A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

The Russellians are literary fools in an incapable state to Truthfully (John 14:6) and Spiritually discern grammar in the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14); moreover, the Russellians (Watchtower Society people and similar types) prove their linguistic deceptions about the Christ in their writings, and the following items display their wickedly broken translation efforts and evil interpretations of scripture

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

@Aunty Jane

The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

You take Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

You impose your evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

You serve your father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

@keithr

You foolishly deny the context that Lord Jesus establishes the focus of "who God is" in the conversation recorded in John 8:31-5i at the outset (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #609 in this thread) - you quote the passage's conversation about "who God is" which contains a climactic conclusion then you proceeded to lie about the selfsame passage in your claim that the passage is not about "who God is".

@Pierac


You, the klutz of deception, attempt to dilute the meaning of aionas/ages/forever in Luke 1:33, but you linguistically fail (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #610 in this thread) - for truly the angel Gabriel emphasizes "forever" with "no end" within the proclamation "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).


You, the klutz of deception, attempt to dilute the meaning of Elohim meaning God in Genesis 1:26, yet the plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God")
(as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #540 with referenced #457 in this thread) - for the Word of God clearly indicates God created man in the likeness of God, not angels, but truly the likeness of God alone in "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God" (Genesis 5:1), so truthfully Elohim in Genesis 1 26 indicates the plurality within YHWH God being the person of the Father and the person of the Word and the person of the Spirit (Isaiah 48:16).

You, the klutz of deception, attempt to redefine the Greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537, ἐκ, ek, from, from out of) to your delusional meaning "of" white you adamantly try to demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #620 in this thread), so your misunderstanding of the Greek language is public for all the see.

Therefore, all of you with the proofs above are dangerously unreliable sources.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Your own translations expose your religion as false. The works through the centuries expose them as false.
The Israelite religious leaders rejected Jesus because they were apostocised when he showed up. They however never broke Gods laws except when it came to Jesus. A man had 7 days to build a defense from his arrest. They tried Jesus the first night out of hatred. But--They still knew exactly who the true God was then and today. Not a trinity. He never was and never will be. Jesus was not with the religion that came out of Rome.
Your religion allowed their young men to kill the members of your own religion( allies) for Adolf Hitler= pure darkness. It takes throwing Jesus away to accomplish that.

I am not of a religion bro. Catholic means one is a Christian. not a sect.

The Jews broke the Law, no one can keep the Law, but Jesus put the Law under Grace.

Hitler was a good man as far as the OT goes in mans works, and as to the Talmud whore, because Hitler was doing everything that the Talmud teaches, but maybe not going that far in fact.
When I first started looking into Hitler I found that the Nazis were just so much like the Jews of the Talmud, they was like railway tracks following one another in everything.
The leadership of the OT Jews were just like the Nazis, in that they knew just how to play the majority of people for fools ! and get them to dance to their tune.
Just remember all of what Jesus pointed out about them OT Jews leading the people astray and who they truly were murders from the beginning from their Father of lies !
They had it all wrong as they were lead by Satan, because they did not know God the Farther in fact as the Bible tells us so, they only knew "of" the God at best, but they did not know God in fact, because as any worthy Christian knows, that No one comes to the Father but only through his only begotten Son ! See that bro ! The Jews did not know God ! They are a Mans works religion. They are a Religion of Man. not God !
The Law was for to lead them to God in fact.
The Jews were lost bro ! they failed because they did not know God ! just as Christianity has been and is failing, because they have cast Christ Jesus aside for Mans works BS. For They do not preach on Christ Jesus at all in fact and that's why they have been failing in loosing the people to God from the 60 on in droves, so that our Nations now have lost their way ! We have Satanist running our Nations, just look at Jo Biden he is clearly a full on Satanist.

Anyone who looks to idolising the Jews of today is a total Anti-Christ ! such people are who are idolising Anti-Christ in fact, for what ! The reason why, is because they know not God, because they know not Christ Jesus in fact !

 

[Kermos]

You are like a broken record...give it up. You have nothing to say but what you have already said a hundred times. Will repeating it make it any more valid ? Only a fool keeps repeating the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome.

Believe whatever you like but for goodness sake, say something else because you have been shown clearly that John 8:58 has nothing to do with God’s name in Exodus 3:14-15.

I won’t respond to you again. Your knowledge of the Bible is rather pathetic IMO.

You call the Word of God a broken record for I cite and quote the Word of God to you.

The Word of God says "My Word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me void, without accomplishing what I desire" (Isaiah 55:11). You fail to understand this Truth (John 14:6).

Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Only ~ "only," wow ~ that the Jews wanted to stone Him for blasphemy:

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.' So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple."

No, no suggestion at all. My goodness.


Right, because they needed ask no question. They knew exactly what He was saying.

Grace and peace to all.

Well said, PinSeeker! The Jews response is reminiscent of "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

In the case of "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), Lord Jesus straight declares Himself to be YHWH God!

@tigger 2, let's just examine your heart's treasure of:

Not only is the wording of Ex. 3:14 not "I am" but "I will be" in the Hebrew OT and "the being" in the Septuagint version, but everywhere else in Moses' writings the Hebrew (ehyeh) is rendered "I will be."

We know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.

It was even forbidden for others to say that Jesus was the Messiah - John 9:22. And, in fact, that was obviously why Stephen was stoned to death.

At Acts 7:55-58, Stephen looked up into heaven “and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of man [synonymous with the Messiah, not God] standing at the right hand of God.’ But they [the Jews] ... cast him out of the city, and stoned him.” - RSV.

Stephen was stoned, not because he claimed to be God, nor because he claimed Jesus was God (quite the contrary, in fact, as his quoted statement clearly shows: Jesus “standing at the right hand of God”) but because he was proclaiming Jesus to be the Messiah (Christ)! See The NIV Study Bible footnotes for Acts 7:56 and Mk 8:31.

Therefore, when Jesus claimed, at John 8:58, to have lived long before his first century human existence, the Jews could have perceived him as a false prophet, or a self-proclaimed “wizard,” or, more likely, as one claiming to be the Christ or Messiah (the Son of Man) and tried to stone him because of that.

The words ego eimi formed a phrase that was in very common use by first century Christians and Jews and in New Testament scriptures. It was certainly not understood (by Jews or Christians) as declaring one’s Godhood! If it could have been understood that way, we can be sure the Jews would have never applied it to themselves (as they did so frequently)!

Notice, for example, how the former blind man (John 9:9) actually identifies himself by saying “ego eimi,” but none of the other Jews present, even for a moment, understood him to be claiming to be Jehovah!

And Jesus earlier (John 6:20) clearly identified himself by saying to his frightened disciples: ego eimi. None of his disciples considered that to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. In fact, most trinitarian-translated Bibles render Jesus’ words identifying himself here as “It is I.” E.g., ASV; AMP; CJB; DARBY; DRA; ESV; GNT; GNV; HCSB; ISV; JB; KJV; KJ21; TLB; MEV; MLB; MOUNCE; NAB; NASB; NCV; NEB; NET; NIV; NKJV; NLV; NRSV; REB; RSV; WEB; and WE.

The Gospel writers have clearly shown Jesus applying the term ego eimi to himself and meaning “I am the Christ.” Mark 13:6 shows Jesus saying, “I am he [literally just ego eimi alone, ‘I AM’]” - NEB. The parallel account at Luke 21:8 agrees. But the other parallel account by Matthew shows what Jesus actually meant by the “absolute” ego eimi in those parallel accounts of Mark and Luke: “I am the Messiah” - Matt. 24:5 - NEB.

Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).

Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?

But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!

“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.

C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”

There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!

But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”

In the same way, John near the end of his Gospel wrote that his work was written down that you may believe that Jesus is (not God, but) the Christ the son of God". - John 20:31.
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

The old debunked and worn out and evil Watchtower Society Exodus 3:14 delusion is presented by you. You people do not understand Hebrew, then you deceive each other and you deceive yourself (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular in Hebrew).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where your contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKah - the Hebrew Bible, and here is the full of Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now behold these other TaNaKah scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[keithr]

Is it your contention that 1914 is the year for Revelation 6:4?

No, my understanding from Scripture is that event is still future.

 

[keithr]

You wrote "But Jesus was simply saying that he had been alive from before the birth of Abraham" and you wrote "You cannot deduce that from Jesus' words" with respect to "JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time", yet your two clauses contradict each other with respect to the ever living Jesus proclaiming this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58). The Truth according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

The only evidence you have given that Jesus has always existed is your assumption that Jesus is declaring himself to be God YHVH in John 8:58. However, he is not claiming that, and you have presented no other evidence that supports your claim! As I said, Jesus claiming he had been alive from before Abraham was born is nowhere near claiming to have always been alive.

Resurrected Christians are NOT everlasting going back in time.

Correct!

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

Indeed. Nowhere is it claimed that Jesus was from everlasting.

 

[Kermos]

The outset of the conversation is verse 12:

(12) Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Jesus also said, while preaching the sermon on the mount, Matthew 5:14 (WEB):

(14) You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can’t be hidden.


I've tried to enlighten you, but you can't receive it, so I will say no more on this subject. I shake the dust off my feet.

Luke 9:5
(5) As many as don’t receive you, when you depart from that city, shake off even the dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
Matthew 10:14-15
(14) Whoever doesn’t receive you, nor hear your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
(15) Most certainly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Hmm, your writing there makes me wonder why you started quoting with John 8:31, not John 8:12, when you quoted the conversation from John 8:31-58 just a couple of posts ago (as shown in post #609 in this thread).

The Apostle John made a distinction with "As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him" (John 8:30) thus indicating the end of a stage of the recorded conversation in John 8:12-30.

Immediately afterward, John wrote "So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31-32) thus indicating the entrance into a new phase of the recorded conversation in John 8:31-58 with a climactic revelation in John 8:59.

Truly, Jesus establishes the focus of "who God is" in the conversation at the outset, and the Word of God, being Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14), says "“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31-32) - the Word of God, being Jesus the Truth (John 14:6), speaks about people being in the Word of God.

In effect, in John 8:31-32, Jesus opens with "the Word of God will make you free", and only God can rightly make a person free from the bondage of sin. This is about "who God is" working in men.

The conversation contains talk of God the Father in Heaven within several verses inside the John 8:31-58 passage, such as "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father" (John 8:38).

But, talk of other fathers occured as well, for example the Jews said "Abraham is our father" (John 8:39). Another example is Jesus telling the Jews and people that disbelieve in Jesus' diety that "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

And, here is some, but not all, of the talk about "who God is" with the Word of God saying "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God" (John 8:47) for God opens the ears of the deaf as part of "who God is".

Here is more about "who God is" when the Word of God says that Jesus is everlasting God with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), and the Jews "picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

The Jews had stones to stone Jesus immediately after Jesus says "I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Therefore, in the John 8:31-58 passage, Jesus can refer to Himself as Man and as God - just as He can refer to God as His Father and He can refer to Himself as God with "I AM" (John 8:58), yes the Word of God is YHWH God with "I AM" (Exodus 3:14).

YOU LIED ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD FOR HE SAYS "I AM" (JOHN 8:58, EXODUS 3:14).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

I havent been exposed as a liar. I presented facts. The problem is you do not know Jesus that is why you wont believe he is the speaker at Proverbs 8 because you have believed errors. I seriously doubt any trying to actually serve God lies intentionally, they can however make errors, especially since in 34,000 different religions claiming to be christian, all with different truths on certain matters are erring. Do you believe lies are taught intentionally? Because i believe trinity scholars know 100% they arent teaching truth. Truth has become abundant here in these last days-Daniel 12:4--They know 100% Jesus is not called Ho Theos. They as well know the Israelites served a single being God named-YHWH(Jehovah) The Israelites served the true God.

@Keiw

Truly, you have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are proven a liar and a dangerously unreliable source.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

................................
Gen. 26:3 - Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; - KJV and more than 45 others.

Genesis 26:3 - Bible Gateway Kermos had to go all the way to the bottom of the list of the Bibles in this link to find one which ‘proves’ his point.

Gen. 31:3 (same as above)
Ex. 3:12 (all but two say “I will [shall] be.”
Ex. 4:12 (only Young’s uses “I am.”
Ex. 4:15 (only Young’s uses “I am.”
Deut. 31:23 (only Young’s in this list)

Needless to say, the KJV uses “I will be” in every one of these places. Does anyone really wonder why they used “I am” at only at Ex. 3:14?

I think I already exposed the fallacy that the Septuagint uses "I am" as part of what God said what he was to be called at Ex. 3:14.

Nevertheless here is a more complete study of Ex. 3:14:
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 3

Your contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:14).

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where your contrivance leads.

In Genesis 26:3, "sojourn" (gur) is an imperfect verb indicating present and future, and "I am" (eyheh) is an imperfect verb indicating present and future; therefore, "sojourn" and "I am" are in grammatical agreement. Your contrivance of "I will be" is incomplete for Genesis 26:3.

Furthermore, Genesis 26:3, Genesis 31:3, Exodus 3:12, Exodus 4:12, Exodus 4:15, and Deuteronomy 31:23 are Truthfully (John 14:6) and accurately translated as "I am".

Lord Jesus uses "I AM" (John 8:58) to refer back to the whole passage about God's name and work in Exodus 3:14-15. Christ's words of "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) applies to both the Hebrew Exodus 3:14 and the Septuagint Exodus 3:14.

You are deceived by the evil one to think that "I will be" is the translation for Exodus 3:14.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

The only evidence you have given that Jesus has always existed is your assumption that Jesus is declaring himself to be God YHVH in John 8:58. However, he is not claiming that, and you have presented no other evidence that supports your claim! As I said, Jesus claiming he had been alive from before Adbraham was born is nowhere near claiming to have always been alive.


Correct!


Indeed. Nowhere is it claimed that Jesus was from everlasting.

You bellyache that Jesus doesn't say what Jesus says! You claim that Jesus was NOT before Abraham was - at some point.

You convey that Jesus was created; on the other hand, Jesus conveys that Jesus is uncreated.

You cannot specify a date that Jesus was purportedly created, and you cannot because Lord Jesus declares that He is everlasting YHWH God - the Christ's endlessly valuable words follow.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[keithr]

You claim that Jesus was NOT before Abraham was - at some point.

Your logic is flawed. If I was to say "I have been alive from before my grandson was born", that would not mean that I was claiming to have always been alive going back to the beginning of time. You would be wrong to believe that. Similarly, it is not logical to deduce that Jesus had been alive from the beginning of time.

Jesus said, in prayer to God, John 17:3 (WEB):

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

 

[Kermos]

Your logic is flawed. If I was to say "I have been alive from before my grandson was born", that would not mean that I was claiming to have always been alive going back to the beginning of time. You would be wrong to believe that. Similarly, it is not logical to deduce that Jesus had been alive from the beginning of time.

Jesus said, in prayer to God, John 17:3 (WEB):
(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

The thoughts of your heart are immediately illogical. Your grandson example is impossible for you as a mere human.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Regarding John 17:3, see the following.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8), and John 17:3 applies here.

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

You have proved yourself a liar again!

 

[keithr]

The thoughts of your heart are immediately illogical. Your grandson example is impossible for you as a mere human.

I think with my mind, not my heart, and my grandson example is totally logical - it's even common sense!

If I had a grandson then I would have to have been alive before he was born, in order to be the father of my grandson's father. It's not difficult to understand that! If you can't understand my grandson example then you are clearly an idiot or you don't understand simple English. Further discussion with you is therefore futile, and I won't waste any more of my time in discussion with you after this post.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

You're like a stuck record, continually repeating the same thing over and over again.

Regarding John 17:3, see the following.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

So you don't believe Jesus' (or God's) own word's, which is what John 17:3 is?

Ok, I'll address each of those references:
Luke 1: (WEB):

(31) Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and give birth to a son, and will call his name ‘Jesus.’
(32) He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father, David,
(33) and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end to his Kingdom.”​

There is no evidence there that Jesus is God. It says that the man Jesus will be called God's son.

Luke 1:35 says Jesus is the Son of God, not that he is God. (Luke 1:35 - The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.)

John 20:28 - Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” See The Trinity Delusion: John 20:28. Here's the conclusion from that web page:

Since there is only one God, Thomas was necessarily referring to Jesus Christ's God when he said, "my God." When all the evidence is honestly weighed, there is simply no doubt that Thomas was affirming Jesus' earlier teaching to him, that to see and believe in Jesus was to see and believe in the Father, the God of Jesus, the God of Thomas (20:17). Jesus himself tells us in this Gospel that he declared/explained the Father in terms of everything he said and did. John tells us the same thing - Jesus came so that we might know the Father, the true God (1 John 5:20). He is the Way to the Father and through Him we know the Father. Jesus explained that they saw the Father when they saw Jesus because the Father abiding in him did the works (14:9-10). How much more then was the Father abiding in that dead body which the Father had risen from the dead by the power of His Holy Spirit which proceeds from THE FATHER and which Jesus breathed into his disciples (see 20:21-22). Since seeing Jesus meant seeing the Father, Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God. Thomas is confessing what the entire Gospel of John is about. Jesus made the Father known to the people of the world. The only begotten declares/explains the Father. For that reason, to see Jesus is to see the Father. To see the Lord Jesus is to see the Father, our God, and Jesus Christ's God.

Blessed are you Thomas. Because you have seen, you have believed. John 20:29

He who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me.
He who sees me sees Him who sent me. John 12:44-45​

John 5:18 (WEB):

(18) For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.​

The Jews thought that Jesus was making himself equal to God (by referring to God as his father), not that he was claiming to be God.

John 10:30 (WEB):

(30) I and the Father are one.”
(31) Therefore Jews took up stones again to stone him.
​

See Jesus' answer to them in the following verses:

(32) Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?”
(33) The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
(34) Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’
(35) If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken),
(36) do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’
(37) If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me.
(38) But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works; that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”​

Again, no evidence that Jesus was God, only more evidence of Jesus declaring that he was God's son.

You have proved yourself a liar again!

I am not a liar. You are mistaken, but I'm not calling you a liar.

You have still not produced any evidence to back up your claim that Jesus has been in existence from the beginning of time ('from everlasting').

 

[tigger 2]

Well said, PinSeeker! The Jews response is reminiscent of "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

In the case of "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), Lord Jesus straight declares Himself to be YHWH God!

@tigger 2, let's just examine your heart's treasure of:



The old debunked and worn out and evil Watchtower Society Exodus 3:14 delusion is presented by you. You people do not understand Hebrew, then you deceive each other and you deceive yourself (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular in Hebrew).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where your contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKah - the Hebrew Bible, and here is the full of Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now behold these other TaNaKah scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

........................................

If you would actually read what has been written for you above, you would see that the Watchtower has not presented the fact that Ehyeh at Ex. 3:14 (and in the rest of Moses' writings) is likely to be "I will be." It is the studies and translations of TRINITARIAN scholars which are actually quoted and referenced. see posts #605 and #619 above.

And the list of those other uses of ehyeh in Moses' writings which I looked up using trinitarian-written and published Interlinears, (which you disgracefully represented by Young's translation alone) listed nearly all Bibles. But as already posted for you above, the KJV (and nearly all other Bibles) translate those 6 examples of ehyeh as "I will be" or its clear equivalent.

Your frequent and hypocritical use of "liar" is unbecoming and should be frowned upon by actual Christians.

 

[Kermos]

I think with my mind, not my heart, and my grandson example is totally logical - it's even common sense!

If I had a grandson then I would have to have been alive before he was born, in order to be the father of my grandson's father. It's not difficult to understand that! If you can't understand my grandson example then you are clearly an idiot or you don't understand simple English. Further discussion with you is therefore futile, and I won't waste any more of my time in discussion with you after this post.


You're like a stuck record, continually repeating the same thing over and over again.


So you don't believe Jesus' (or God's) own word's, which is what John 17:3 is?

Ok, I'll address each of those references:
Luke 1: (WEB):
(31) Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and give birth to a son, and will call his name ‘Jesus.’
(32) He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father, David,
(33) and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end to his Kingdom.”

There is no evidence there that Jesus is God. It says that the man Jesus will be called God's son.

Luke 1:35 says Jesus is the Son of God, not that he is God. (Luke 1:35 - The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.)

John 20:28 - Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” See The Trinity Delusion: John 20:28. Here's the conclusion from that web page:

Since there is only one God, Thomas was necessarily referring to Jesus Christ's God when he said, "my God." When all the evidence is honestly weighed, there is simply no doubt that Thomas was affirming Jesus' earlier teaching to him, that to see and believe in Jesus was to see and believe in the Father, the God of Jesus, the God of Thomas (20:17). Jesus himself tells us in this Gospel that he declared/explained the Father in terms of everything he said and did. John tells us the same thing - Jesus came so that we might know the Father, the true God (1 John 5:20). He is the Way to the Father and through Him we know the Father. Jesus explained that they saw the Father when they saw Jesus because the Father abiding in him did the works (14:9-10). How much more then was the Father abiding in that dead body which the Father had risen from the dead by the power of His Holy Spirit which proceeds from THE FATHER and which Jesus breathed into his disciples (see 20:21-22). Since seeing Jesus meant seeing the Father, Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God. Thomas is confessing what the entire Gospel of John is about. Jesus made the Father known to the people of the world. The only begotten declares/explains the Father. For that reason, to see Jesus is to see the Father. To see the Lord Jesus is to see the Father, our God, and Jesus Christ's God.

Blessed are you Thomas. Because you have seen, you have believed. John 20:29

He who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me.
He who sees me sees Him who sent me. John 12:44-45

John 5:18 (WEB):
(18) For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

The Jews thought that Jesus was making himself equal to God (by referring to God as his father), not that he was claiming to be God.

John 10:30 (WEB):
(30) I and the Father are one.”
(31) Therefore Jews took up stones again to stone him.

See Jesus' answer to them in the following verses:
(32) Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?”
(33) The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
(34) Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’
(35) If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken),
(36) do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’
(37) If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me.
(38) But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works; that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Again, no evidence that Jesus was God, only more evidence of Jesus declaring that he was God's son.


I am not a liar. You are mistaken, but I'm not calling you a liar.

You have still not produced any evidence to back up your claim that Jesus has been in existence from the beginning of time ('from everlasting').

According to the Word of God, a person thinks with the heart. "Jesus, knowing the thoughts of their hearts, took a child and put him by his side" (Luke 9:47).

Jesus says "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:21 [likewise Luke 12:34])

Jesus also says "the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. The good man brings out of [his] good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of [his] evil treasure what is evil. But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:34-37).

Your communication reveals the treasure of your heart.

Your deceptive and illogical grandson example is your heart's treasure for you repeat it, yet you cannot exist before your grandson. The thoughts of your heart are immediately illogical. Your grandson example is impossible for you as a mere human.

In your heart, you demote Jesus from being God.

JESUS GIVES PROOF OF HIS EVERLASTING EXISTENCE GOING BACK IN TIME WITH THE FOLLOWING:

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

continued to post #636

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #635

Regarding John 17:3, see the following.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8), and John 17:3 applies here.

You lie about the Word of God, and you lie about my writing for I acknowledgeing the recorded words of John 17:3.

YOU LIE ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD, AND YOU LIE ABOUT ME FOR I ACKNOWLEDGED THE TRUTH ABOUT THE RECORDED WORDS OF JOHN 17:3.

In Luke 1:35, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35), and the Son of God is equal to God (John 5:18), and no one is equal to God except for God being equal with God.

Jesus Christ is God because of the act of the Holy Spirit in the birth of Jesus Christ - the Son of God is God.

YOU FAIL TO SEE THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) RECORDED IN LUKE 1:34-35.

FURTHERMORE, YOU DENY THAT EQUAL TO GOD (JOHN 5:18) MEANS TO BE GOD.

The Apostle Thomas testified with Apostolic teaching when Thomas answered and said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” then Jesus said to Thomas, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” (John 20:28-29).

Thomas called Jesus Lord and God in John 20:28, and this is the accurate context in this passage.

Unmistakably, Thomas attributes both Lord and God to Jesus because the verse says "Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (John 20:28)!

See that "Thomas answered and said to Him" (John 20:28).

The language is absolutely clear for John 20:28 that Thomas said Lord and God to Jesus.

YOU LIE ABOUT JOHN 20:28 BECAUSE THOMAS LINGUISTICALLY TIED "LORD" AND "GOD" TOGETHER AS ONE STATEMENT WITH "AND" AND HIS PERSONALISATION WITH DUPLICATE "MY" APPLICATIONS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT JESUS.

Lord Jesus says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 4:18).

Immediately after Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30), the very next thing He says is "I showed you many good works from the Father" (John 10:31).

See God is good alone, and see that good in Jesus in John 10:31.

Moreover, the Jews response to Jesus is reminiscent of "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

The Apostle John declares that the Son of God is equal to God (John 5:18), and no one is equal to God except for God and there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

YOU LIED ABOUT THERE BEING NO EVIDENCE THAT JESUS IS GOD WITH RESPECT TO JESUS SAYING "I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE" (JOHN 10:30).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Keiw]

In @Keiw's heart, keiw wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect changing Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth" in keiw's heart.

Is it your contention that 1914 is the year for Revelation 6:4?

You cant prove it wasnt. There had never been a world war until that point. So obviously--peace was taken from the earth. Because the ride of the white horse= righteous war= the war in heaven, satan and his angels lost and were kicked out of heaven to the earth, he came angry knowing his time was short. He filled mens hearts with hatred to kill one another in a massive way. Millions upon millions died all over the earth after ww1 from things mentioned of the other 3 riders. Thus-facts prove my teachers are correct on that matter.

 

[Keiw]

Let's look at the word "through" (Strong's 1223, διά, dia, through, on account of, because of) in "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

1223 diá (a preposition) – properly, across (to the other side), back-and-forth to go all the way through, "successfully across" ("thoroughly").1223 (diá) is also commonly used as a prefix and lend the same idea ("thoroughly," literally, "successfully" across to the other side).

[1223 (diá) is a root of the English term diameter ("across to the other side, through"). Before a vowel, dia is simply written di̓.]

John conveyed that all creation was created because of Jesus - a successful work by Jesus.

The Greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537, ἐκ, ek, from, from out of) means "out", so you conjure up definitions like "of" for "ek" to satisfy your wicked thoughts such as your damning delusion that Jesus is not God.

Now, back to your evil writing (by way of @Keiw).

Behold your evil lie for you wrote "Theone whom he created all other things through."; on the other hand, the Apostle John wrote "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

You added the word "other".

You "all other things".

John "All things".

Since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus cannot be created for Jesus created "All things"; furthermore, since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus is Creator God, that is, YHWH God.

Your evil deception includes that you think Jesus is not YHWH God, so you disbelieve in Jesus.

Now, this brings us to the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

The Hebrew word Elohim is the English word God in Genesis 1:26.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The Hebrew word Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.

The plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

Incorporating John's message of "All things" (John 1:3) with "Let Us make man" (Genesis 1:26) proves that the "Us" absolutely demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH God because the "Us" is "God" in Genesis 1:26.

Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

You should look Elohim up--the Hebrew rule is never plural for the true living God=YHWH(Jehovah)
The us is 100% what i have shown.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

The Russellians are literary fools in an incapable state to Truthfully (John 14:6) and Spiritually discern grammar in the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14); moreover, the Russellians (Watchtower Society people and similar types) prove their linguistic deceptions about the Christ in their writings, and the following items display their wickedly broken translation efforts and evil interpretations of scripture

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

@Aunty Jane

The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

You take Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

You impose your evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

You serve your father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

@keithr

You foolishly deny the context that Lord Jesus establishes the focus of "who God is" in the conversation recorded in John 8:31-5i at the outset (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #609 in this thread) - you quote the passage's conversation about "who God is" which contains a climactic conclusion then you proceeded to lie about the selfsame passage in your claim that the passage is not about "who God is".

@Pierac


You, the klutz of deception, attempt to dilute the meaning of aionas/ages/forever in Luke 1:33, but you linguistically fail (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #610 in this thread) - for truly the angel Gabriel emphasizes "forever" with "no end" within the proclamation "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).


You, the klutz of deception, attempt to dilute the meaning of Elohim meaning God in Genesis 1:26, yet the plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God")
(as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #540 with referenced #457 in this thread) - for the Word of God clearly indicates God created man in the likeness of God, not angels, but truly the likeness of God alone in "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God" (Genesis 5:1), so truthfully Elohim in Genesis 1 26 indicates the plurality within YHWH God being the person of the Father and the person of the Word and the person of the Spirit (Isaiah 48:16).

You, the klutz of deception, attempt to redefine the Greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537, ἐκ, ek, from, from out of) to your delusional meaning "of" white you adamantly try to demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #620 in this thread), so your misunderstanding of the Greek language is public for all the see.

Therefore, all of you with the proofs above are dangerously unreliable sources.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

Only in your mislead mind do you say such things. If God was with us why you think--Then why does the NT teach that it was God who did all the things through Jesus? Acts 2:22-1Cor 8:5-6

 

[Keiw]

I am not of a religion bro. Catholic means one is a Christian. not a sect.

The Jews broke the Law, no one can keep the Law, but Jesus put the Law under Grace.

Hitler was a good man as far as the OT goes in mans works, and as to the Talmud whore, because Hitler was doing everything that the Talmud teaches, but maybe not going that far in fact.
When I first started looking into Hitler I found that the Nazis were just so much like the Jews of the Talmud, they was like railway tracks following one another in everything.
The leadership of the OT Jews were just like the Nazis, in that they knew just how to play the majority of people for fools ! and get them to dance to their tune.
Just remember all of what Jesus pointed out about them OT Jews leading the people astray and who they truly were murders from the beginning from their Father of lies !
They had it all wrong as they were lead by Satan, because they did not know God the Farther in fact as the Bible tells us so, they only knew "of" the God at best, but they did not know God in fact, because as any worthy Christian knows, that No one comes to the Father but only through his only begotten Son ! See that bro ! The Jews did not know God ! They are a Mans works religion. They are a Religion of Man. not God !
The Law was for to lead them to God in fact.
The Jews were lost bro ! they failed because they did not know God ! just as Christianity has been and is failing, because they have cast Christ Jesus aside for Mans works BS. For They do not preach on Christ Jesus at all in fact and that's why they have been failing in loosing the people to God from the 60 on in droves, so that our Nations now have lost their way ! We have Satanist running our Nations, just look at Jo Biden he is clearly a full on Satanist.

Anyone who looks to idolising the Jews of today is a total Anti-Christ ! such people are who are idolising Anti-Christ in fact, for what ! The reason why, is because they know not God, because they know not Christ Jesus in fact !

I dont idolize the Jewish religion--They are cut off of being Gods chosen( Matt 23:38)--John had no clue in revelation what Jesus true religion would be called in the last days, so he referenced Israel--just carrying the meaning Gods chosen, not Literal Israel-spiritual Israel--They come from every tribe, people and tongue.