A Blood-Soaked Path Through History

[brakelite]

Wow, thats a nice tirade....
So you think the Church and state should never be one?

Give me one instance where such a union has been beneficial to religious freedom and liberty of conscience.

 

[brakelite]

You must have demanded proof at least half a dozen times that the RCC is Roman. Now that I have furnished said proof, from your own historian and one of the most exalted saints, you duly ignore it and take the conversation in another direction. Why am I not surprised.


Interesting. An heir is a child of a royal parent inheriting his parent's throne. Regardless of whether the child assassinated his own parent, he is still the child...and still the heir...as the RCC is the child of pagan Rome...and was the heir, as you pointed out above, to his parents throne. This transaction and transition of power and authority was aptly described and prophesies of in Revelation 13 in this manner...
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Who was this dragon power that gave the beast his power, seat, and authority? In Revelation12:4...and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born... we are given a vision of the true church, before which the dragon waited that he might kill the Messiah. I know the RCC teach this woman to be Mary, but for the sake of this lesson it doesn't matter. It is the dragon that concerns us. The dragon is Satan...but he used a pagan state power in an attempt to murder Jesus...in this case the Roman appointed puppet/king Herod while the child was still in Bethlehem. Thus Rome was the human agent of the dragon. Yet we are told this dragon gave the beast his power, seat and authority. When did pagan Rome aka the dragon, give anyone his throne, power, and great authority? When the western empire was vacated by Constantine and the Catholic religion made the state religion. This was enforced by law through JustinianII and others throughout the east and west, to the great pain and suffering of those who chose not to recognise the councils and decrees of man that sought despotic power over the consciences of men. Such as the so-called Arians (proof they were in fact heretics is hard to come by when demands for independent evidence is made) and the Monophysites. Later of course this practice continued in the west in particular through such great "saints" as Clovis and Charlamagne. And of course Hitler. View attachment 2507


The RCC is not the child of God.

Any Catholic apologist have any reasoned response to the above please?

 

[Philip James]

Give me one instance where such a union has been beneficial to religious freedom and liberty of conscience.

It was a yes or no question. What do you mean by religious freedom and liberty of concience?
What does it mean to 'rule with a rod of iron' ?

 

[brakelite]

It was a yes or no question. What do you mean by religious freedom and liberty of concience?
What does it mean to 'rule with a rod of iron' ?

Religious liberty or freedom of conscience is the inherent right of every man, woman, and child to choose to live according to the dictates of the individual conscience, and not according to the consciences or religious beliefs of others. Church/state unions have only one purpose. to legislate and rule according to the moral dictates of whatever majority religion has the reigns. In Revelation the church riding the beast is a whore...an apostate church.
As for the rod of iron, who is the one wielding the rod?

 

[Philip James]

Religious liberty or freedom of conscience is the inherent right of every man, woman, and child to choose to live according to the dictates of the individual conscience, and not according to the consciences or religious beliefs of others.

So if i want ti sacrifice children to Molech thats cool right?

As for the rod of iron, who is the one wielding the rod?

You are

 

[brakelite]

So if i want ti sacrifice children to Molech thats cool right?

No, not cool. Because our personal beliefs must not impinge upon the rights of others, which is why religious persecution is so egregious. My personal convictions/beliefs re worship are just that...personal...and they must never be used to hold sway over anothers' personal convictions, particularly the right to life.

 

[Philip James]

No, not cool. Because our personal beliefs must not impinge upon the rights of others, which is why religious persecution is so egregious. My personal convictions/beliefs re worship are just that...personal...and they must never be used to hold sway over anothers' personal convictions, particularly the right to life.

So you, as the state , with your rod of iron, will do nothing to stop us from killing our own children. Is that correct?

 

[brakelite]

So you, as the state , with your rod of iron, will do nothing to stop us from killing our own children. Is that correct?

What?

 

[Philip James]

What?

You said . "My personal convictions/beliefs re worship are just that...personal...and they must never be used to hold sway over anothers' personal convictions, particularly the right to life."

So then you will pass no law to stop me from killing my children correct?

 

[brakelite]

You said . "My personal convictions/beliefs re worship are just that...personal...and they must never be used to hold sway over anothers' personal convictions, particularly the right to life."

So then you will pass no law to stop me from killing my children correct?

Salt sprinkled upon the state to add flavour and preserve good moral judgement is a far cry from despotic control of the state to coerce compliance in submission to the traditions of man that usurp the commandments of God. Laws supporting the right to life are not religious laws, they are universal moral imperatives that all societies and all cultures rightly recognise.

 

[Philip James]

Laws supporting the right to life are not religious laws, they are universal moral imperatives that all societies and all cultures rightly recognise.

Really? How many children were aborted last year in North America to the god of convienence..

 

[brakelite]

I can see it now...feminists lobbying the Supreme Court to approve of abortion on demand as a religious conscience issue.

 

[Philip James]

I can see it now...feminists lobbying the Supreme Court to approve of abortion on demand as a religious conscience issue.

Indeed. But that is the natural outcome on having a state which refuses to enforce morality..

 

[brakelite]

Indeed. But that is the natural outcome on having a state which refuses to enforce morality..

No, it isn't. It would be if it were a religious issue, but it isn't. The problem with church/state unions is not in issues of morality, it is in issues of whether I have the conscientious right to worship according to personal conviction so long as it doesn't over-ride the rights of others. Any action of man whereby others rights are abrogated or trodden under in any way, should be dealt with by the laws of the land. Such as murder, theft, violent assault, etc. But religious conviction where no-one else is affected, ought always be protected. And it is in that area where past practices by church/state unions have gone over the line and entered into territory that belongs only to God.

 

[Philip James]

But religious conviction where no-one else is affected, ought always be protected.

Ah, now we're getting some clarity on what you mean by "religious conviction"

So then, should i be free to worship Satan and encourage others to do so, enticing them away from worship of the true God?

 

[brakelite]

@Philip James I get the impression you are deliberately attempting to fudge the boundaries in order to justify full governmental take over by the church. It is in such cases in history that the inevitable result has been genocide and persecution. And it will happen again.

 

[brakelite]

Ah, now we're getting some clarity on what you mean by "religious conviction"

So then, should i be free to worship Satan and encourage others to do so, enticing them away from worship of the true God?

Yes.

 

[Philip James]

@Philip James I get the impression you are deliberately attempting to fudge the boundaries in order to justify full governmental take over by the church. It is in such cases in history that the inevitable result has been genocide and persecution. And it will happen again.

No i am trying to establish the boundries that you, as a christian leader of your nation , would enforce.

It seems to me you are willing to enforce your moral laws to protect your subjects from physical harm to their persons or property, but that you are unwilling to protect them from spiritual harm...

Is this correct?

 

[brakelite]

No i am trying to establish the boundries that you, as a christian leader of your nation , would enforce.

It seems to me you are willing to enforce your moral laws to protect your subjects from physical harm to their persons or property, but that you are unwilling to protect them from spiritual harm...

Is this correct?

That is absolutely correct. And with no apologies for doing so. Who am I that I would dare promote myself as the infallible executor of judgement in matters pertaining to conscience? What right do I have to lord it over anothers conscience? We shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ, but none of us will be held accountable for others decisions when it comes to their personal relationship with God, and I will object to the day I die to any government agency, individual, be it priest pope or politician who would think that they have the right to dictate to me how, who, when, and why I should worship, or not worship, if I should so choose. Such issues lie between me and God and there is only one Mediator appointed to such a task...Jesus Christ the Righteous.

 

[Philip James]

Excellent. You have clarified your position honestly ,
I can respect that. It opens the possibility to have a reasonable discussion as to whether your opinion is theologically sound.

For myself, my opinion is that a leader has an even greater responsibility to guard the spuritual well being of his people than their physical well being.