A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

This response indicates to me that you did not comprehend a word that the scriptures themselves said to you...nor have you any comprehension of the Greek words that are mistranslated.
But that is OK....Noah preached to the people of his day, only to meet with opposition and ridicule, but he preached anyway....do you know why? With the dimensions of the ark, he would have known that few if any who were going to take his warning seriously, yet he 'preached righteousness' to those unrighteous people for the whole time he was constructing the only place of safety there would be when God delivered his judgment upon them. Not one of them listened, but as the water swirled around them, who could say that God did not warn them of what he was going to do?

It probably took Noah and his family decades to complete the task as God assigned it, but all the while the people heard his message and had the opportunity to respond....not a single soul did. But their lives were not on his hands....he delivered his message, and the rest was up to them...just as it is now. No one will be able to say..."no one told me". (Matthew 24:37-39)

How could Jesus say that "few" are on the road to life if all Christians believe that they are? Those who call him their "Lord" are in for a rude shock. (Matthew 7:21-23)
What are they doing that puts them on the wrong road? Well, if the majority of "Christians" are putting other gods in the Father's place, making Jesus and the holy spirit his equals, then they are breaking his law......pure and simple. (Exodus 20:3)

None will be able to say at the judgment that they were not told....

Your response indicates that you do not understand the Word of God.

"The Word of God is living and active" (Hebrews 4:12), and this is an accord with the Apostle John (John 1:1-3, John 1:14)!

The Word is more than a prophet of God, truly, the Word is God (John 8:58, John 1:1-3, John 1:14, Isaiah 9:6). You wickedly tried to demote the Word to merely a prophet in your prior post.

Per your previous post, you have two gods because you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' near the bottom of your post about Johm 1:1. See Deuteronomy 6:4-5 quoted in my post to which you replied.

 

[Kermos]

I believe you have made a quick premature judgement and used Matt 3:15 for his anointment. His anointment is in verse 16. It occurs after verse 15 and immediately prior to Matt 3:17.

Verse 15 was to conform to scripture and for righteousness, as his example for us, to symbolize our cleaning of sin, as being as Christ and dying to our sins... and more importantly, to convey to his Father he was on-board with the Father's mission for him to pursuit to the Cross....this is why in verse 17 his Father was so pleased with him, after Christ and John executed verse 15 and his Father gave Christ his word in verse 16...and when he received his word of Spirit, IT(part of the Father) LED Christ into the wilderness....

thanks

Let's just eliminate any confusion by including the entire passage:

13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.

14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?”

15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,

17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
(Matthew 3:13-17)

Firstly, as per my prior post, the above confirms that truly Lord Jesus said “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15) prior to Jesus' baptism because after Jesus said this, Matthew recorded "then he permitted Him" (Matthew 3:15).

Jesus said "all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15), not just "righteousness", but truly "all righteousness"; therefore, your writing of "He however up to that point, never had the word or his Father's unique self-expression of spirit/power and mind within him" contradicts the Word of God.

Secondly, the Holy Spirit alights "on Jesus", not "into Jesus", but truly "on Jesus" as recorded in Matthew 3:16. At the time of his baptism, the Son of God (Luke 1:35) was already "strong in Spirit" (Luke 1:80).

Thirdly, the day of Jesus' baptism is "the day of His public appearance to Israel" (Luke 1:80), yet the word "anoint" is not mentioned in the passage of Matthew 3:13-17. The Prophet Samuel anointed David as King in a non-public place (1 Samuel 16), yet David's public appearance to Israel as king was later (2 Samuel 5); therefore, scriptural precedence exists for private anointing and public appearance.

Messiah (Anointed One) Jesus was already Messiah (Christ) when He said "all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15), so in the absence of the word "anoint" in the passage, then Jesus already existed as the Anointed One (Messiah) prior to His baptism.

Furthermore, you had the word "anoint" into the words of the Apostle Matthew, so, in effect, you present yourself as more knowledgeable than the Apostle.

Fourthly, God's expression of pleasure and love for Jesus (Matthew 3:17) is not restricted to the baptism by any indication in the passage.

You made multiple errors, including very dangerous error, in your post.

 

[Kermos]

Assuming your thing totals up to 3 people, yes.

What thing? I didn't mention thing. Let's look again.

I believe the distinct person of the Father is everlasting God (Romans 1:7).

I believe the distinct person of the Word is everlasting God (John 8:58 [Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14]).

I believe the distinct person of the Spirit is everlasting God (John 15:26).

I believe God is One (Genesis 1:26 [plurality], Isaiah 48:16 [all three mentioned]).

Do you believe the same?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What thing? I didn't mention thing. Let's look again.

I believe the distinct person of the Father is everlasting God (Romans 1:7).

I believe the distinct person of the Word is everlasting God (John 8:58 [Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14]).

I believe the distinct person of the Spirit is everlasting God (John 15:26).

I believe God is One (Genesis 1:26 [plurality], Isaiah 48:16 [all three mentioned]).

Do you believe the same?

Assuming your post totals up to 3 distinct divine persons, yes.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I kind of stopped and pondered janes mind, will, heart correlating to Father, Jesus, Spirit. It’s interesting…

 

[APAK]

Let's just eliminate any confusion by including the entire passage:


You made multiple errors, including very dangerous error, in your post.

A confused man indeed. You make no sense at all and make hay over your sheer ignorance...Do you always like to hear yourself speak and write in public?

Happy trails

 

[Aunty Jane]

But it was good of me to look it up in Greek, to see for myself. Men like to make pretzels!

And I’ve been very avidly looking through the Greek since I was told the Bibles in English are corrupted and leading me astray. (Not that I believed that, but it did make me go look.) And I found something interesting in the beginning of 1 Corinthians. In Greek it reads like this:
To the church of God being in Corinth having been sanctified in Christ Jesus called holy together with all those calling on the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ.

It reads like he’s making a distinction between the holy and those calling on Jesus Christ…it’s the “together with all those” that is interesting to me.

So I think I’m not going to be able to put the Greek down now!

That is wonderful.....
Not all Christians had “the heavenly calling”. (Hebrews 3:1) It was an anointing that gave them a strong desire to go to heaven, leaving all earthly ties behind......something not natural in human beings. We have a strong desire to live in paradise, with our loved ones, which if you think about it, most people picture heaven that way, complete with animals and beautiful scenery....but God designed us to live on earth forever. This was to be our permanent home, to enjoy God’s creation for all time to come. There was no natural cause of death in Eden. The only way to die was to disobey God’s commands.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your response indicates that you do not understand the Word of God.

Knowing the words without knowing the correct meaning is why Christendom is so hopelessly fractured. Sticking to the theme provided by an apostate church thousands of years ago is not a good idea. It means that you view scripture through a very distorted lens.

You say you know the Word of God without knowing what he taught about his God and Father, which is telling the world that you yourself lack comprehension about who he is, who he was, and what he became on his return to heaven.

"The Word of God is living and active" (Hebrews 4:12), and this is an accord with the Apostle John (John 1:1-3, John 1:14)!

This is speaking about God’s written word......his commands and precepts contained in what he provided to guide and direct us thousands of years after Christ returned to heaven to resume his position at God’s right hand.....interestingly the Holy Spirit is never said to be at his left. (Psalm 110:1-2)
“Logos” is not just a title for Jesus because of what it means in Greek. Do some research for goodness sake.

The Word is more than a prophet of God, truly, the Word is God (John 8:58, John 1:1-3, John 1:14, Isaiah 9:6). You wickedly tried to demote the Word to merely a prophet in your prior post.

Who are you to pronounce anyone “wicked”? I thought that was Jesus’ job......are you Jesus?
Climb down of your high horse and show some humility.

At Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses told the nation of Israel: “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself; him you shall heed.”

Acts 3:20-23...
“and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.”

Jesus is spoken of as a “servant”, an “apostle” a “High Priest” as well as “the Son of God”(Acts 4:17; Hebrews 3:1).....so I am not sure what your indignation is about in my reference to him as a prophet.....? He has many roles.

Per your previous post, you have two gods because you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' near the bottom of your post about Johm 1:1. See Deuteronomy 6:4-5 quoted in my post to which you replied.

Look up the meaning of “theos” (god) in Greek. It is not a word used exclusively for the God of Israel who gave his name to Moses in Exodus 3:13-15. When the divine name is removed from that text, it renders it meaningless. “The LORD” is not God’s name, but one of his titles, so it should never be confused to mean God alone. The title “Lord” (kyrios) is the Greek term for “Sir” or “Master”...one who has authority over another. Jesus rightly bore that title as one who had divine authority, “given” to him by his Father. (Matthew 28:18) God does not have to “give” authority to himself.

The Jews did not worship a triune God and Jesus was Jewish, so he would never have taught something blasphemous....he would never have contravened God’s law in Exodus 20:3.
There is one Yahweh (Deuteronomy 6:4).....one God, not three gods in one head.

 

[Wrangler]

What makes you think that Jesus needed to be God? Can you tell me that? Why would he be called "the last Adam" if he was not sent to cancel out what the 'first Adam' did. That is the whole point of redemption....one for one. All Jesus needed to be was a sinless human....not a god/man..... but a sinless human being who was equipped to pay the price

One of the many levels in which the trinity is wrong is to downplay Jesus' accomplishment. As a man, only a man, he went to the cross for us - while we were still enemies of his God! This is love and devotion that is other worldly.

It is not enough to say that Jesus sacrificed his life. He was brutalized - and then went to the slow torture device known as the cross - not for the benefit of his friends but for the benefit of his enemies, us! It brings tears to my eyes thinking about a love and devotion I cannot comprehend.

To say Jesus sacrificed his life, is to say Jesus is not and cannot be God. God cannot die as being eternal is a property or attribute of his existence. The resurrection of the man Jesus, as Acts 3, 17:31 explicitly says is our proof that God fulfilled his promise. Jesus is but the first fruits, meaning other like humans to follow. It is the greatest event in human history, the greatest event since Creation.

To reject this greatest event in human history, by claiming Jesus is God who merely had the form of a man and only appeared to die (or only a part of him died) is the tragic consequence of trinitarianism. Jesus did not die for 3 days. He died for eternity, as all death is final by its nature. Jesus was buried for 3 days before God, in his unitarian nature, acted upon the lifeless corpse, intervening supernaturally and resurrecting the man into a glorified body. Again, see Acts 3, 17:31. Wow!

Jesus sacrificed everything for us! He did not merely appear to sacrifice but actually, being God, sacrificed nothing. John 3:16 informs us that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten (created) son; it does not say that God gave himself. Word.

 

[Wrangler]

At Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses told the nation of Israel: “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself; him you shall heed.”

Deut 18:15 does not say The LORD your God will incarnate.

It is important to realize the importance of what Scripture says and the implications of what it does not say.

Deut 18:15 does not say The LORD your God will raise up for you the 2nd person of the trinity. It says the one who is raised is to be a man like Moses, not an angel, etc.

 

[Kermos]

Assuming your post totals up to 3 distinct divine persons, yes.

I am so very, very glad to read tnat you believe Jesus is uncreated!

After all, being everlasting God, by the Word of God "all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

 

[Kermos]

A confused man indeed. You make no sense at all and make hay over your sheer ignorance...Do you always like to hear yourself speak and write in public?

Happy trails

You failed to cite the Word of God in your post, so you failed to provide any scriptural response to that which God had me post to you.

Your post is a whole lot of useless "word of @APAK", which is not life.

In truth, the Word of God is life (John 14:6).

That’s a whole lot of your thoughts without the Word of God!

Your thoughts that the Son of God is removed from the Spirit of God results in your precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

A word about your thoughts. It is written, “‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written “do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar” (Proverbs 30:6), and post #202's explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Revelation 21:27) – notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

 

[Kermos]

Knowing the words without knowing the correct meaning is why Christendom is so hopelessly fractured. Sticking to the theme provided by an apostate church thousands of years ago is not a good idea. It means that you view scripture through a very distorted lens.

You say you know the Word of God without knowing what he taught about his God and Father, which is telling the world that you yourself lack comprehension about who he is, who he was, and what he became on his return to heaven.


This is speaking about God’s written word......his commands and precepts contained in what he provided to guide and direct us thousands of years after Christ returned to heaven to resume his position at God’s right hand.....interestingly the Holy Spirit is never said to be at his left. (Psalm 110:1-2)
“Logos” is not just a title for Jesus because of what it means in Greek. Do some research for goodness sake.


Who are you to pronounce anyone “wicked”? I thought that was Jesus’ job......are you Jesus?
Climb down of your high horse and show some humility.

At Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses told the nation of Israel: “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself; him you shall heed.”

Acts 3:20-23...
“and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.”

Jesus is spoken of as a “servant”, an “apostle” a “High Priest” as well as “the Son of God”(Acts 4:17; Hebrews 3:1).....so I am not sure what your indignation is about in my reference to him as a prophet.....? He has many roles.


Look up the meaning of “theos” (god) in Greek. It is not a word used exclusively for the God of Israel who gave his name to Moses in Exodus 3:13-15. When the divine name is removed from that text, it renders it meaningless. “The LORD” is not God’s name, but one of his titles, so it should never be confused to mean God alone. The title “Lord” (kyrios) is the Greek term for “Sir” or “Master”...one who has authority over another. Jesus rightly bore that title as one who had divine authority, “given” to him by his Father. (Matthew 28:18) God does not have to “give” authority to himself.

The Jews did not worship a triune God and Jesus was Jewish, so he would never have taught something blasphemous....he would never have contravened God’s law in Exodus 20:3.
There is one Yahweh (Deuteronomy 6:4).....one God, not three gods in one head.

Knowing the words without knowing the correct meaning is why your church is so fractured. Sticking to the theme provided by your apostate church is not a good idea. It means that you view scripture through a very distorted lens.

The Word is more than a prophet of God, more than High Priest, truly, the Word is God (John 8:58, John 1:1-3, John 1:14, Isaiah 9:6). In your heart, you wickedly subtracted all the declarations that Jesus is God.

Per your prior post, you have two gods because you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' near the bottom of your post about Johm 1:1. See Deuteronomy 6:4-5 quoted in my post to which you replied.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I am so very, very glad to read tnat you believe Jesus is uncreated!

After all, being everlasting God, by the Word of God "all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

Of course.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Knowing the words without knowing the correct meaning is why your church is so fractured. Sticking to the theme provided by your apostate church is not a good idea. It means that you view scripture through a very distorted lens.

The Word is more than a prophet of God, more than High Priest, truly, the Word is God (John 8:58, John 1:1-3, John 1:14, Isaiah 9:6). In your heart, you wickedly subtracted all the declarations that Jesus is God.

Per your prior post, you have two gods because you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' near the bottom of your post about Johm 1:1. See Deuteronomy 6:4-5 quoted in my post to which you replied.

Good grief.....there's an echo in here....

Repeating the same error over and over will not make it true. Jesus is not...and never has been Almighty God. Never once did he ever say that he was God....all he said is that he was "the Son of God"....which was never written as "God the Son"....ever.

To put this issue to rest once and for all, all it will take is a direct statement from either God or his Christ that they are equal parts of a three in one "godhead".....just one will do.....

The floor is yours....

 

[Kermos]

Good grief.....there's an echo in here....

Repeating the same error over and over will not make it true. Jesus is not...and never has been Almighty God. Never once did he ever say that he was God....all he said is that he was "the Son of God"....which was never written as "God the Son"....ever.

To put this issue to rest once and for all, all it will take is a direct statement from either God or his Christ that they are equal parts of a three in one "godhead".....just one will do.....

The floor is yours....

Per your post recorded here, you have two gods because you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' near the bottom of your post about Johm 1:1. You are in grave sin. God is One, see Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Per your post recorded here, you have two gods because you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' near the bottom of your post about Johm 1:1. You are in grave sin. God is One, see Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

Perhaps you need to go and do some Greek word studies......one can be “divine” without being “deity”.
Being “a god” (theos) in Greek, does not make you into “The God” (ho theos) who is Yahweh.

If you cannot address my posts without repeating the same tied response, then please don’t bother.

 

[Kermos]

Perhaps you need to go and do some Greek word studies......one can be “divine” without being “deity”.
Being “a god” (theos) in Greek, does not make you into “The God” (ho theos) who is Yahweh.

If you cannot address my posts without repeating the same tied response, then please don’t bother.

@Aunty Jane, when you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' about Johm 1:1 in your post as recorded here, you did illegal grammar and illogical linguistics and antichrist writing.

Firstly, you used the indefinite article "a" for god, yet you contradict yourself when you omitted the indefinite article "a" for divine. You applied illegal grammar.

Secondly, both the words "divine" and "god" are nouns and synonyms. You applied illogical linguistics by attempting to make these words convey different concepts (see first point).

Thirdly, you have two gods because you wrote '"a god" regarding Jesus while you hold that He in not God as represented in the Old Testament; therefore, you have Jesus as "other gods before" YHWH (Exodus 20:3), so you are in grave sin with your antichrist writing. Truly, YHWH God is One: Father, Son, and Spirit (see scripturally rich post #185).

Fourthly, we can use a noun without an article for qualitative indications, that is, to indicate inherent qualities of the noun; therefore, the Word contains the qualities of being God per John 1:1 thus "the Word was God" is the accurate rendering. This is Christian.

The testimony of the Apostles is: Jesus is God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14, John 5:18, John 8:58, John 20:28, Isaiah 9:6, 2 Peter 1:1).

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Aunty Jane, when you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' about Johm 1:1 in your post as recorded here, you did illegal grammar and illogical linguistics and antichrist writing.

Firstly, you used the indefinite article "a" for god, yet you contradict yourself when you omitted the indefinite article "a" for divine. You applied illegal grammar.

Secondly, both the words "divine" and "god" are nouns and synonyms. You applied illogical linguistics by attempting to make these words convey different concepts (see first point).

Thirdly, you have two gods because you wrote '"a god" regarding Jesus while you hold that He in not God as represented in the Old Testament; therefore, you have Jesus as "other gods before" YHWH (Exodus 20:3), so you are in grave sin with your antichrist writing. Truly, YHWH God is One: Father, Son, and Spirit (see scripturally rich post #185).

Fourthly, we can use a noun without an article for qualitative indications, that is, to indicate inherent qualities of the noun; therefore, the Word contains the qualities of being God per John 1:1 thus "the Word was God" is the accurate rendering. This is Christian.

The testimony of the Apostles is: Jesus is God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14, John 5:18, John 8:58, John 20:28, Isaiah 9:6, 2 Peter 1:1).

You really don’t listen, do you....?
The Greek word for “god” is “theos” which Strongs primary definition is basically.....”any gods or goddesses”

It can mean any god, a mighty one. Satan is called “theos” so it is not a word used exclusively for Yahweh. Jesus said that human Judges in Israel were called “gods” by Yahweh himself because they had his authority. (John 10:34-36)

Jesus is “a god” in the Greek sense of that word. Because they were polytheistic, the Greeks had no word for a single god who was nameless. The Jews had adopted a tradition of not uttering the divine name and hence the Jewish God was simply referred to as “the God” as we do in English when we refer to a well known personage. Tell someone that Brad Pitt is invited to a function you are attending and what will they ask”......”THE Brad Pitt?”

John 1:1 in Greek doesn’t say what the English translation renders. There are two gods in that verse but only one is “ho theos” (THE God) Yahweh.

 

[Aunty Jane]

BTW @Kermos I am still waiting for an answer to this request.....

To put this issue to rest once and for all, all it will take is a direct statement from either God or his Christ that they are equal parts of a three in one "godhead".....just one will do.....

The floor is yours....