A Challenge

[Brakelite]

Oh what you are talking about is people who walk around who are spiritually dead. Well even so, God will raise them up to.

No, I'm talking about these people who rejected Christ and His offer of salvation...

At the close of the thousand years the second resurrection will take place. Then the wicked will be raised from the dead and appear before God for the execution of "the judgment written." Thus the revelator, after describing the resurrection of the righteous, says: "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5. And Isaiah declares, concerning the wicked: "They shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Isaiah 24:22

“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. ”
Revelation 20:6 KJV

“7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. ”
Revelation 20:7-15 KJV

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[Lambano]

When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Sigh. Do we really want to have such a mechanical understanding of the Atonement?

Like all sacraments such as baptism, the Eucharist, and the OT sacrifices, the Atonement is an outward and visible sign pointing to an inward reality. Sacraments have meaning, but they're not magic. A more appropriate question, then, would be, "What is the reality to which Christ's death points?

So, if we're up to a challenge, let's try Paul's Galatians 2:20 one:

 

[MatthewG]

No, I'm talking about these people who rejected Christ and His offer of salvation...

At the close of the thousand years the second resurrection will take place. Then the wicked will be raised from the dead and appear before God for the execution of "the judgment written." Thus the revelator, after describing the resurrection of the righteous, says: "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5. And Isaiah declares, concerning the wicked: "They shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Isaiah 24:22

Well I believe all that stuff has happened. So that lies the difference between our perspectives as a whole.

I don't believe anything of we being in the last days, and that we need to watch and wait for Jesus today.

Jesus overcame, sin, satan, death, hell - and God through his Son reconciled the world to himself.

I believe God done took care of all the things in the past.

 

[Brakelite]

Is your question just to judge me? What did Jesus say about the poor? You remember. They will always be with you...

Some people want to be homeless by intention. Some people want to get out of their situation. Does that mean I need to give 20$ to the person on the street... and I am struggling to pay my own bills... I don't believe I do... no sir.

But that judgement if you say well matthew that is not the christian way, I would just roll my eyes and scoff at that reply.

No need to be so defensive. I said, "give what you can". If you aren't in a position to help, then there is no fault on your part at all. My objection was to your belief that evil and wickedness and homelessness and hunger and pain and sorrow was a fait accompli and thus was nothing to be done to change it.

 

[MatthewG]

No need to be so defensive.

Being honest is not a defense. It's being straightforward to keep the message direct.

I said, "give what you can". If you aren't in a position to help, then there is no fault on your part at all.

Those are conclusions to be considered for even CHURCHS that ask people for their money in order to get "blessed." I hate religious people.

My objection was to your belief that evil and wickedness and homelessness and hunger and pain and sorrow was a fait accompli and thus was nothing to be done to change it.

Well there are many "politically inclined Christian people."

That are waiting for Jesus to come down and make some changes. I am for one someone who doesn't believe those things are gonna happen...

Because God has allowed the world to go on and Jesus did come and get his bride and established the new heavens and new earth by the spiritual means of being able to get to the Father through him so...

I mean it's whatever you want to be your world view my world view is very different cause I am by no means political, but I will pay my taxes and work.

 

[JustMe]

Ummm...okay,I think?

Youve got me thinking now as well....I did agree with you, I think

 

[MatthewG]

We do have homeless shelters, people who help with rehab for free to some degree, even people who help out there to get people off of meth, or heroin, or alcohol.

I believe that is a great thing, there are people out there who go to the shelter that give out food and stuff.

But all this is just humanitarian movements and have nothing to do with God himself though he allows these things to exist for the benefit of people at least in my opinion.


Cause I do not believe that Jesus was really a humanitarian sure he loved his fellow man, but he also had to leave them to their own devices.

 

[Brakelite]

Sigh. Do we really want to have such a mechanical understanding of the Atonement?

No. I would rather it be set within the context of unbridled grace and mercy and unfathomable love, accompanied do by choruses of praise and worship. Really.
However, I keep reading on numerous threads that those who do not accept Christ into their lives are also granted eternal life but bound for eternal torment in a hellish fiery fury that will never ever extinguish the life or offer any hope of an end to suffering. My objection to that warped perception of the character of God is bound up in what truly is the redemption price paid by Christ. Sounds mechanical yes. People keep telling me I'm a heretic and lost and a member of a cult because I reject eternal torment. Kirk Cameron is getting the same treatment.

But there's a reason I approached the topic in that manner.To lead readers to a cold hard look at the absolute foundation of the gospel and the plan of redemption. That's why I called myself brakelite. When they see one on the highway, it makes most people think. And that's what my intention is here. To make people THINK.
For many, that alone is a challenge.

 

[Brakelite]

We do have homeless shelters, people who help with rehab for free to some degree, even people who help out there to get people off of meth, or heroin, or alcohol.

I believe that is a great thing, there are people out there who go to the shelter that give out food and stuff.

But all this is just humanitarian movements and have nothing to do with God himself though he allows these things to exist for the benefit of people at least in my opinion.


Cause I do not believe that Jesus was really a humanitarian sure he loved his fellow man, but he also had to leave them to their own devices.

“1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. 2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. 3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. 4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. 5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? 8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. 9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; 10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: 11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. 12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. ”
Isaiah 58:1-12 KJV

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[MatthewG]

“1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. 2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. 3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. 4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. 5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? 8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. 9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; 10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: 11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. 12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. ”
Isaiah 58:1-12 KJV

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Yeah... Okay. You have a good one man. I just tell you the truth as I see from my perspective and no one has to accept it... You know I hope you see whatever it is you are looking for but blessed are those who have not seen and believe something like that Jesus said.

Thank you for your discussion and I will leave you be now.

 

[Lambano]

And that's what my intention is here. To make people THINK.
For many, that alone is a challenge.

My own conclusion from the same argument was that my understanding of the Atonement was wrong, not that Damnationism was wrong. There are other approaches that support Annihilationism, but the tension with the Damnationist scriptures (including the words of Jesus Himself) remain.

 

[Luther7]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.


Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my first question is..... And yes it's rhetorical...

When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place.
Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And the entire OT terrified to this without exception, right from the Garden of Eden. And there are scores of scriptures in the NT that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 2:14,15; 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 1:18; 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1. Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2. Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3. Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a. Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity, and are therefore given immortality, being tortured in hell?

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c. If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life, and granted as a gift (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive the gift of eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d. And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

I believe I understand where you are coming from. I believe many Christians are beginning to understand that Jesus Christ saved us from DEATH, being the one and only perfect sacrifice for sin. He " tasted ( experienced) death" for every man (Hebrews 2:9), not an eternity in a place called " hell".

And I believe that the gift of God, eternal life, is a gift from God to those He wants (wills) to give it to. If you receive this gift ( and you most certainly will) , you are one of those whom Christ died for.

For if Christ died for each and every human being, their sin debt would be paid for ( Which is the only requirement by God to enter into His glory), and therefore every person that ever lived would be in heaven. This is why not everyone becomes saved. They are naturally rejecting the gospel like all of humanity would if not for God's mercy.

I hope my answer was helpful.

 

[amigo de christo]

Condensed Version of Your Challenge
Scripture affirms that Christ’s death was a full and final payment for sin.
• We were redeemed “with the precious blood of Christ” (1 Pet. 1:18–19).
• He bore our sins in His body on the tree (1 Pet. 2:24).
• Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust (1 Pet. 3:18).
• Christ died for our sins… was buried… and rose again (1 Cor. 15:3–4).
• Additional supporting passages: Rom. 3:25–26; 5:8–9; 6:10; Col. 1:20–22; Heb. 9:15–22.
From these Scriptures, three core principles follow:
1. Death is the just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23).
2. Christ paid that penalty fully through His death and shed blood.
3. Those who reject this atonement must bear the penalty themselves.

Your Questions (Condensed)
Given that Scripture teaches Christ paid the full penalty for sin through death:
a.
Why do many churches teach that the wicked do not die, but instead live forever in conscious torment—thus receiving immortality?

The bible says that people are outside the gates. I dont think they are being tortured and I believe they are fine with where they are at.

b.
If eternal torment is the true penalty for sin, why did Jesus not pay that penalty, since Scripture says He paid the full price?

He did pay the full price.

c.
If eternal life is the gift given only to believers (John 3:16, 36; Rom. 6:23), why do many churches teach that the wicked also receive eternal life—just in misery?

I believe that would be because Jesus said even the corrupt will be risen again, but I dont think they are in misery. I think they are fine where they are at outside the gate.

d.
If eternal torment is the real penalty for sin, then Christ did not pay that penalty, which would mean the gospel fails and all—saved and unsaved—must suffer eternally

Dont understand this question just sounds rhetorical.

i see you sure did leave out a word . Its known as and called BELIEVE .
Ye must BELEIVE IN HIM . otherwise prepare to wail at your end . and we cannot preach
a double gospel . What i mean is
WE cant sit here and tell the world HEY WE BELEIVE , only to also say OH BUT ITS NOT NECESSARY that one has to .
Because that right there is ONLY UNBELEIF we truly ever beleived in .
JESUS said and warned b ig t ime what would come upon any and upon all that rejected HIM .
That failed to BELEIVE ON HIM .
SO i have a real real GOOD idea . RATHER than trying to omit the severity of GOD
RATHER PREACH JESUS . Because I KNOW those who BELEIVE ON HIM are saved , wont see that damnation . j

 

[Pearl]

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

Jesus didn't just pay the penalty for one man he paid the penalty for all sin in every person for all time. If it's bad for one person to suffer the penalty for his own sin just think how terrible for Jesus as he paid the penalty for each one of us all at once.

 

[Brakelite]

My own conclusion from the same argument was that my understanding of the Atonement was wrong, not that Damnationism was wrong. There are other approaches that support Annihilationism, but the tension with the Damnationist scriptures (including the words of Jesus Himself) remain.

So I am not a theologian as such, and my discussions therefore may suffer somewhat for a lack of depth and understanding. So. In that vein, I must ask. What is the difference between damnationism (which I have never heard of) and annihilationism, a version of which I subscribe to?

 

[Luther7]

“47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. ”
Luke 12:47-48 KJV

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A metaphorical picture of punishment. Whoever the unrepentant sinner may be, from Satan himself to the 15yo gang affiliate killed in a drive by, eternal torment for both makes no logical, spiritual, or practical sense whatsoever. Jesus in the above analogy, puts to rest any argument in its favor.

I agree with you but I don't understand the analogy behind the scripture you provided.

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus didn't just pay the penalty for one man he paid the penalty for all sin in every person for all time. If it's bad for one person to suffer the penalty for his own sin just think how terrible for Jesus as he paid the penalty for each one of us all at once.

Oh yes indeed. We will never ever have any idea of the weight of the burden of guilt that Jesus voluntarily accepted that ultimately led to His death, which if truth be told, was the direct cause of death. And such would have destroyed any mortal man, what terrible conflict there must have been in the mind of the most holy Son of God to allow such a burden to be placed upon Him. How ugly how foreign to His nature, how objectionabl and offensivee it must have been for Him. Yet He did for you and me and everyone else on this planet.

 

[Grailhunter]

Amen. The redemption price was death...the wages of sin. Would you agree that those who do not accept by faith the redemption offered through Christ, they will have to pay the price themselves?

Depending on how you look at it, death was the penalty of Man's failure in Eden. Then from there our destination is either Heaven or Hell.

 

[Luther7]

Jesus didn't just pay the penalty for one man he paid the penalty for all sin in every person for all time. If it's bad for one person to suffer the penalty for his own sin just think how terrible for Jesus as he paid the penalty for each one of us all at once.

If I could ask you : If the sacrifice of Christ was all that was needed or required in God's sight for our justification, where does the additional act of " accepting Christ" come from? Most importantly where is it found in scripture?

 

[Luther7]

Oh yes indeed. We will never ever have any idea of the weight of the burden of guilt that Jesus voluntarily accepted that ultimately led to His death, which if truth be told, was the direct cause of death. And such would have destroyed any mortal man, what terrible conflict there must have been in the mind of the most holy Son of God to allow such a burden to be placed upon Him. How ugly how foreign to His nature, how objectionabl and offensivee it must have been for Him. Yet He did for you and me and everyone else on this planet.

After reading this I thought of this verse:
Hebrews 12:2:
looking unto Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

" the joy that was set before Him"