A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Wrangler]

I would though be really sure of what it means for someone even Christ, to be divine.

Sime argue to be divine is to be a deity. Nonsense. To be divine means to be ‘of God’ or more generally, ‘of heaven’ as opposed to ‘of Earth.’

And I do appreciate your distinction that Jesus had divinity in him. But we both know the word games people play.

 

[Wrangler]

Most of your points make sense in a large degree ..on fire again at the start of the New Year...Bless you

That’s how you know the trinitarians won’t touch it with a 10-foot pole.

 

[Kermos]

You have a mouthful here....
I would though be really sure of what it means for someone even Christ, to be divine.

I would just point out that Christ had divinity residing within him as the divine 'word/logos,' AND Spirit upon his anointing, after his baptism, although I would not go as far as saying he himself was divine. Today he still shares this same divine word as the Word/logos of God today.

We as believers possess a part of the Spirit of God, the spirit of truth, that is the same as Christ's spirit, and we do partake of this divine spirit or power today, although we are not actually divine because of it. And of course we never have the divine word of God as Christ does today.
Technically only YHWH is the source of divinity as the one true Deity. He shares his divinity, although he does not share his well source, only his spigot to his family.

The touchstone scripture for all Trinitarians is John 1:1-18. And they ignore not just the local context of it all, they also continue to ignore the wider level contextual view too. All they usually 'see' is John 1:1-2 and 14. And when they get fixated on these verses it's like them reading a running marquee or rolling news line at the bottom of the TV screen.....as they read it as "......John 1:1-2 says Jesus is God.........therefore John 1:14 says Jesus is God......therefore John 1:1-2 says Jesus is God......." Circular logic at its best!

Most of your points make sense in a large degree ..on fire again at the start of the New Year...Bless you

"The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).

"The child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts until the day of his public appearance to Israel" (Luke 1:80).

Jesus had the Holy Spirit prior to "the day of his public appearance to Israel", that is, before the Christ's baptism.

The Spirit alighted UPON Jesus at His baptism for it is written "after being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him" (Matthew 3:16), so this indicates that Jesus is Messiah (John 1:31-32).

 

[APAK]

"The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).

"The child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts until the day of his public appearance to Israel" (Luke 1:80).

Jesus had the Holy Spirit prior to "the day of his public appearance to Israel", that is, before the Christ's baptism.

The Spirit alighted UPON Jesus at His baptism for it is written "after being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him" (Matthew 3:16), so this indicates that Jesus is Messiah (John 1:31-32).

I surmise you are asking me if there is difference, since Christ was born, and when he was anointed in with his new spiritual identity from his Father? Yes, there is a big difference.

Christ, up until his anointing by his Father's spirit, possessed the spirit of truth, knowledge and wisdom at least. We as believers have some gifts of the spirit. He however up to that point, never had the word or his Father's unique self-expression of spirit/power and mind within him. The anointment act added this spiritual awareness of his Father's presence in a very real way as if he was now possessed by his Father completely. Christ could now see and do as the Father showed him, to perform miracles and speak his words...

 

[Kermos]

Let me explain again what I believe, and then you can clarify where you believe differently.

I believe the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Spirit are all ONE God. 3 different persons, 1 God. They are unified in one heart, one mind, one will, etc.

I do not believe that they are one via metaphysical means as stated in the Athanasiain Creed, and hence do not agree with the creedal definition of "the trinity".

I do not believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all 1 person. I don't believe that it's Christ saying about himself "this is my beloved son".

I believe the distinct person of the Father is everlasting God (Romans 1:7).

I believe the distinct person of the Word is everlasting God (John 8:58 [Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14]).

I believe the distinct person of the Spirit is everlasting God (John 15:26).

I believe God is One (Genesis 1:26 [plurality], Isaiah 48:16 [all three mentioned]).

Do you believe the same?

 

[Brakelite]

Luke 3:38 - "the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." Adam was not the same nature as God.

That's why we don't worship him I guess huh. Even though Adam was made in God's image right? But Adam wasn't begotten of God. Good didn't say of Adam, in a loud audible voice that thundered, "this is My Son. Hear ye Him".

According to the meaning of the Greek word "theos" a personage can be "divine" (of divine origin or given divine authorization) and not be deity....."theos" is any "god-like" one...

That's meaningless. Elohim םיהִלאֱ is used in conjunction with the name הוָֹהיְ. Jehovah. Elohim could be used to mean angel. And that's the Hebrew. Since when has the Greek been scripture? You can interpret context using language to suit your
predisposition to deny the Son His rightful place in the Godhead. But it doesn't change Who He is. He's God's begotten son. Not created.

 

[Wrangler]

But Adam wasn't begotten of God

LOL. Who then, begat Adam?

 

[Kermos]

I surmise you are asking me if there is difference, since Christ was born, and when he was anointed in with his new spiritual identity from his Father? Yes, there is a big difference.

Christ, up until his anointing by his Father's spirit, possessed the spirit of truth, knowledge and wisdom at least. We has believers have some gifts of the spirit. He however up to that point, never had the word or his Father's unique self-expression of spirit/power and mind within him. The anointment act added this spiritual awareness of his Father's presence in a very real way as if he was now possessed by his Father completely. Christ could now see and do as the Father showed him, to perform miracles and speak his words...

No, @APAK, I asked you no questions.

I proclaimed scripture to you that Jesus is the Holy Child is the Son of God at conception (Luke 1:35) and the Holy Child is strong in Spirit (Luke 1:80) and all this before the Spirit of God descended as a dove and alighted on Him (Matthew 3:16) and the alighting showed that Jesus is the Christ (John 1:31-32).

The Holy Child is inseparable from being the Son of God is inseparable from having the Spirit of God!

You second paragraph is quite in error because Jesus says to John prior to baptism:

Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” (Matthew 3:15)

The baptism of Jesus is God's will, and the Holy Child was already declaring and doing God's will prior to baptism by stating those pleasing words in the hearing of the Father.

In fact, the Father publicly proclaims, after Jesus said those words and was baptized, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased” (Matthew 3:17).

 

[Kermos]

LOL. Who then, begat Adam?

@Backlit, I apologize in advance for stepping in, but Wrangler asked a question that seemed to me to need an immediate answer.

Adam was formed by God from the dust of the ground (Genesis 2:7).

Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Power of God (Luke 1:35).

 

[Brakelite]

That’s how you know the trinitarians won’t touch it with a 10-foot pole.

Not everyone is a trinitarian, yet willing to defend the deity of Christ until He comes.

 

[APAK]

No, @APAK, I asked you no questions.

I proclaimed scripture to you that Jesus is the Holy Child is the Son of God at conception (Luke 1:35) and the Holy Child is strong in Spirit (Luke 1:80) and all this before the Spirit of God descended as a dove and alighted on Him (Matthew 3:16) and the alighting showed that Jesus is the Christ (John 1:31-32).

The Holy Child is inseparable from being the Son of God is inseparable from having the Spirit of God!

You second paragraph is quite in error because Jesus says to John prior to baptism:

Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” (Matthew 3:15)

The baptism of Jesus is God's will, and the Holy Child was already declaring and doing God's will prior to baptism by stating those pleasing words in the hearing of the Father.

In fact, the Father publicly proclaims, after Jesus said those words and was baptized, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased” (Matthew 3:17).

I believe you have made a quick premature judgement and used Matt 3:15 for his anointment. His anointment is in verse 16. It occurs after verse 15 and immediately prior to Matt 3:17.

Verse 15 was to conform to scripture and for righteousness, as his example for us, to symbolize our cleaning of sin, as being as Christ and dying to our sins... and more importantly, to convey to his Father he was on-board with the Father's mission for him to pursuit to the Cross....this is why in verse 17 his Father was so pleased with him, after Christ and John executed verse 15 and his Father gave Christ his word in verse 16...and when he received his word of Spirit, IT(part of the Father) LED Christ into the wilderness....

thanks

 

[Brakelite]

LOL. Who then, begat Adam?

He was begotten???

 

[Aunty Jane]

You err about the linguistics of John 17:22.

Jesus has Christ's disciples being one as in one assembly or family or flock because Christ is talking about mere persons with "that they may be one" thus including Peter and John and Matthew and Mary and Martha and so on.

The Christ'a words of 'we are one" includes the Father and the Son.



The Jewish leaders did think Jesus made Himself out to be equal with God.

The Apostle John flat out declares the Apostle John's belief that Lord Jesus "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).



"The Word became flesh" (John 1:14).

Behold, @Aunty Jane, the Word of God became truly man. See Lord Jesus, Truly God and Truly Man (thread on this site).

In linguistics, we can use a noun without a definite article or an indefinite article for qualitative indications.

The Greek word "kyrios" (Lord) does not appear in John 1:1, so you think you know more than the Holy Spirit inspired Apostle John by way of your somehow adding kyrios into John 1:1 near the bottom of your post.

You have two gods because you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' near the bottom of your post about Johm 1:1. See Deuteronomy 6:4-5 quoted in my post to which you replied.

The Word of God, Jesus Christ, is the action of God for "all things came into being through" the Word, "and apart from" the Word "nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3). "Let there be light" (Genesis 1:3).

Lord Jesus is the everlasting Word of God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).

This response indicates to me that you did not comprehend a word that the scriptures themselves said to you...nor have you any comprehension of the Greek words that are mistranslated.
But that is OK....Noah preached to the people of his day, only to meet with opposition and ridicule, but he preached anyway....do you know why? With the dimensions of the ark, he would have known that few if any who were going to take his warning seriously, yet he 'preached righteousness' to those unrighteous people for the whole time he was constructing the only place of safety there would be when God delivered his judgment upon them. Not one of them listened, but as the water swirled around them, who could say that God did not warn them of what he was going to do?

It probably took Noah and his family decades to complete the task as God assigned it, but all the while the people heard his message and had the opportunity to respond....not a single soul did. But their lives were not on his hands....he delivered his message, and the rest was up to them...just as it is now. No one will be able to say..."no one told me". (Matthew 24:37-39)

How could Jesus say that "few" are on the road to life if all Christians believe that they are? Those who call him their "Lord" are in for a rude shock. (Matthew 7:21-23)
What are they doing that puts them on the wrong road? Well, if the majority of "Christians" are putting other gods in the Father's place, making Jesus and the holy spirit his equals, then they are breaking his law......pure and simple. (Exodus 20:3)

None will be able to say at the judgment that they were not told....

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I believe the distinct person of the Father is everlasting God (Romans 1:7).

I believe the distinct person of the Word is everlasting God (John 8:58 [Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14]).

I believe the distinct person of the Spirit is everlasting God (John 15:26).

I believe God is One (Genesis 1:26 [plurality], Isaiah 48:16 [all three mentioned]).

Do you believe the same?

Assuming your thing totals up to 3 people, yes.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Hey, at least our mistake was foretold!

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's meaningless. Elohim םיהִלאֱ is used in conjunction with the name הוָֹהיְ. Jehovah. Elohim could be used to mean angel. And that's the Hebrew. Since when has the Greek been scripture? You can interpret context using language to suit your
predisposition to deny the Son His rightful place in the Godhead. But it doesn't change Who He is. He's God's begotten son. Not created.

For the life of me I cannot comprehend this notion that Jesus had to be God......where does it say that the Almighty has multiple personality disorder? (two or three, doesn't matter) He is the same single entity that was worshipped by his people, and also by his son.....who still worships his God and Father even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)

What makes you think that Jesus needed to be God? Can you tell me that? Why would he be called "the last Adam" if he was not sent to cancel out what the 'first Adam' did. That is the whole point of redemption....one for one. All Jesus needed to be was a sinless human....not a god/man..... but a sinless human being who was equipped to pay the price.....since no other human was sinless, this explains why Jesus had to come down from heaven to lay down his life to get everlasting life back for us. His sacrifice buys back the life we all lost in Eden.

Revelation 21:2-4 is the end result....this is what John saw in his vision....imagine....
"And I saw the holy city—the new Jerusalem—descending out of heaven from God, made ready like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Look! The residence of God is among human beings. He will live among them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will not exist any more—or mourning, or crying, or pain, for the former things have ceased to exist.” (NET)

This is God's Kingdom with Christ and his "bride" bringing the blessings of the Kingdom to mankind here on earth....after the cleansing of this planet of wickedness and all who practice it, what a different world it will be.

"The former things" like sickness, suffering and even death, will then cease to exist....nothing will spoil the life that God had planned for us all along. What Jehovah starts, he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11) He has no time constraints. The object lesson that we have endured along with the Creator since the rebellion in the garden, will soon be over and will have created precedents for all time to come, ensuring that no rebel will ever be able to disrupt God's purpose again...either in heaven or on earth.

I for one think its brilliant!!

 

[tigger 2]

For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Hey, at least our mistake was foretold!

....................
Many names in the Hebrew OT are praises to or comments about God Himself. Unfortunately, Most Hebrew names which are comprised of two or more words lack verbs, prepositions, etc. These were understood by those who lived at that time, but modern translators must fill in these words as they see fit.

The name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:
".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [1]“quick to the plunder; [2] swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [1]“For unto us a child is born; [2] unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a few trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God. But, of course, most trinitarian translators insist on only the KJV version of Is. 9:6 and ignore anything else.

 

[Aunty Jane]

1. Did Jesus call Himself "I AM"? Absolutely

Yes he said it many times..."I am the way the truth and the life"....."I am the bread that came down from heaven"...."I am the son of God".....in none of those references was Jesus claiming to be God. In fact the last on would be contradictory because he would be saying "I Am God, I am the Son of God". So which was he?

2. Did the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob call Himself "I AM"? Absolutely

Yes, but not claiming that this was the meaning of his name....he just said "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" it was simply a statement of fact, not a declaration that "I AM" was his name.

The meaning of God's name is what the Jewish Tanakh says....Exodus 3:14...
"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

"I am" is a very common phrase....
Every time you say "I am" are you claiming to be God?......Neither was Jesus.

3. Does Scripture show that the same person who appeared to Moses in the burning bush was "the Angel of the LORD"? Absolutely

Was Jesus an angel of the Lord? By all indications he was the LOGOS (the one who spoke for God from the beginning) Any time an angel spoke in the name of Jehovah, it was probably Jesus in his pre-human existence. The three angels that appeared to Moses at Mamre...one spoke for Jehovah, so again his representative....his spokesman.

There are other passages in the OT where the Angel of the LORD is treated as God and worshipped. And Jesus told the Jews "Before Abraham was I AM" (John 8:58) and "

if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24) Note: "he" is in italics and should not have been inserted, while "AM" should have been capitalized as shown below.
International Standard Version
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you'll die in your sins."
Jubilee Bible 2000
Therefore I said unto you that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye do not believe that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

Oh dear...you show absolutely no understanding of the Greek text. There was no upper or lower case in Greek, nor was there any punctuation...these were left to the discretion of the translators.....and if they happened to be trinitarians, as most of them were, then this is where license was taken and errors crept in. You are simply repeating their errors.

Try doing some Greek word studies.....the English is letting you down badly.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

....................
Many names in the Hebrew OT are praises to or comments about God Himself. Unfortunately, Most Hebrew names which are comprised of two or more words lack verbs, prepositions, etc. These were understood by those who lived at that time, but modern translators must fill in these words as they see fit.

The name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:
".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [1]“quick to the plunder; [2] swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [1]“For unto us a child is born; [2] unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a few trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God. But, of course, most trinitarian translators insist on only the KJV version of Is. 9:6 and ignore anything else.

I don’t see how they came up with that at all. Here is the Greek. The only way you can come up with that is IF you go into it with with bias.


hoti
ὅτι
For
C
3813


paidion
παιδίον
a child
N.ASN
1080


egennēthē
ἐγεννήθη
was born
V.API3S
1473


egō
ἐγὼ
to us;
RP.NS
5207


huios
υἱὸς
a son
N.NSM
1325


edothē
ἐδόθη
was given
V.API3S
1473


hēmin
ἡμῖν,
to us,
RP.DP
3739


hou
οὗ
of whom
RR.GSM
3588


hē
ἡ
the
RA.NSF
746


archē
ἀρχὴ
sovereignty
N.NSF
1096


egenēthē
ἐγενήθη
became
V.API3S
1909


epi
ἐπὶ
upon
P
3588


hē
ἡ

RA.NSF
5606
1473


ōmou
autou
ὤμου
αὐτοῦ,
his shoulder;
N.GSM
RD.GSM
2532


kai
καὶ
and
C
2564


kaleitai
καλεῖται
is called
V.PMI3S
3588


hē
ἡ

RA.NSF
3686
1473


onoma
autou
ὄνομα
αὐτοῦ,
his name,
N.ASN
RD.GSM
3173


megalēs
μεγάλης
of great
A.GSF
1012


boulēs
βουλῆς
counsel
N.GSF
32


angelos
ἄγγελος·
Messenger,
N.NSM
2298




wonderful,

4825




counselor,

2316




God

2478




mighty,

1850.1




potentate,

758


archontas
ἄρχοντας,
ruler
N.APM
1515


eirēnēn
εἰρήνην
of peace,
N.ASF
3962




father

3588


hē
ἡ
of the
RA.NSF
3195




about to be

165




eon.

71
1063


axō
gar
ἄξω
γὰρ
For I will bring
V.FAI1S
X
1515


eirēnēn
εἰρήνην
peace
N.ASF
1909


epi
ἐπὶ
upon
P
3588


hē
ἡ
the
RA.NSF
758


archontas
ἄρχοντας,
rulers,
N.APM
2532


kai
καὶ
and
C
5198.1-1473




his health.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But it was good of me to look it up in Greek, to see for myself. Men like to make pretzels!

And I’ve been very avidly looking through the Greek since I was told the Bibles in English are corrupted and leading me astray. (Not that I believed that, but it did make me go look.) And I found something interesting in the beginning of 1 Corinthians. In Greek it reads like this:
To the church of God being in Corinth having been sanctified in Christ Jesus called holy together with all those calling on the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ.

It reads like he’s making a distinction between the holy and those calling on Jesus Christ…it’s the “together with all those” that is interesting to me.

So I think I’m not going to be able to put the Greek down now!