that help you out with Zechariah 14:9? How does that make verse 9 already true in this age?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Explain how this equals the following.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


That would be like someone arguing that Zechariah 14:11 was already fulfilled, thus already true, before 70 AD even arrived first. As if 70 AD does not contradict the following if it was already true prior to 70 AD---And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. As if 70 AD equaled this at the time--no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited

Why can't Amils at least use some common sense before concluding how something should be interpreted? I'm not meaning complicated things, such as Premil vs Amil. I'm meaning simple things, such as Zechariah 14:9 in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Simple things, such as Zechariah 14:11 in light of 70 AD.

Why do you have to say stupid things like "Why can't Amils use at least use some common sense before concluding how something should be interpreted?". Your "common sense" is what Paul calls "man's wisdom", which "the natural man" relies on and causes him to see God's word and the things of the Spirit of God as "foolishness".

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How are you using common sense to conclude that Zechariah 14 says that mortal unbelievers will survive the return of Christ when ther are several other passages which teach otherwise?

As for Zechariah 14:9, why are you bringing 2 Thessalonians 2:4 into the discussion? Where is the common sense in that?

Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

If someone claims to be God, that somehow means there is not one Lord? That's ridiculuous. Regardless of how many claim to be God or think they are God, there is still only one Lord who is king over all the earth and that is Jesus.

It says "the Lord shall be king over all the earth". Have you never read this verse...

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus has "all power...in earth". If that doesn't mean He is "king over all the earth", then I don't know what does. If you want to talk about common sense, tell me how it's common sense to conclude that Jesus is not king over all the earth right now despite having all power in earth? And, no matter what anyone claims, there is only one Lord and it is Jesus and there is no other name by which a person can be saved (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Are you going to try to tell me that Jesus is not king over all the earth despite being set at the Father's right hand "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with "all things under his feet"? If so, where is the common sense in that?

 

[WPM]

Why do you have to say stupid things like "Why can't Amils use at least use some common sense before concluding how something should be interpreted?". Your "common sense" is what Paul calls "man's wisdom", which "the natural man" relies on and causes him to see God's word and the things of the Spirit of God as "foolishness".

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How are you using common sense to conclude that Zechariah 14 says that mortal unbelievers will survive the return of Christ when ther are several other passages which teach otherwise?

As for Zechariah 14:9, why are you bringing 2 Thessalonians 2:4 into the discussion? Where is the common sense in that?

Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

If someone claims to be God, that somehow means there is not one Lord? That's ridiculuous. Regardless of how many claim to be God or think they are God, there is still only one Lord who is king over all the earth and that is Jesus.

It says "the Lord shall be king over all the earth". Have you never read this verse...

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus has "all power...in earth". If that doesn't mean He is "king over all the earth", then I don't know what does. If you want to talk about common sense, tell me how it's common sense to conclude that Jesus is not king over all the earth right now despite having all power in earth? And, no matter what anyone claims, there is only one Lord and it is Jesus and there is no other name by which a person can be saved (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Are you going to try to tell me that Jesus is not king over all the earth despite being set at the Father's right hand "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with "all things under his feet"? If so, where is the common sense in that?

He knows it is nonsense. That is why he doesn't stay around. That is why he always runs with his tail between his legs.

 

[WPM]

Why do you have to say stupid things like "Why can't Amils use at least use some common sense before concluding how something should be interpreted?". Your "common sense" is what Paul calls "man's wisdom", which "the natural man" relies on and causes him to see God's word and the things of the Spirit of God as "foolishness".

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How are you using common sense to conclude that Zechariah 14 says that mortal unbelievers will survive the return of Christ when ther are several other passages which teach otherwise?

As for Zechariah 14:9, why are you bringing 2 Thessalonians 2:4 into the discussion? Where is the common sense in that?

Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

If someone claims to be God, that somehow means there is not one Lord? That's ridiculuous. Regardless of how many claim to be God or think they are God, there is still only one Lord who is king over all the earth and that is Jesus.

It says "the Lord shall be king over all the earth". Have you never read this verse...

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus has "all power...in earth". If that doesn't mean He is "king over all the earth", then I don't know what does. If you want to talk about common sense, tell me how it's common sense to conclude that Jesus is not king over all the earth right now despite having all power in earth? And, no matter what anyone claims, there is only one Lord and it is Jesus and there is no other name by which a person can be saved (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Are you going to try to tell me that Jesus is not king over all the earth despite being set at the Father's right hand "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with "all things under his feet"? If so, where is the common sense in that?

I wonder are they aware of the impact of all their avoidance has upon the reader?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wonder are they aware of the impact of all their avoidance has upon the reader?

I don't know. I'm not sure why I ever bother responding to him since he always just disappears after making his drive by posts and then never responds to us after we respond to his posts. He thinks we should address his points, but then he doesn't ever address ours. He will never address your post #44 or my post #45.

 

[Davidpt]

Zechariah 14:9: “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”

This is describing the global impact and influence of the great commission. The Lord is not just king over physical Israel, as under the old covenant, He is king overall the earth today.

The Hebrew word translated “over” here is ‛al, meaning: above, over (of elevation or pre-eminence). There is no suggestion here of an earthly reign of Christ after the second coming as Premillennialists try to argue.

So, what is this talking about? It is talking about the current glorious majestic heavenly reign of Christ at the right hand of majesty after His ascension. There He victoriously sovereignly rules over the nations upon the throne of God. The kingdom of God is not limited to the ancient borders of ethnic Israel any more, as it largely was in the Old Testament. It is seen throughout the whole world. Jesus is “indeed king over all the earth” not just Israel.

• Do you believe that Jesus currently possesses “All power [Gr. exousia or authority] … in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
• Do you believe that “All things that the Father hath are” Christ’s (John 16:15)?
• Do you believe that the Father has indeed given Jesus “power over all flesh” (John 17:2)?
• Do you believe that “All things are delivered” unto Jesus of His “Father” (Matthew 11:27 and that He has “given all things into his (Christ’s) hand” (John 3:35 and John 13:3)?
• Do you believe that the Father has given Jesus “authority to execute judgment … because he is the Son of man” (John 5:26-27)?
• Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
• Do you believe that “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him” (1 Peter 3:22 says)?
• Do you believe that Christ is indeed "the archon (or ruler) of the kings of the earth" (Revelation 1:5)?
• When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
• 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
• Do you believe that Christ has become "the ruler of God’s creation" (Revelation 3:14)?
• Do you believe that Jesus has already "spoiled principalities and powers ... made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:15)?
• Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?

In my Strong's I'm not finding a Hebrew word listed for 'over' in Zechariah 14:9. But it doesn't really matter since verse 9 can't get fulfilled until verse 5 is fulfilled first.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Compare this---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee--with this in the NT, then convingingly prove they are not involving the same event-- Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(Jude 1:14)

Jude 1:14 leads to this.

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Zechariah 14:5 leads to this.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Now compare verse 12 with this in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Instead of using relevant Scripture in the NT to interpret some or most of Zechariah 14, I can't figure out what Amils are doing in regards to interpreting Zechariah 14? Some Amils, including you, unless you have changed your view recently, have some of this chapter involving 70 AD of all things, which is absurd. Some Amils have verse 4 involving a time Christ physically walked the earth prior to His death and resurrection, which is equally absurd. That interpretation does not connect to anything said prior to verse 4 nor after. It is is nonsensical to interpret verse 4 in isolation like that.

 

[WPM]

In my Strong's I'm not finding a Hebrew word listed for 'over' in Zechariah 14:9. But it doesn't really matter since verse 9 can't get fulfilled until verse 5 is fulfilled first.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Compare this---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee--with this in the NT, then convingingly prove they are not involving the same event-- Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(Jude 1:14)

Jude 1:14 leads to this.

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Zechariah 14:5 leads to this.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Now compare verse 12 with this in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Instead of using relevant Scripture in the NT to interpret some or most of Zechariah 14, I can't figure out what Amils are doing in regards to interpreting Zechariah 14? Some Amils, including you, unless you have changed your view recently, have some of this chapter involving 70 AD of all things, which is absurd. Some Amils have verse 4 involving a time Christ physically walked the earth prior to His death and resurrection, which is equally absurd. That interpretation does not connect to anything said prior to verse 4 nor after. It is is nonsensical to interpret verse 4 in isolation like that.

Once again, you avoided every one of the questions. You have to. Have another look at the Hebrew. It is there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my Strong's I'm not finding a Hebrew word listed for 'over' in Zechariah 14:9. But it doesn't really matter since verse 9 can't get fulfilled until verse 5 is fulfilled first.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Compare this---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee--with this in the NT, then convingingly prove they are not involving the same event-- Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(Jude 1:14)

Jude 1:14 leads to this.

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Zechariah 14:5 leads to this.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Now compare verse 12 with this in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Instead of using relevant Scripture in the NT to interpret some or most of Zechariah 14, I can't figure out what Amils are doing in regards to interpreting Zechariah 14? Some Amils, including you, unless you have changed your view recently, have some of this chapter involving 70 AD of all things, which is absurd. Some Amils have verse 4 involving a time Christ physically walked the earth prior to His death and resurrection, which is equally absurd. That interpretation does not connect to anything said prior to verse 4 nor after. It is is nonsensical to interpret verse 4 in isolation like that.

Zechariah 14 is an undeniably difficult passage to interpret. You are not able to explain several things that are written about in the passage, so what do you think you're proving here? Do you not have any clear, straightforward scripture at all to support your doctrine? If so, where is it?

Why are you not addressing the questions asked and points made in posts 44 and 45? If you think Zechariah 14 supports Premil, then you should have no trouble addressing those posts, but you are clearly avoiding them like the plague instead, as you always do when we refute your arguments.

 

[WPM]

Until the 7th trumpet sounds first, Zechariah 14:9 can not possibly already be fulfilled in the meantime.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Amils insist they use Scripture to interpret Scripture when they are doing no such thing in a lot of cases.

As if while 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is true, Zechariah 14:9 is true at the same time. As if the one meant in 2 Thesalonians 2:4 and the one meant in Zechariah 14:9 combined equals this---And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one

Simple math says 1 + 1 does not equal 1, it equals 2. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Zechariah 14:9 adds up to 2 lords not one lord. The problem goes away entirely when we don't have Zechariah 14:9 being true until 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is no longer true. These contradictions Amils cause between Scriptures are not subtle, hardly noticeable. They are plain as day obvious. But they are unwilling to see it because of their doctrinal bias'.

• Do you believe that Jesus currently possesses “All power [Gr. exousia or authority] … in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
• Do you believe that “All things that the Father hath are” Christ’s (John 16:15)?
• Do you believe that the Father has indeed given Jesus “power over all flesh” (John 17:2)?
• Do you believe that “All things are delivered” unto Jesus of His “Father” (Matthew 11:27 and that He has “given all things into his (Christ’s) hand” (John 3:35 and John 13:3)?
• Do you believe that the Father has given Jesus “authority to execute judgment … because he is the Son of man” (John 5:26-27)?
• Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
• Do you believe that “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him” (1 Peter 3:22 says)?
• Do you believe that Christ is indeed "the archon (or ruler) of the kings of the earth" (Revelation 1:5)?
• When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
• 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
• Do you believe that Christ has become "the ruler of God’s creation" (Revelation 3:14)?
• Do you believe that Jesus has already "spoiled principalities and powers ... made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:15)?
• Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let the record show that, once again, when his view gets challenged, @Davidpt runs away from the challenge. He doesn't even attempt to address the weaknesses in his view or to answer questions about his understanding of Zechariah 14. He has no clear scripture at all to support his doctrine, so he has to resort to having some of the most difficult to interpret passages in all of scripture as the only foundation for his doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

• Do you believe that Jesus currently possesses “All power [Gr. exousia or authority] … in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
• Do you believe that “All things that the Father hath are” Christ’s (John 16:15)?
• Do you believe that the Father has indeed given Jesus “power over all flesh” (John 17:2)?
• Do you believe that “All things are delivered” unto Jesus of His “Father” (Matthew 11:27 and that He has “given all things into his (Christ’s) hand” (John 3:35 and John 13:3)?
• Do you believe that the Father has given Jesus “authority to execute judgment … because he is the Son of man” (John 5:26-27)?
• Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
• Do you believe that “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him” (1 Peter 3:22 says)?
• Do you believe that Christ is indeed "the archon (or ruler) of the kings of the earth" (Revelation 1:5)?
• When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
• 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
• Do you believe that Christ has become "the ruler of God’s creation" (Revelation 3:14)?
• Do you believe that Jesus has already "spoiled principalities and powers ... made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:15)?
• Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?

Isn't it interesting how Premils never even attempt to answer any of these questions. They deny or ignore many clear scriptures including the ones you have referenced here.

 

[WPM]

Isn't it interesting how Premils never even attempt to answer any of these questions. They deny or ignore many clear scriptures including the ones you have referenced here.

That is because we have Premil cornered. After years of debate it is clear that Premil has nothing. Pick any angle and it crumbles. They know that, that is why they avoid. That is why they resort to insults.

It gives us the playing field.

 

[WPM]

In my Strong's I'm not finding a Hebrew word listed for 'over' in Zechariah 14:9. But it doesn't really matter since verse 9 can't get fulfilled until verse 5 is fulfilled first.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Compare this---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee--with this in the NT, then convingingly prove they are not involving the same event-- Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(Jude 1:14)

Jude 1:14 leads to this.

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Zechariah 14:5 leads to this.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Now compare verse 12 with this in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Instead of using relevant Scripture in the NT to interpret some or most of Zechariah 14, I can't figure out what Amils are doing in regards to interpreting Zechariah 14? Some Amils, including you, unless you have changed your view recently, have some of this chapter involving 70 AD of all things, which is absurd. Some Amils have verse 4 involving a time Christ physically walked the earth prior to His death and resurrection, which is equally absurd. That interpretation does not connect to anything said prior to verse 4 nor after. It is is nonsensical to interpret verse 4 in isolation like that.

Did you find the word?

 

[WPM]

Why should I want to continue your 'advertising' of a false doctrine by responding to just any little point you 'try'... to bring up as evidence against Premil? To know the Truth all one need do is simply read their Bible, and not just the Revelation 20 Chapter either. Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 that begins at His future coming is pointed to in many other Bible Scriptures besides Rev.20, just not using that specific "thousand years" term.


One of the things NOT written in God's Word, which deceived followers of Amill believe, is the destruction of all wicked on the day of Christ's future return on the "day of the Lord". That includes 'their wrong belief' that day of Christ's coming also is the day of God's Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20, which assigns the wicked, hell, and death all into the "lake of fire". That is the ONLY way that the time of God's new heavens and a new earth time can manifest, with all the wicked, and hell, and even the concept death, destroyed.

The following is just one Bible Scripture, a major one, that reveals not all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future coming...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

That above Bible Scripture is for AFTER... Christ has returned to the Mount of Olives with all His saints, on the last day of this world, called the "day of the Lord". That's how that Zechariah 14 Chapter starts out. The Zechariah 14:8 verse even reveals in that time right after Christ's return, God's River of the Waters of Life will be there manifested on earth, even while those UNSAVED of the nations that came against Jerusalem will still be there!

Zech 14:7-9
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

Brethren, do you recall what Lord Jesus said in His Olivet discourse that no man knows the day or hour of His future coming, but The Father only? That's what that above Zechariah 14:7 is referring to.

That Zechariah 14:8 verse is pointing to God's River of Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47. Per Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22, the Tree of Life is manifested along with that River of the Waters of Life. So that proves beyond all... doubt that these Zechariah 14 events are for immediately AFTER Christ's future return after having gathered His Church on the last day of this world. Even Revelation 22:14-15 reveals the wicked still existing outside the gates of the "beloved city" at that time.

That Zechariah 14 Scripture is NOT... God's new heavens and a new earth time, simply because God's Great White Throne Judgment that determines who will perish in the "lake of fire" must occur first so that ONLY the SAVED will exist in God's Eternity.

So Brethren in Christ, don't fall for the OP's crying excuses like, "I used to believe Premil, but then I saw the light" type of emotional ploy. That's all it is, just a PLOY to deceive you using emotional sensationalism. Stick to what God's Word as written reveals.

And if you want yet another proof the wicked will still be here after Christ's future coming, look at the Revelation 3:9 verse where Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make His greatest enemies of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship Him at the feet of His elect. That will never happen during this present world time. That is yet another Biblical pointer to Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the unsaved.

Zechariah 14:18 tells us "there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles." Is this the unparalleled harmonious submissive wholesale obedience portrayed by Premils of their supposed future millennium?