A Closer Look at the Genesis Creation Account

[Aunty Jane]

Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916), the WTS founder, believed that Christ had secretly arrived in the year 1874 and that he would establish the Kingdom of God on Earth in 1914-OCT. Russell based this prophecy on a "bewildering number of dates" which he recovered from his studies of the Bible and the Great Pyramid.

Charles Russell was a man, not a prophet......he never claimed to be a prophet, nor did he claim infallibility......he was wrong in his early investigations and they were dismissed.....do we still hold those beliefs? No! Because when we see that we made an error, we adjust our thinking...unlike Christendom who has not changed a thing since the Catholic church became "the church"......but the church of whom?

Revelation 3:7-9...
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:. . . . .
8 ‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have followed My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and make them know that I have loved you."

Jesus knows who the author of false Christianity is.....just as he knew who had corrupted the Jewish faith by men led by the wrong spirit.
There is a Christian counterpart to the "synagogue of satan". (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

Once again Antichrist? non-christian worlds (CE) Common Era in your dating, as opposed to using (AD) "Why"?

Many would consider this to be the spirit of antichrist

"Many" are going to consider that they are genuine "Christians" at the judgment, but will be rejected outright by Jesus for their failures... (Matthew 7:21-23)

"Many" are on the road to destruction, but "few" are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) Did you never wonder why?
Were Jesus and his disciples in a majority? Numbers mean nothing to God who prefers quality over quantity.

AD is from the Latin Church of Rome...one I do not consider to be even remotely connected to the church that Jesus Christ established. Their timing is actually out by a long shot because Jesus was not born on the date they cling to. December is not the month and the 25th is not the day....and 1CE is not the year, so to be more accurate, we prefer to stick with what the Bible says. The Common Era has nothing to do with the anti-Christ.....but December 25th actually does....as does the entirety of the Gregorian calendar if you think about it.
How does a "Christian" Pope manage to keep the days and months of his official calendar named after false gods? Have you never noticed?

CE is merely the secular counting of time.

You seem to get hung up on things that mean nothing, but accept things that are totally against everything that Jesus taught.
I think Jesus said that was like "staining out gnats but gulping down camels".....

 

[Truth7t7]

Charles Russell was a man, not a prophet......he never claimed to be a prophet, nor did he claim infallibility......he was wrong in his early investigations and they were dismissed.....do we still hold those beliefs? No! Because when we see that we made an error, we adjust our thinking...unlike Christendom who has not changed a thing since the Catholic church became "the church"......but the church of whom?

Revelation 3:7-9...
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:. . . . .
8 ‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have followed My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and make them know that I have loved you."

Jesus knows who the author of false Christianity is.....just as he knew who had corrupted the Jewish faith by men led by the wrong spirit.
There is a Christian counterpart to the "synagogue of satan". (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)


"Many" are going to consider that they are genuine "Christians" at the judgment, but will be rejected outright by Jesus for their failures... (Matthew 7:21-23)

"Many" are on the road to destruction, but "few" are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) Did you never wonder why?
Were Jesus and his disciples in a majority? Numbers mean nothing to God who prefers quality over quantity.

AD is from the Latin Church of Rome...one I do not consider to be even remotely connected to the church that Jesus Christ established. Their timing is actually out by a long shot because Jesus was not born on the date they cling to. December is not the month and the 25th is not the day....and 1CE is not the year, so to be more accurate, we prefer to stick with what the Bible says. The Common Era has nothing to do with the anti-Christ.....but December 25th actually does....as does the entirety of the Gregorian calendar if you think about it.
How does a "Christian" Pope manage to keep the days and months of his official calendar named after false gods? Have you never noticed?

CE is merely the secular counting of time.

You seem to get hung up on things that mean nothing, but accept things that are totally against everything that Jesus taught.
I think Jesus said that was like "staining out gnats but gulping down camels".....

Do you believe Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh?

John 1:1-3KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Truth7t7]

Charles Russell was a man, not a prophet...

Jehovah's Witnesses and the History of 1914 (Part 1)

In the 1 November 1995 Watchtower magazine, the Jehovah's Witnesses made a major doctrinal change concerning the "Generation of 1914." To better understand the significance of this change it is crucial to understand the importance they place on the year 1914 and how their beliefs concerning that year have radically changed throughout their history. The following is a brief survey of the Watchtower's inconsistencies.

"Beginning of end" in 1799 not 1914
Originally the Watchtower taught that the beginning of "the time of the end" was in 1799 rather than 1914. They continued to teach this well beyond 1914.

"...1799 definitely marks the beginning of 'the time of the end'.... 'The time of the end' embraces a period from A.D. 1799, as above indicated, to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire....we have been in 'the time of the end' since 1799" (The Harp of God, 1928 ed., pp. 235-36, 239).

Christ's Invisible Second Presence in 1874 not 1914.
Based originally on the teachings of the Second Adventist preacher Nelson H. Barbour (Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of Christ's Kingdom, p. 47), the Watchtower Society taught that Christ's invisible second presence began in 1874 - not 1914 as they currently teach.

"The time of the Lord's second presence dates from 1874....From 1874 forward is the latter part of the period of 'the time of the end'. From 1874 is the time of the Lord's second presence... It was in the year 1874, the date of our Lord's second presence..." (The Harp of God, 1928 ed., pp. 236, 239-40).

Armageddon ends in 1914
Initially the organization taught the "battle of the Great Day of God Almighty" (Armageddon) would end in 1914. Every kingdom of the world would be overthrown in 1914 which was "God's date" not for the beginning but "for the end" of the time of trouble.

"...we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914" (Watchtower founder, Charles Taze Russell, The Time is at Hand, p. 99).

"¼...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced" (Ibid., p. 101).

"CAN IT BE DELAYED UNTIL 1914?...our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can last so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble" (Watch Tower, 15 July 1894, p. 226).

Armageddon ends shortly after 1914
World War I, rather than Armageddon, broke out in 1914. The Society had already begun to modify their prediction. They taught that 1914 was not the end, but the beginning of Armageddon. World War I was supposed to be the beginning of the Battle of Armageddon. That battle was to end shortly after 1914 with the utter destruction of professing Christianity, and the inauguration of Christ's millennial reign. The Watchtower first suggested this would be accomplished in 1915, but later predictions delayed it to 1918.

"The present great war in Europe [World War I] is the beginning of the Armageddon of the Scriptures" (Pastor Russell's Sermons, p. 676).

"...our eyes of understanding should discern clearly the Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty now in progress... the glorious outcome - Messiah's Kingdom" (Watch Tower, 1 September 1916, p. 265).

"The Scriptures indicate that a great time of trouble similar to that which came upon the Jewish nation will now come upon all Christendom. The experience of Israel in the year 70 [destruction of Jerusalem] will be paralleled in the experiences of the year 1915" (Watch Tower, 15 June 1913, p. 181).

"...in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of 'Christianity'" (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 485).

1925 is clearly more biblical than 1914
By 1919-20 the Society began looking to the year 1925 as the date for the visible signs of Armageddon's approach. The Watchtower taught that the year 1925 was more clearly taught in the Bible than 1914. Watchtower president Joseph Rutherford claimed that as a sign that Armageddon was imminent, God would resurrect Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the faithful mentioned in Hebrews 11 in the year 1925.

"The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures because it is fixed by the law God gave to Israel. Viewing the present situation in Europe, one wonders how it will be possible to hold back the explosion much longer; and that even before 1925 the great crisis will be reached and probably passed" (Watch Tower, 1 September 1922, p. 262).

"The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year" (Watch Tower, 15 July 1924, p. 211).

"As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized... Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection" (Millions Now Living Will Never Die! pp. 89-90).

 

[Truth7t7]

Charles Russell was a man, not a prophet...

(Part 2)

1914 begins the last generation before Armageddon
Years later the Watchtower Society made three important changes for 1914. They taught:

• Christ's invisible "Second Presence" began in 1914 rather than 1874.
• 1914 (rather than 1799) began the "last generation."
• The length of a "generation" was based on the life span of those alive at the time of its beginning. This final point led to the Watchtower's claim that Jehovah had promised there would be "survivors" among those alive in 1914 who would live to see Armageddon.

"Did not Jesus say as much when he spoke of his second presence in these 'last days'?...Christ Jesus has been present since 1914 and witness has been given of the signs that prove it, but the veil will not lift from the sightless 'eyes of understanding' of humanity's majority till his power is revealed in Armageddon's fury" (Watchtower, 15 January 1950, p. 22).

"The thirty-six intervening years since 1914, instead of postponing Armageddon, have only made it nearer than most people think. Do not forget: 'This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.' (Matt. 24:34)" (Watchtower, 1 November 1950, p. 419).

"The foretold events having begun A.D. 1914, the generation of mankind that is still alive from that year is the generation meant by Jesus Christ. Till now we have seen fulfilled the world-shaking features of the 'sign of [Christ's invisible] presence and of the consummation of the system of things.'...The occurrence of these things since 1914 is within the knowledge of millions of this generation.... We, then, are the generation that will not pass away till there is fulfilled that 'great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again'" (Watchtower, 15 April 1961, p. 236; brackets in original, italics added).

"Also, the Bible said that all these things would happen upon the generation that was alive in 1914... After drawing attention to the many things that have marked the period from 1914 onward, Jesus said: 'This generation will by no means pass away until all these things [including the end of this system] occur.' (Matthew 24:34, 14) Which generation did Jesus mean? He meant the generation of people who were living in 1914. Those persons yet remaining of that generation are now very old. However, some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. So of this we can be certain: Shortly now there will be a sudden end to all wickedness and wicked people at Armageddon... Some of the generation living in 1914 will see the end of the system of things and survive it" (You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, p.154.

People old enough to understand the events of 1914 will live to see Armageddon
For a while the Society maintained that "1914 Generation" was a reference to those alive "with understanding" in 1914. This significantly shortens the time period for fulfillment. According to the Society, Jesus was not talking about babies born in 1914 when he said, "this generation would not pass away." Thus, those who were old enough to observe and understand the events they witnessed in 1914 (such as teenagers) would live to see Armageddon. This would mean that a very young member of the "1914 generation" (say, a sixteen-year-old) would have been born as early as 1898 or 1899.

"Where Are We According to God's Timetable?... In examining these Scriptural facts, something else also captures our attention. According to Bible chronology, we are already over fifty-two years into the wicked system of things' 'time of the end.' That time began in the autumn of 1914 C.E., at the termination of the 'appointed times of the nations,' and it is already far advanced. Jesus said that 'this generation' that saw the beginning of this time period in 1914 would also see its end. The generation that was old enough to view those events with understanding in 1914 is no longer young. It no longer has many years to run. Already many of its members have died. But Jesus showed that there would still be members of 'this generation' alive at the time of the passing away of this wicked system of things in both heaven and earth. (Luke 21:32, 33) How much longer will it be, then, before God takes action to destroy the wicked and usher in the blessings of his Kingdom rule? (Watchtower, 1 May 1967, p. 262; emphasis added).

"What will the 1970's Bring? The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the 'last days' have already gone by is highly significant... It means only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God. How can we be so certain of this?¼ Jesus was obviously speaking about those who were old enough to witness with understanding what took place when the 'last days' began... Even if we presume that the youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today" (Awake!, 8 October 1968, pp. 13-14).

"Jesus said 'this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.' Which generation is this, and how long is it?... [W]hen it comes to the application in our time, the 'generation' logically would not apply to babies born during World War I. It applies to Christ's followers and others who were able to observe that war and the other things that have occurred in fulfillment of Jesus' composite 'sign.' Some of such persons 'will by no means pass away until' all of what Christ prophesied occurs, including the end of the present wicked system" (Watchtower, 1 October 1978, p. 31).

Babies born in 1914 will live to see Armageddon
By 1984 teenagers alive in 1914 were in their 80's. The Watchtower reversed themselves again to include babies born in 1914 when calculating the length of the generation. Using this technique the Watchtower could stretch the 1914 generation by another decade or so.

"If Jesus used 'generation' in that sense and we apply it to 1914, then the babies of that generation are now 70 years old or older. And others alive in 1914 are in their 80's or 90's, a few even having reached a hundred. There are still many millions of that generation alive. Some of them 'will by no means pass away until all things occur.' - Luke 21:32" (Watchtower, 15 May 1984, p.5).

1914 Generation to end in 1975?
As early as the mid 1960's, the Watchtower had strongly suggested that the 1914 generation would end by the Fall of 1975. They based the 1975 prediction in part on their "year for a day" theory and the "fact" that Adam and Eve were created in the year 4,026 B.C. This anticipation was seen to be "particularly true" because some of those who witnessed the events of 1914 would still be alive in 1975. Thus, the 1914 generation theory helped "prove" the 1975 Armageddon theory.

"To calculate where man is in the stream of time relative to God's seventh day of 7,000 years, we need to determine how long a time has elapsed from the year of Adam and Eve's creation in 4026 B.C.E. From the autumn of that year to the autumn of 1 B.C.E., there would be 4,025 years. From the autumn of 1 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1 C.E. is one year (there was no zero year). From the autumn of 1 C.E. to the autumn of 1967 is a total of 1,966 years. Adding 4,025 and 1 and 1,966, we get 5,992 years from the autumn of 4026 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1967. Thus, eight years remain to account for a full 6,000 years of the seventh day. Eight years from the autumn of 1967 would bring us to the autumn of 1975, fully 6,000 years into God's seventh day, his rest day.

"...The seventh day of the Jewish week, the sabbath, would well picture the final 1,000- year reign of God's kingdom under Christ... Hence, when Christians note from God's timetable the approaching end of 6,000 years of human history, it fills them with anticipation. Particularly is this true because the great sign of the 'last days' has been in the course of fulfillment since the beginning of the 'time of the end' in 1914... Some of the generation that discerned the beginning of the time of the end in 1914 will still be alive on earth to witness the end of this present wicked system of things at the battle of Armageddon.-Rev. 16:14, 16" (Watchtower, 1 May 1968, pp. 271-72).

 

[Truth7t7]

Charles Russell was a man, not a prophet......

(Part 3)

1914 Generation to end in 1989?
In a 1988 Awake! article titled, "The Last Days - What's Next?", under the heading, "How Long Can A Generation Last?", the Society seemed to suggest that the 1914 generation would end the next year. After reminding Jehovah's Witnesses that 1914 began the "last generation," the Watchtower announced that Hebrews counted seventy-five years as one generation (note: 1914 + 75 = 1989). Interestingly, to make their case, the Watchtower turned to one of Christendom's scholars rather than their own "anointed" sources.

"J. A. Bengel states in his New Testament Word Studies: 'The Hebrews... reckon seventy-five years as one generation, and the words, shall not pass away, intimate that the greater part of that generation [of Jesus' day] indeed, but not the whole of it, should have passed away before all should be fulfilled.' This became true by the year 70 C.E. when Jerusalem was destroyed. Likewise today, most of the generation of 1914 has passed away. However, there are still millions on earth who were born in that year or prior to it. And although their numbers are dwindling, Jesus' words will come true, 'this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened'" (Awake!, 8 April 1988, p. 14).

1914 Generation to end in 1994?
A more serious problem for the Society is found in their premier two volume Bible dictionary, Insight on the Scriptures. Currently in use, Insight was a major project for the Watchtower and provides Jehovah's Witnesses the definitive answer to biblical meanings. Insight very clearly defines the "reasonable limits" for the length of a generation as 70, or in the case of "special mightiness," 80 years.

"When the term 'generation' is used with reference to the people living at a particular time, the exact length of that time cannot be stated, except that the time would fall within reasonable limits. These limits would be determined by the life span of the people of that time or of that population... Today, much as it was in the time of Moses, people living under favorable conditions may reach 70 or 80 years of age. Moses wrote: 'In themselves the days of our years are seventy years; and if because of special mightiness they are eighty years, yet their insistence is on trouble and hurtful things; for it must quickly pass by, and away we fly.' (Ps 90:10) Some few may live longer, but Moses stated the general rule." (Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 1, pp. 917-18).

1914 Generation to end ????
Finally the Society has abandoned all attempts to measure the 1914 generation by the life span of its "survivors." According to the latest "light," 1914 still started "the last generation" that will end in Armageddon. But the 1914 generation now consists of all "the peoples of earth who see the sign" of Christ's 1914 presence but fail to repent (Watchtower, 1 November 1995, p. 19). In Watchtower dogma, this "sign" is a "composite" sign made up of many historical events of which virtually all adults alive today would be aware, regardless of when they were born.

"Rather than providing a rule for measuring time, the term 'generation' as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics" (Ibid., p. 17). With such a definition, a "generation" could, functionally, last indefinitely - conveniently protecting the Watchtower against further charges of failed prophecy over its teaching about the 1914 generation surviving till the "end of the system." To maintain a sense of urgency, the Society claims the time period begun in 1914 is "a short period of time" (Ibid., p. 19). How can they say this after defining "generation" so vaguely? It is short, they say, when "compared with the thousands of years of Satan's rulership" (Ibid.).

The following composite quotations drawn from throughout their recent article, "A Time to Keep Awake" illustrate the Watchtower's current position:

"Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah's people have at times speculated about the time when the 'great tribulation' would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However we 'bring a heart of wisdom in' not by speculating about how many years or days make up a generation... Is anything to be gained, then, by looking for dates or by speculating about the literal lifetime of a 'generation'? Far from it!... Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy today, 'this generation' apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways... Does our more precise viewpoint on 'this generation' mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all" (Watchtower, 1 November 1995, pp. 17, 19-20).

1914 and False Prophecy
The Bible teaches that predictions spoken in God's name which do not come to pass are evidence that the prophet really does not speak for God. The Lord's people are commanded not to "fear" (Hebrew, guwr, to be intimidated by, or have humility towards) this prophet In fact, under the Old Testament law, this prophet was sentenced to death (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). The Society has verified this understanding of Deuteronomy on several occasions (See: Awake!, 8 October 1968, p. 23; Watch Tower, 15 April 1930, p. 154).

Jehovah's Witnesses have attempted to blunt criticism of their past prophetic failures by professing never to have claimed to be a prophet - an assertion that is simply false. (See: Watchtower, 1 April 1972, p. 197; The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah, pp. 58, 66).

More recently, in an article critical of others who had given "false alarms" concerning Armageddon, the Society did admit to having some problems in this area themselves. Still, the Society attempted to side step false prophecy charges by claiming that their predictions were never said with "these are the words of Jehovah."

"Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions 'in the name of Jehovah.' Never did they say, 'These are the words of Jehovah.'" (Awake!, 22 March 1993 p. 4).

The Watchtower surely cannot use this excuse with their latest 1914 failure. The Watchtower plainly said that it was "the Creator's promise" that the new world would come "before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away" (Awake! 22 October 1995, p. 4). Elsewhere they even called this prediction for the 1914 generation, "Jehovah's prophetic word":

"From a purely human viewpoint, it could appear that these developments could hardly take place before the generation of 1914 disappears from the scene. But fulfillment of all the foretold events affecting the generation of 1914 does not depend on comparatively slow human action. Jehovah's prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: 'This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.' (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son's words in a relatively short time...

"Just as Jesus' prophecies regarding Jerusalem were fulfilled within the life span of the generation of the year 33 C.E., so his prophecies regarding 'the time of the end' will be fulfilled within the life span of the generation of 1914... Yes, you may live to see this promised New Order, along with survivors of the generation of 1914 - the generation that will not pass away. (Watchtower, 15 May 1984, pp. 6-7; emphasis added, brackets in original).

 

[Brakelite]

Man begets man....spirit begets spirit....angels are spirits but they are not God. Jesus was created as a spirit, (the same “form” as his God) but that does not automatically make him God or even his equal.

Yahweh has no equal....(Psalm 83:18)

Man begets man... Not flesh of another kind. Good created angels... God begets another of the same kind... God.

KJV Psalms 83:18
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

And Jesus confirmed the above when He said, that they may know thee, the only true God.
But that doesn't contradict the fact that the Son is begotten of the Father. Remember, it wasn't me who inspired the scriptures... Of you don't believe in the only begotten Son, but a created son, then have it out with the Father.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Man begets man... Not flesh of another kind. Good created angels... God begets another of the same kind... God.

Spirit begets spirit. Jesus was in the same "form" as his God....."God is a spirit". (John 4:24)

KJV Psalms 83:18
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Yep, there is no one higher.....but Jesus is not Jehovah....where in all of the Bible does it say that?

And Jesus confirmed the above when He said, that they may know thee, the only true God.

Finish the scripture....Jesus is praying to his Father....
" And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

There are two separate entities.....not one God in two forms. One is "divine" the other is "deity".....please learn the difference.

But that doesn't contradict the fact that the Son is begotten of the Father.

"Monogenes" is Greek for an only child. The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents. There is no special word for this in reference to Jesus who is the son of his Father....
Why would God and his son use such references if we are not to understand their relationship? God did not give birth to this son in the human way, but created him as the very first of his creative activity (Colossians 1:15).....why is it that this fact, backed up by the Bible in everything Jesus said and did, makes people believe that Jesus must have been God to pay the ransom for the human race? Who told them that?....not God or Christ...so where did this idea come from? Its is not in the Bible unless it is forced into ambiguous or mistranslated verses.

Remember, it wasn't me who inspired the scriptures... Of you don't believe in the only begotten Son, but a created son, then have it out with the Father.

You don't seem to realize that it isn't the scriptures that are wrong...only the way they are interpreted to perpetuate this lie.
I have no need to "have it out with the Father" because the son himself said he was "the Son of God".....if he was God, wouldn't he have said so? He never did....not once.

Such an important fact and there is not a single clear statement about it......

 

[Truth7t7]

Spirit begets spirit. Jesus was in the same "form" as his God....."God is a spirit". (John 4:24)


Yep, there is no one higher.....but Jesus is not Jehovah....where in all of the Bible does it say that?


Finish the scripture....Jesus is praying to his Father....
" And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

There are two separate entities.....not one God in two forms. One is "divine" the other is "deity".....please learn the difference.


"Monogenes" is Greek for an only child. The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents. There is no special word for this in reference to Jesus who is the son of his Father....
Why would God and his son use such references if we are not to understand their relationship? God did not give birth to this son in the human way, but created him as the very first of his creative activity (Colossians 1:15).....why is it that this fact, backed up by the Bible in everything Jesus said and did, makes people believe that Jesus must have been God to pay the ransom for the human race? Who told them that?....not God or Christ...so where did this idea come from? Its is not in the Bible unless it is forced into ambiguous or mistranslated verses.


You don't seem to realize that it isn't the scriptures that are wrong...only the way they are interpreted to perpetuate this lie.
I have no need to "have it out with the Father" because the son himself said he was "the Son of God".....if he was God, wouldn't he have said so? He never did....not once.

Such an important fact and there is not a single clear statement about it......

Hebrews 1:8KJV
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

John 8:58KJV
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Cooper]

But not one of those scriptures says that Jesus is God. Only that he features prominently in God’s purpose in redeeming mankind, who were sold into slavery to sin and death by the disobedience of Adam.

If Adam had not chosen to disobey his God, Jesus would never have been needed to act as redeemer....he would never have been born as a human.....and his role in the Kingdom would have been redundant......but he would still have played an important role as “the Logos” who has been “with God” since his creation.....he has always been “the Word”....God’s chief spokesman.

Jesus advised his disciples to let the blind follow the blind. It is good advice. The trouble is, their end will be worse than their beginning. You should heed the warnings about false teachers.
.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus advised his disciples to let the blind follow the blind. It is good advice. The trouble is, their end will be worse than their beginning. You should heed the warnings about false teachers.
.

Yes (Charles Taze Russel) Founder Of The Jehovahs Witnesses Was A False Teacher, And Many Have Been Deceived By Following And Promoting These Teachings

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes (Charles Taze Russel) Founder Of The Jehovahs Witnesses Was A False Teacher, And Many Have Been Deceived By Following And Promoting These Teachings

Many have been deceived? How many do you think have been deceived by Christendom for almost two thousand years? Who was your “founder”....do you know? I can tell you it wasn’t Jesus. He never taught what Christendom believes as her foundational doctrines....not one of them. They all came from the Roman Catholic Church.

But....isn’t it always the way...when people can’t defend, they attack....

It’s a classic case right here.

Why can you not just use the scriptures to defend your view? Is there a reason why you can’t....
The scriptures that have been used have been shot down under closer scrutiny, leaving you nowhere to go but right the pig’s trough to dish your dirt. It makes me laugh actually.....Its a dead giveaway.

Shooting the messenger doesn’t make the message go away. Last I looked, you are free to believe whatever you wish.....no one is standing over you with a big stick forcing you believe anything.

We will all answer to the same judge, won’t we...so let’s just wait and see...shall we?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus advised his disciples to let the blind follow the blind. It is good advice. The trouble is, their end will be worse than their beginning. You should heed the warnings about false teachers.
.

Since you seem to follow guides that very few others follow.....who are your guides??
What if you are the one guided by the wrong guides? How would you know?

Just ask them what God’s Kingdom is and watch them squirm....

 

[Truth7t7]

Many have been deceived? How many do you think have been deceived by Christendom for almost two thousand years? Who was your “founder”....do you know? I can tell you it wasn’t Jesus. He never taught what Christendom believes as her foundational doctrines....not one of them. They all came from the Roman Catholic Church.

But....isn’t it always the way...when people can’t defend, they attack....

It’s a classic case right here.

Why can you not just use the scriptures to defend your view? Is there a reason why you can’t....
The scriptures that have been used have been shot down under closer scrutiny, leaving you nowhere to go but right the pig’s trough to dish your dirt. It makes me laugh actually.....Its a dead giveaway.

Shooting the messenger doesn’t make the message go away. Last I looked, you are free to believe whatever you wish.....no one is standing over you with a big stick forcing you believe anything.

We will all answer to the same judge, won’t we...so let’s just wait and see...shall we?

I have nothing to do with the catholic church as you claim, nor do I follow their doctrines or teachings

I Follow The Teachibgs In The Holy Scripture, And No Place Does It Teach That Armageddon Was Going To Take Place In 1914AD As Charles Taze Russell Falsely Taught

Charles Taze Russel Founder Of The Jehovah's Witnesses Was A False Teacher, And Many Follow And Promote These Teachings In Deception

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have nothing to do with the catholic church as you claim, nor do I follow their doctrines or teachings

I Follow The Teachibgs In The Holy Scripture, And No Place Does It Teach That Armageddon Was Going To Take Place In 1914AD As Charles Taze Russell Falsely Taught

Charles Taze Russel Founder Of The Jehovah's Witnesses Was A False Teacher, And Many Follow And Promote These Teachings In Deception

And is this something we teach or have taught in the last 50 years? Like I said, we are progressive in our understanding. We have the Watchtower as our logo for a very good reason. In Matthew 24:43-44 we are told to “keep on the watch” which is something we have continued to do. The watchman was to stand guard and sound a warning if something was seen approaching the city. Until the watchman could identify what was approaching, the people were placed on alert. If it was a false alarm, the watchman sounded another alert to say that all was well, and the city went back to business as usual.

You can rattle on all you like about what we have and haven’t said over the last hundred years or so...but at least we have obeyed the command given to all Christians...and that is to preach “the good news of the Kingdom” in all the inhabited earth. (Matthew 24:14)....I am still waiting for you to give me your definition of the Kingdom and what it will accomplish for mankind and what those who make up the “elect” will do there in the place that Jesus went to prepare for them.

Am I to hear crickets from you too? You continue to repeat some mindless mantra as if that makes you feel better, but you still cannot answer a simple question about the Kingdom of God. Jesus taught us to pray for it to “come”, and yet you can’t even tell me what it is.....do you follow the teachings of the Bible if you cannot answer such a fundamental question? Do you have any idea what Armageddon is?

 

[Brakelite]

Spirit begets spirit. Jesus was in the same "form" as his God....."God is a spirit". (John 4:24)


Yep, there is no one higher.....but Jesus is not Jehovah....where in all of the Bible does it say that?


Finish the scripture....Jesus is praying to his Father....
" And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

There are two separate entities.....not one God in two forms. One is "divine" the other is "deity".....please learn the difference.


"Monogenes" is Greek for an only child. The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents. There is no special word for this in reference to Jesus who is the son of his Father....
Why would God and his son use such references if we are not to understand their relationship? God did not give birth to this son in the human way, but created him as the very first of his creative activity (Colossians 1:15).....why is it that this fact, backed up by the Bible in everything Jesus said and did, makes people believe that Jesus must have been God to pay the ransom for the human race? Who told them that?....not God or Christ...so where did this idea come from? Its is not in the Bible unless it is forced into ambiguous or mistranslated verses.


You don't seem to realize that it isn't the scriptures that are wrong...only the way they are interpreted to perpetuate this lie.
I have no need to "have it out with the Father" because the son himself said he was "the Son of God".....if he was God, wouldn't he have said so? He never did....not once.

Such an important fact and there is not a single clear statement about it......

Excuse me, but none here is denying that Jesus is the Son of God. And when Jesus spoke of God as His Father in the hearing of the Jews, they knew exactly what He meant. He meant Son in the very highest sense. And it is in that sense that makes Him equal with the Father in all respects except rank. That is why the Jews sought to kill Him. And I have already explained to you that the"beginning of the creation of God" is better translated as the beginner of the creation of God.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Genesis 1:26
God was obviously speaking to someone – and it must have been someone either identical or almost identical to Himself. This is because He says “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”. God the Father who made all things through His Son (the Word) as the writer of Hebrews says of God, creation and the Son “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Hebrews 1:1-3
Christ is the “express image” of His Father’s person. God and Christ are two separate individual personalities. God created the world through His Son (see John 1:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 3:9 and Colossians 1:16-17 etc). In the book of Zechariah there is also a reference to a conversation between the Father and the Son – this time concerning the salvation of mankind. It says “Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” Zechariah 6:13
It is God and Christ who are being spoken of here. Two separate individuals. Notice there is no reference to a third person (i. e. the Holy Spirit).

According to Strong’s concordance, ‘monogenes’ is compounded of two separate words, namely ‘monos’ and ‘ginomai’. It says “3439 … Monogenes … from 3441 and 1096; Only-born, i.e. sole - only (begotten, child) (James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., The New Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, New Strong’s Concise Dictionary of the words in the Greek Testament, page 59) Needless to say, if someone is not begotten then they cannot be an offspring in any sense of meaning. In the KJV, ‘monos’ is often rendered ‘alone’ or ‘only’. This can be found in texts such as Matthew 4:10, Matthew 17:8, 1 Corinthians 9:6, 2 Timothy 4:11, Jude 1:4 etc (translated only) and Matthew 18:15, Mark 6:47, John 6:15, 8:16, Galatians 6:4 etc (translated alone). In other places it is translated ‘themselves’ (see Mark 9:2 and Luke 24:12) – meaning no one else beside or nothing else beside (on their own). From its usage in the Scriptures, it can be seen that ‘mono’ has a very obvious meaning. It is also the prefix we commonly use for understanding something to be ‘one only’. This is such as in monochrome (one colour), monotone (one tone) and monogamy (one spouse at one time) etc. The word ‘ginomai’ has a more varied application. It is translated as ‘done’ over 50 times – also ‘came’ (as in ‘came to pass’) over 50 times. It is also translated, ‘come’, ‘become’, ‘made’ and ‘fulfilled’. Strong’s describes it as a word that is translated in the KJV as ‘be assembled’, ‘be’ (come), ‘be’ (brought to pass), ‘arise’, ‘continue’ etc. It is a word that has been described as meaning changing from one condition (state) to another. Strong’s also describes this word as “A prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; ‘to cause to be’ (“gen”erate) i.e. reflexively to become (come into being)” (see The New Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, New Strong’s Concise Dictionary of the words in the Greek Testament, page 19). As a verb, ‘ginomai’ is a part of speech expressing either ‘action’ or the ‘result of action’. As we were all taught in school, a verb is a ‘doing’ or ‘something done’ or ‘something happening’ part of speech (an action word). Putting these two words together (‘monos’ and ginomai’), it is reasonable to conclude that ‘monogenes’ has a meaning such as ‘the only one that has come to pass’ or, ‘the only one who has been brought to pass (has happened)’ or ‘the only one to come into being’ – which in application to children does have, according to Strong’s Concordance, the meaning of “only-born, i.e. sole - only (begotten, child)” (see above). I would reason therefore that John recorded Jesus as saying of Himself (as in John 3:16) that He was the ‘only one who is come to pass’ or who has ‘been brought to pass’ of God. This would mean of course that the Son of God can also be correctly described as being either ‘unique’ or ‘one and only’ or ‘one of a kind’ etc, or, God Himself begotten’. This was the view of early Christian writers. They understood the Scriptures as saying that Christ was begotten of God.
A real Son. Not a metaphorical Son.

 

[Brakelite]

I would add, that
KJV Deuteronomy 28:58
58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
The Lord thy God in the above verse is the union of Father and Son. It is plural. Jehovah elohim.

 

[Brakelite]

KJV Deuteronomy 30:10
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Who was it that spoke His law on Sinai other than Christ, the word of God? Jesus was the God of Israel speaking to them and meeting with Moses, was in the cloud and the fire, represented by the Rock that split to provide "living water".

 

[Brakelite]

“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will…That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father….For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;” {John 5:21-27}.
What kind of life did the Father have in Himself? God’s life ‘is life original, unborrowed, underived,’ ‘immortal,’ ‘independent.’ ‘He is the source of life.’ Christ says, ‘As the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given’—the same life, original, unborrowed, underived life to the Son. It was ‘given’ to Him by His Father. Christ was made the source of life just as the Father was the source of life.
Christ had the same life the Father had in Himself in His own right. He did not have to derive or borrow it, it was independent of the Father, hence not dependent, derived, or borrowed. He could bestow and give life and create just as the Father could, but the Father gave this life to His Son. His life was inherited.
KJV John 5:19-47
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"
In one of the earliest prophecies of Christ it is written, “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.” Genesis 49:10. The people were gathering to Christ. The sympathetic hearts of the multitude accepted lessons of love and benevolence in preference to the rigid ceremonies required by the priests. If the priests and rabbis had not interposed, His teaching would have wrought such a reformation as this world has never witnessed. But in order to maintain their own power, these leaders determined to break down the influence of Jesus. His arraignment before the Sanhedrin, and an open condemnation of His teachings, would aid in effecting this; for the people still had great reverence for their religious leaders. Whoever dared to condemn the rabbinical requirements, or attempt to lighten the burdens they had brought upon the people, was regarded as guilty, not only of blasphemy, but of treason. On this ground the rabbis hoped to excite suspicion of Christ. They represented Him as trying to overthrow the established customs, thus causing division among the people, and preparing the way for complete subjugation by the Romans.
But the plans which these rabbis were working so zealously to fulfill originated in another council than that of the Sanhedrin. After Satan had failed to overcome Christ in the wilderness, he combined his forces to oppose Him in His ministry, and if possible to thwart His work. What he could not accomplish by direct, personal effort, he determined to effect by strategy. No sooner had he withdrawn from the conflict in the wilderness than in council with his confederate angels he matured his plans for still further blinding the minds of the Jewish people, that they might not recognize their Redeemer. He planned to work through his human agencies in the religious world, by imbuing them with his own enmity against the champion of truth. He would lead them to reject Christ and to make His life as bitter as possible, hoping to discourage Him in His mission. And the leaders in Israel became instruments of Satan in warring against the Saviour.
In one of the earliest prophecies of Christ it is written, “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.” Genesis 49:10. The people were gathering to Christ. The sympathetic hearts of the multitude accepted lessons of love and benevolence in preference to the rigid ceremonies required by the priests. If the priests and rabbis had not interposed, His teaching would have wrought such a reformation as this world has never witnessed. But in order to maintain their own power, these leaders determined to break down the influence of Jesus. His arraignment before the Sanhedrin, and an open condemnation of His teachings, would aid in effecting this; for the people still had great reverence for their religious leaders. Whoever dared to condemn the rabbinical requirements, or attempt to lighten the burdens they had brought upon the people, was regarded as guilty, not only of blasphemy, but of treason. On this ground the rabbis hoped to excite suspicion of Christ. They represented Him as trying to overthrow the established customs, thus causing division among the people, and preparing the way for complete subjugation by the Romans.
But the plans which these rabbis were working so zealously to fulfill originated in another council than that of the Sanhedrin. After Satan had failed to overcome Christ in the wilderness, he combined his forces to oppose Him in His ministry, and if possible to thwart His work. What he could not accomplish by direct, personal effort, he determined to effect by strategy. No sooner had he withdrawn from the conflict in the wilderness than in council with his confederate angels he matured his plans for still further blinding the minds of the Jewish people, that they might not recognize their Redeemer. He planned to work through his human agencies in the religious world, by imbuing them with his own enmity against the champion of truth. He would lead them to reject Christ and to make His life as bitter as possible, hoping to discourage Him in His mission. And the leaders in Israel became instruments of Satan in warring against the Saviour.

We are not told when Christ received “life in himself”, how far back in dateless ages this occurred is not for us to know. The important thing is Christ has it and it was given to him by His Father. This point is pivotal to the atonement, for if Christ was the same as his Father with no Origin then we have a real problem. If Christ the Son of God was without origin or beginning of days and did not receive “life in himself” from the Father, then Christ would be as the Father and could not die. If we believe Jesus’ testimony in KJV John 5:25-26
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; that he was given “life in himself” then indeed he could give up what was originally given Him and in reality die the equivalent of the first and second death and atone for mankind.

It is the fact that Christ is truly the Son of God, that He received all things of the Father, including and especially the life of the Father, that qualifies the Son to be called God. That Christ is the Son of God is the greatest evidence to His deity.

 

[Cooper]

Since you seem to follow guides that very few others follow.....who are your guides??
What if you are the one guided by the wrong guides? How would you know?

Just ask them what God’s Kingdom is and watch them squirm....

The scriptures I posted, the Bible is my guide, are about the pre-incarnate Jesus, you know the One God who created heaven and earth. Just over 2,000 years ago he came to his own people, having a new name, in the likeness of man for all to see. If you do not want to believe in him, then do not read Colossians 1:16.
.

 

[Truth7t7]

And is this something we teach or have taught in the last 50 years? Like I said, we are progressive in our understanding. We have the Watchtower as our logo for a very good reason. In Matthew 24:43-44 we are told to “keep on the watch” which is something we have continued to do. The watchman was to stand guard and sound a warning if something was seen approaching the city. Until the watchman could identify what was approaching, the people were place on alert. If it was a false alarm, the watchman sounded another alert to say that all was well, and the city went back to business as usual.

You can rattle on all you like about what we have and haven’t said over the last hundred years or so...but at least we have obeyed the command given to all Christians...and that is to preach “the good news of the Kingdom” in all the inhabited earth. (Matthew 24:14)....I am still waiting for you to give me your definition of the Kingdom and what it will accomplish for mankind and what those who make up the “elect” will do there in the place that Jesus went to prepare for them.

Am I to hear crickets from you too? You continue to repeat some mindless mantra as if that makes you feel better, but you still cannot answer a simple question about the Kingdom of God. Jesus taught us to pray for it to “come”, and yet you can’t even tell me what it is.....do you follow the teachings of the Bible if you cannot answer such a fundamental question? Do you have any idea what Armageddon is?

I asked you previously without answer, I'll ask again

Are you a publisher or a pioneer?