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Yes, I am serious. Faith is never called a "work" in the NT, but is always contrasted with works. τοῦ ἔργου τῆς πίστεως, is similiar to saying, "Faith's work." It is not saying faith = work, but work that belongs to someone's faith. In the same way,τοῦ κόπου τῆς ἀγάπης, is similar to saying, "love's labor." It is not saying labor = love, but labor that belongs to, or is the result of someone's love.Are you serious that it is out of the Thessalonians faith, love and hope that these acts and characteristics sprung? How did you come by to understand that the content is very clear that faith itself is not a work in 1 Th 1:3? The Bible declares in Eph 4:5 that there is only one faith, and in Eph 2:8 declares, for by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. God is the only One Who defines His own terms as He is the Author of the Bible. So how can you reconcile these passages with that of 1 Th 1:3 where you have declared faith is not a work?
What is the meaning of “this,” which is given of God and is not from yourselves? Is it “faith” that is the gift of God? Since “faith” is a word of feminine gender, and “this” and “it” are neuter gender, normal grammar disallows referring back to “faith.” For the same reason “this” cannot refer back to the feminine word “grace.” It is more likely that the neuter words refer to the entire situation of salvation: it is God’s doing, not our own.19 Even our own responses, such as repenting and believing in Jesus, would not be possible unless God had invited us to do so (cf. Acts 11:18).
Kenneth L. Boles, Galatians & Ephesians, The College Press NIV Commentary (Joplin, MO: College Press, 1993), Eph 2:8.
We are justified by our faith in Christ's work. Abraham's righteousness (not his faith) was imputed. He "believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness." It was not his belief that was credited to him, but his righteousness because of his belief. Gal. 2:16 is not talking about Jesus' faith by which we are justified. Although the Greek could permit this, the context is clear that it is our faith in Jesus that justifies us.It is not as simple as you think. The Bible is a very complex book. Indeed, we are justified by faith but whose faith, Jesus' faith (Ga 2:16) or man's faith? Even Abraham's faith was imputed/accounted (given) to him for righteousness.
“yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.” (Galatians 2:16, ESV)
No we do not mean the same thing. I know that faith and belief are the same Greek word pistis. ATP is arguing that once a person believes, they cannot cease to believe. He says their faith is the result of God's choosing the man rather than the man choosing to believe. I am arguing that once a person believes they can cease to believe and that faith is our response to the Gospel that is a free-will choice. Our faith is not the result of God's predetermined choice before the foundation of the the world to save a few and condemn eternally the rest.I'm afraid you and ATP mean the same thing but go by different routes. One insists that in order to be saved all that is needed is to believe while the other insists on faith, yet unbeknown to both, one is a verb and the other a noun of the same word.
I find this statement to be biblically baseless. Again, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that trust/faith in God is somehow "contributing" or working toward one's own salvation. Trust is a necessary response to Christ's saving work. If not, I could make the statement:IS MANKIND GOING TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS DID ALL THE WORK TO SAVE HIM OR WILL MAN INSIST THAT HE CAN SOMEHOW CONTRIBUTE TO HIS SALVATION BY BELIEVING OR HAVING FAITH IN JESUS?
Notice, a person is condemned because "he has not believed" not because "God did not grant faith." Belief originates with the individual in response to the Gospel, just as you can choose to believe or disbelieve what I am writing, so also we have the freedom to choose to believe or not to believe what God has spoken.“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” (John 3:17–18, ESV)
Obviously we agree on far more than we disagree. Good post.Wormwood said:Yes, I am serious. Faith is never called a "work" in the NT, but is always contrasted with works. τοῦ ἔργου τῆς πίστεως, is similiar to saying, "Faith's work." It is not saying faith = work, but work that belongs to someone's faith. In the same way,τοῦ κόπου τῆς ἀγάπης, is similar to saying, "love's labor." It is not saying labor = love, but labor that belongs to, or is the result of someone's love.
I dont know what Eph. 4:5 has to do with this discussion. Yes, there is one Christian faith, one Lord, one Savior, etc. How does that equate our one faith to faith = works? I do not know where you are going with this reference. Can you explain?
The Greek in Eph. 2:8 makes it clear that "faith" is not what "that not of yourselves" is referring to salvation as a whole, not to grace or faith. This commentator puts it concisely:
We are justified by our faith in Christ's work. Abraham's righteousness (not his faith) was imputed. He "believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness." It was not his belief that was credited to him, but his righteousness because of his belief. Gal. 2:16 is not talking about Jesus' faith by which we are justified. Although the Greek could permit this, the context is clear that it is our faith in Jesus that justifies us.
No we do not mean the same thing. I know that faith and belief are the same Greek word pistis. ATP is arguing that once a person believes, they cannot cease to believe. He says their faith is the result of God's choosing the man rather than the man choosing to believe. I am arguing that once a person believes they can cease to believe and that faith is our response to the Gospel that is a free-will choice. Our faith is not the result of God's predetermined choice before the foundation of the the world to save a few and condemn eternally the rest.
I find this statement to be biblically baseless. Again, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that trust/faith in God is somehow "contributing" or working toward one's own salvation. Trust is a necessary response to Christ's saving work. If not, I could make the statement:
IS MANKIND GOING TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS DID A WORK THAT ONLY SAVES A PREDETERMINED FEW WHILE ALSO PREDETERMINING THE DESTRUCTION OF BILLIONS FOR ALL ETERNITY BY NOT GIVING THEM FAITH?
Faith is our response to God, not God's initiative toward us. God expects us to believe and judges people when they do not. Read again this very basic verse of the Bible:
Notice, a person is condemned because "he has not believed" not because "God did not grant faith." Belief originates with the individual in response to the Gospel, just as you can choose to believe or disbelieve what I am writing, so also we have the freedom to choose to believe or not to believe what God has spoken.
Fortunately, it doesn't work that way. Being sealed in the Holy Spirit isn't based on your teenage issues or your every day feelings about your favorite boy band that recently broke up. It's about what Jesus did on the cross for you once and for all. Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins once and for all? Let's grow up bro.Wormwood said:just as you can choose to believe or disbelieve what I am writing, so also we have the freedom to choose to believe or not to believe what God has spoken.
The problem, ATP, as I see it, is that you have allowed your Calvinism to color all these verses in a particular light. You read all these verses and see OSAS and I do not see these things at all. I believe all the verses you posted. I just believe they do not mean what you are implying (and often the context teaches the opposite). I dont think our faith is a mere feeling that comes and goes. It is a very solid, and steady belief that shapes daily life. Belief that God exists is not something that comes and goes like my favorite song. We are called to be disciples and a disciple is not a flakey, hokey pokey kind of Christian. So, if that is your concern about my position on the necessity of faith, then it is unfounded.Fortunately, it doesn't work that way. Being sealed in the Holy Spirit isn't based on your teenage issues or your every day feelings about your favorite boy band that recently broke up. It's about what Jesus did on the cross for you once and for all. Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins once and for all? Let's grow up bro.
Interesting verse. Now how can someone "continue in his kindness" or not? It sure makes it sound like we have a choice and not that once we have accepted the kindness of God in Christ through belief that we can still be "cut off." Are you suggesting this being "cut off" is about heavenly reward as well? Paul makes it very clear here that a person "stands fast through faith" and if they do not continue in the faith, they should "fear."“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” (Romans 11:22–23, ESV)
These verses teach the antithesis of divine determinism. We stand because of our faith, and if we become arrogant and think we cannot be broken off because we are the "chosen" then we are in grave danger. Our being "chosen" is directly related to our faith, not some divine pre-selection where God has determined we are better than the rest who will not receive grace because they are not the "elect" like we are. This attitude reflects the attitude of the Jews who faltered in their belief because they failed to see the necessity of faith and began trusting in their own standing as "chosen" rather than the faith that originally made them who they were.“Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.” (Romans 11:19–21, ESV)
No, that's wrong. We no longer have the spirit of fear Rom 8:15 ESV, 2 Tim 1:7 ESV, Heb 2:14-15 ESV, 1 John 4:18 ESV.Wormwood said:and if they do not continue in the faith, they should "fear."
I did respond. You say we should fear hell, and scripture disagrees with you Rom 8:38-39, Rev 20:14. Why fear hell if God never leaves you. I don't understand.Wormwood said:ATP,
I basically quoted a verse warns the Romans (and us) that if they do not continue in the faith, they should "fear." You said, "No, that's wrong." How can I be wrong when I simply quoted the verse? I would appreciate it if you actually dealt with the verses rather than quoting your own series of verses to deflect the one I posted. If you want me to give you my thoughts on any given verse that you think proves your points, then I would be happy to. However, I would appreciate it if you would respond to what I post rather than just try to deflect it with a barrage of "No, that's wrong" comments with a smattering of verses that supposedly oppose these verses I shared (are you suggesting the Scriptures contradict one another?!). If you want a dialogue, you respond to my thoughts and then I will respond to yours. Getting bunkered down in your theological stance and throwing scriptures like grenades is not an effective way to learn from one another and have a meaningful dialogue.
Taking them out of context is a start.Wormwood said:You said, "No, that's wrong." How can I be wrong when I simply quoted the verse?
They were cut off because of unbelief. They never had saving faith bro.Wormwood said:Care to explain how I took them out of context? Paul says that these Roman believers should "fear" and that they would be "cut off" if they do not "continue" in faith. How am I misusing that verse?
God's kindness is currently being expressed to them because of they stand by faith but God is "severe" toward those who have "fallen." Paul warns them to "continue in his kindness" so that they will not be "cut off." This has nothing to do with who has "saving faith" (such a term isnt even used). It is about continuing in the kindness they currently know, and the very real possibility of being cut off from that kindness.“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Romans 11:22, ESV)
That's exactly what he's saying. A branch remains on the tree because of a healthy root Wormwood. Jesus Christ is the root and salvation.Wormwood said:So, is he warning them that they currently are not saved and their faith isnt real? No, that makes no sense either.
I know this is a trillion miles over your head, but maybe it will help someone ...ATP said:Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession
—to the praise of his glory.