A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[tigger 2]

You wrote that Jesus was "Exodus 3:14-15 has absolutely no bearing on what he said", and IN THAT STATEMENT ABOUT JESUS' DECLARATION RECORDED IN JOHN 8:58, YOU PROVE THAT YOU CANNOT SPIRITUALLY, ACCURATELY, NOR TRUTHFULLY EXPLAIN JESUS' WORDS OF "TRULY, TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM" (JOHN 8:58) for Jesus says that Jesus is "I AM" as recorded in Exodus 3:14; moreover, Jesus' statement recorded in John 8:58 indicates that Jesus is God! Praise be to the Living God Jesus Christ!

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 are most certainly germane to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the John passage's exchange revolves around "who God is". Context for John 8:58 is established.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

You, Aunty Jane, have excluded yourself from God's Memorial name to all generations.

.........................................................
Since every other use of ehyeh found in Moses' writings is translated into English as "I will be," it more than likely has the same meaning at Exodus 3:14 (compare Ex. 3:12). A number of respected trinitarian sources agree.

As for Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint, it actually reads "I am THE BEING; and he said, 'Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you." - Brenton. The capitalized words are exactly as Brenton translated. Common sense and Brenton's actual translation show that God was revealing himself as "the being" only. "I am" is not part of that name but is used as it normally is in statements.
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

There are at minimum 4 different Jesus' being taught on earth. The apostles knew nothing of a trinity God. Why do you think that is? The Israelite religion never served a trinity God while serving the true God. Why do you think that is? That means while Jesus was on earth he knew nothing of a trinity God or would have told the Israelite religious leaders they were serving a false God. Instead Jesus teaches that single being God-John 20:17, Rev 3:12-John 4:22-24. He points all to his Father as the only true God-John 17:3

Well well that's very Jewish of you. anyone who rejects the Trinity is a Anti-Christ in fact, because they can not be truly born again, now that being the case, one who seeks Christ just as did Jesus disciples who were Jews ? are just like Christians who were or are not saved ? but seek to be Saved ? and born again !

Most Christians are just like the Jews ? because one does not know who Christ Jesus truly is because they are not truly born again, it is not until one is truly born again that one knows Christ Jesus in fact.

I my self knew of Jesus and I thought he was the Christ ! so i found out that all them years of Bible study and going to Church did not Save anyone, it did lead one to understand the Religious, as a water baptised ? but never can such ever bring one to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, because only Jesus can do that for you himself in fact.

Sure people may have a spirit ? but such is only a religious spirit ? just like the Jews had ? that being the case, such a one would kill Jesus in fact, just as they did, why did they do this, well it's because they are of a Mans works doctrine in fact. so such a one does not know the Holy Spirit ! now why is that, well even the disciples did not have the Holy Spirit until Jesus went to Heaven. remember that. That's when the lights went on ! the first Christians they were in fact from then on, and yes they were all Jews, but truly worthy Jews who are worthy of being an Israelite in fact.

Now Nathaniel was called a true Israelite by Jesus, when one understands the gravity of what Jesus said of Nathaniel, you understand that to become a worthy Israelite one is worthy of God in fact ! but to be of the Tribe does never cut the mustard in fact ! as we see also in when Jesus said go to the Israelites ? the Tribes people ! and if they do not follow ? just to dismiss them totally, why because they are not worthy in fact.

Now a fool would claim that the Trinity is 3 gods ? no they are 3 in one ! now for a Jew or any carnal fool, due to such a one that truly lacks the Holy Spirit they will never get it ! because they can not know the Father ! because they do not know the Son ! and if one does not truly know the Son then you do not have the Holy Spirit !
So first of all you need the Holy Spirit, but first one must understand the Sin against Jesus and then one has a hope of moving forward.
Then one understands that you need Jesus and he sent the Holy Spirit and the Farther sent his Son. one can not separate the 3 as they are all one in the same but have their own function. Anyone who rejects the Trinity is an Anti-Christ because they are not with Christ Jesus ! they are outside of him doing the works of Man for they have no God, but gods. This is what you see in the Churches trash people and that's why the falling away, because they know not God !

Now the Trinity does not say that the Son is the Father does it, but they are as one, just as the Holy Spirit is one with in the 3 ! outside of such is nonsense! you need the two to know the Father and anyone who says otherwise is a numskull. like a Carnal religious idiot Jew. such people reject Jesus Christ in fact regardless be they Jew or anything other. Outside of Jesus Christ their is nothing ? to talk about God outside of Christ Jesus is a abomination !

 

[PinSeeker]

As much as anything ~ but actually much more ~ God proclaims His eternal being and omniscience and omnipotence in Exodus 3:14, and Jesus does exactly the same thing in John 8:58.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Aunty Jane]

HOW SO YOU SAY?
Well we who receive Christ are the adopted children of God the Father and of through God the Son, otherwise we could not have joined into the family of God.

How do you prove that you are part of the family of God? You can claim to be, but so do those whom Jesus rejects at the judgment. (Matthew 7:21-23) The easiest person on the planet to fool is yourself. Some will get a very rude awakening.

Those who receive "adoption as sons" are God's "elect" who are specially chosen to be "saints", who will rule with Christ in heaven......do you have this assignment? If so, who are you going to rule over, and for whom do you act as a priest? Like Jesus, the "chosen ones" (saints") are assigned both roles. (Revelation 20:6) I am always amazed by the fact that those who believe that they have the 'heavenly calling', have no idea what they will do there....

Apparently Christendom has lost the meaning of the word "saint" (holy one) and have included all believers in that category as if there are no qualifications needed.....just "belief". But not all are "chosen" for that role. If you knew your Bible instead of just the verses selected by Christendom, you would know this.

1 Corinthians 1:1-3...
"Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (NASB)

Who does Paul identify here? "Saints by calling, WITH all who...call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, THEIR LORD AND OURS".
So, not all are heaven bound "saints". The majority of the "saved" will reside on earth, redeemed by the blood of Christ and granted life in "the new earth", ruled over by the best government that humankind have ever had. (2 Peter 3:13; Daniel 2:44)
God created the human race to live here on the earth...forever. Where are you in that scenario?

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,

Read it again and highlight the other words that seem to ignore......

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"....because He was the one "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself."

The Bible is not saying what you want it to say because you see only what you want to believe. This is talking about the Father, not the son.
The Father is the God of the son......not just on earth but also in heaven. (Revelation 3:12) Do you not see it?

Ephesians 3
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,"

You did it again.....
"For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named"

Again, this is talking about the Father, not the son.

Obviously we are only sons and part of the family of God because of Jesus Christ by whom we are called and known as Christians.

God has three separate parts to his Universal Family.....all created by his "Firstborn" under the guidance and direction of his God and Father. (Colossians 1:15-17)
After the creation of his "only begotten son", (Revelation 3:14) the angels were the first of God's angelic "sons" and these were created to live in the realm in which God himself dwells. (Matthew 6:9) These sons joyfully applauded the creation of the material universe, and especially the earth as they observed its preparation, as attested to by Job.
Job 38:4-7...
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the measuring line over it?
6 On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (NASB)

His second creation was living things on this carefully prepared earth, given to mankind, who alone were created in God's image, to become caretakers and zookeepers, and given God's moral qualities so as to be the kind of caretakers that God would approve of.
These too would be his 'sons and daughters', providing that they could obey him as their Sovereign ruler. We know they failed because a rebellion had taken place in the spirit realm and a guardian cherub, encouraged the humans to take what did not belong to them. These lost their place in God's arrangement and were sentenced to life outside of paradise on cursed ground. They would never see paradise again.

In arranging for the rescue of Adam's condemned children, God sent his son into the world to redeem them, bringing a new and third creation into being......humans who began life on earth, but who were chosen for a special assignment in heaven...to assist the Christ in the administration of his Kingdom. These had to be "born again" as spirit creatures, in order to transform into beings who could inhabit the real where God and his spirit family live. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom", (1 Corinthians 15:50) which means that those on earth are the subjects of the Kingdom, rather than those who make up its ruling body in heaven.

That is from your fake bible though and your hideous commentaries.

There is no such thing as a fake Bible....and the 'hideous commentaries' were in existence long before we were.

You speak as one who has no knowledge of scripture, only what you yourself have been fed by the doctrines of the counterfeit churches.

 

[Kermos]

Yet you reject what Jesus is teaching/telling you... What is Jesus and Peter and Paul teaching you... here???

" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Paul is teaching you something here.... 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!


Jesus is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God!

You can do better...
Paul

Peter calls Jesus "the God and Savior" in 2 Peter 1:1.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.


Lord Jesus declares and teaches that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Your antichrist writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Perhaps you should read it again....

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

MAKE NOTE.... When the Jewish translators whom translated their own Bible so Greek speaking Jews would know the truth... hundreds of years before Jesus was born... Put your view to rest!!!

It is you whom Lie about both scripture and the history of scripture as it is written!!!
Paul

One review of your post was enough. Perhaps you should read it again because the following eliminates any confusion that you attempt to introduce in your post.

You bear false witness about me when you wrote "You have no idea of the culture you speak", so you sin by your violation of "You shall not bear false witness" (Exodus 20:16)!

Now, Pierac, see that I am not relating the word elohim to "angels, judges, or even a human being" because I wrote about Genesis 1:26 which contains the words "God", "Us", and "Our" in the post to which you replied - and the relevant three paragraphs are quoted here:

The plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

Incorporating John's message of "All things" (John 1:3) with "Let Us make man" (Genesis 1:26) proves that the "Us" absolutely demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH God because the "Us" is "God" in Genesis 1:26.

Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

It is written "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God" (Genesis 5:1); therefore, the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 refers to YHWH God alone, not "angels, judges, or even a human being".

You are confusing so much about who God is!

Since you unceremoniously injected yourself into @Keiw and my correspondence about Genesis 1:26 taking up keiw's deception, then you are effectively assuming keiw's position with keiw's prior writings on this matter, so you'll see quotes of keiw that are now assigned to you. You entered yourself as a proxy of sorts for keiw.

Now, back to your evil writing.

Behold your evil lie for you wrote "Theone whom he created all other things through."; on the other hand, the Apostle John wrote "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

You added the word "other".

You "all other things".

John "All things".

Since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus cannot be created for Jesus created "All things"; furthermore, since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus is Creator God, that is, YHWH God.

Your evil deception includes that you think Jesus is not YHWH God, so you disbelieve in Jesus.

Now, this brings us to the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

The Hebrew word Elohim is the English word God in Genesis 1:26.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The Hebrew word Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.

The plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

Incorporating John's message of "All things" (John 1:3) with "Let Us make man" (Genesis 1:26) proves that the "Us" absolutely demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH God because the "Us" is "God" in Genesis 1:26.

Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

 

[Kermos]

It sounds like you don't understand how Charles Taze Russell and the Bible Students came up with the year 1914. Obviously the year 1914 does not appear in the Bible, nor is any other year mentioned using our dating system. From Wikipedia:

This calendar era is based on the traditionally reckoned year of the conception or birth of Jesus, AD counting years from the start of this epoch and BC denoting years before the start of the era. There is no year zero in this scheme; thus the year AD 1 immediately follows the year 1 BC. This dating system was devised in 525 by Dionysius Exiguus of Scythia Minor, but was not widely used until the 9th century.

The 1914 date was based on study of prophecies, which contain events and time periods between them. In a similar manner the prohecies of the coming of the Messiah can be shown to be exact to the year and even to the day of Jesus' baptism (the Jews were expecting the Messiah to arrive, but they didn't recognise Jesus as the Messiah). So the year 1914 comes from calculations based on Bible prophecies, and if you want to denounce it as incorrect then you need to delve more deeply into Bible study. Neither the Bible Students nor the Jehovah's Witnesses added 1914 to the Book of Revelation - you're wrong to accuse them of that.

When a person specifies that 1914 AD is part and parcel of Revelation 6:4, then such a person wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4), in effect such a person heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, such a person adds to The Book of Revelation and/orl subtracts from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to such a person person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, such a person is evil and an unreliable source.

 

[Kermos]

No he doesn't! Why would Jesus talk nonsense? For example, if a person named John was older than a person called Abraham, John wouldn't say to another person, "Before Abraham was born, John". It wouldn't make any sense. What Jesus was saying is, "Most certainly, I tell you, since before Abraham came into existence, I have been existing”.

The KJV says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." The Greek word translated was, ginomai, means 'to become (come into being)', and the Greek word translated as am, eimi, means 'have been'. So a more precise translation would be "Before Abraham came into being, I have been".

Jesus did not reply to the Jews question, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" (verse 57) with "I declare that I am the God known as I Am". He replied that he had been existing from before Abraham was born, backing up his statement "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad" (verse 56). You should not take the verse out of the context of the recorded conversation, and especially not take two words of the sentence out of context of the sentence!


What does that mean? How can anyone include or exclude themselves with/from God's name YHVH?

You write antichrist about the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) when you wrote "No he doesn't! Why would Jesus talk nonsense?" (this goes for @Aunty Jane and @tigger 2 since you liked keithr's post), and the proof follows.

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

Now, proceeding without mentioning Exodus 3:14.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[keithr]

When a person specifies that 1914 AD is part and parcel of Revelation 6:4, then such a person wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4),

Commenting that you think that a prohecy was fulfilled in a certain year, is not adding to Scripture! Many people believe that Jesus was crucified in 33 AD, but 33 AD is not mentioned in the Bible - do you think they're adding to Scripture too?

 

[keithr]

You write antichrist about the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) when you wrote "No he doesn't! Why would Jesus talk nonsense?" (this goes for @Aunty Jane and @tigger 2 since you liked keithr's post), and the proof follows.

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

You clearly can't seem to understand the conversation that is recorded in John 8:31-58. I highlighted some of the conversation in post #570 to make it easier for you to see the what was being discussed (it's not about who God is), but you still can't understand it. I think Jesus' words in verse 43 and 47 applies to you:

(43) Why don’t you understand my speech? Because you can’t hear my word.
(47) He who is of God hears the words of God. For this cause you don’t hear, because you are not of God.”​

What was the Jews response to those verses? They accused Jesus of being a Samaritan and having a demon (verse 48)! Similarly you have reacted by accusing me and two others who disagree with your teaching as writing "antichrist about the Word of God". Because of their lack of understanding they took up stones to throw at him (verse 59), I hope you wouldn't do that if you could!

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14

The context of the conversation does not refer back to Exodus 3:14, any more than John the Baptist was not referring back to Exodus 3:14 when he confessed "I am not the Christ" (John 1:20), etc.. The conversation starts back in verse 12 with:

(12) Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”​

The Jews didn't think that Jesus was claiming to be God when he said "I am [ego eimi] the light of the World", nor when he said "I am" (ego eimi) in verses 18, 23 (twice), 24, and 28. Nor did they think that when he said it in verse 58. They wanted to stone him because he was claiming to have been in continuous existence since before Abraham was born, yet they knew he was les than 50 years old and they knew of his parents, so he was claiming to be more than a normal man, which they could not believe.

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

Jesus probably said (in Aramaic) something like, "From before Abraham came into existence, I have been in continuous existence". The translators who translated John's Greek recording of it into English chose to translate it as "Before Abraham was, I am", or "Before Abraham's coming—I am" (YLT), but that is not a very accurate translation.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

But Jesus was simply saying that he had been alive from before the birth of Abraham, and that he was not lying when he said "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad” (verse 56).

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

You cannot deduce that from Jesus' words.

No one except God is everlasting.

And all resurrected Christians, who will become immortal!

Here are some quotes from what The Trinity Delusion website (The Trinity Delusion: John 8:58) says about John 5:58:

The Trinitarian interpretation directly contradicts Jesus' own words in at least four explicitly obvious ways:

(1) Jesus had just said that if he testified about himself, his testimony is not true (Jn 5:31; 8:17-18). But that is precisely what Trinitarians have Jesus doing at John 8:58 in direct contradiction to what he said.

(2) Jesus also had just said that if he glorified himself concerning who he is, his glory would mean absolutely nothing (8:54). But Trinitarians contradict Jesus again insisting that he did indeed glorify himself at John 8:58 and he did so in the highest way possible, and instead of meaning nothing as Jesus insisted, Trinitarians contradict him and insist it means everything.

Trinitarians talk about of both sides of their mouth concerning Jesus. On one hand, they will admit that Philippians 2:5-9 says that Jesus made himself nothing and humbled himself. On the other hand, they have Jesus glorifying himself as God Almighty.

(3) Trinitarians also say the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they knew exactly what he was saying at John 8:58. But yet again, Trinitarians directly contradict Jesus who had just said these Jews could not understand what he was saying because they were not of God and were children of the devil (8:43-47).

(4) Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone he was God's Anointed One (Matthew 16:20; Luke 9:20-21). But we are expected to believe that Jesus was going around Israel declaring himself to be Yahweh their God. It's a ridiculously absurd contradiction.

Jesus' own testimony in this selfsame dialogue decisively demonstrates to us that the Trinitarian interpretation of John 8 is absolutely impossible since their interpretation violently contradicts what Jesus had just said. Trinitarians are effectively demonstrating that they do not hear Jesus anymore than the Jews did in this dialogue nor do they even care. They care far more about promoting their false doctrine than hearing Jesus.​

In the Greek Septuagint, the actual divine name revealed to Moses was not, "ego eimi" as Trinitarians are suggesting to everyone. God's divine name in this Greek translation was "ego eimi ho ōn" which means "I am the being" or "I am the existence" or "I am the existent one" or some similar idea. Also, English translations which read as, "I AM sent me to you" are not translating "ego eimi sent me to you" from the Greek. The Greek actually reads "ho ōn sent me to you." (Exodus 3:14). In other words, it does not say, "Ego eimi sent me to you." This Trinitarian claim is precariously perched upon a farce that God's divine name in Greek is simply ego eimi. But it isn't.

Observe how these two men identify themselves by saying, "ego eimi."

And Asahel pursued Abner, and as he went, he turned neither to the right hand nor to the left from following Abner. Then Abner looked behind him and said, “Is that you, Asahel?” And he answered, "I AM" (i.e. “It is I.”). 2 Samuel 2:19-20​

Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, “Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?” Others were saying, “This is he,” still others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, "I AM" John 9:8-9​

This Trinitarian claim is usually presented as if Jesus suddenly broke out the words ego eimi which no man ever used, in order to identify himself in a shock and awe manner which provoked the Jews to anger since they would automatically recognize ego eimi to be the divine name of their God. However, the contextual facts demonstrate this is absurd and just the opposite is true. During this very same dialogue with the Jews in John chapter 8, Jesus used the term ego eimi several times before he used it at verse 8:58 (8:12,16,18,23,24,28). And through those many utterances of ego eimi by Jesus during this selfsame dialogue, not one of these Jews at any time ever supposed Jesus was referring to their God. The use of the term ego eimi never even caused them to raise an eyebrow. The Jews had been asking Jesus who he claimed to be. In that context, Jesus had used the term ego eimi twice before in a very similar manner and they never even blinked. This fact alone clearly demonstrates that the Jews did not think the use of this term was a reference to the divine name of their God.​

 

[Pierac]

Now, back to your evil writing.

Behold your evil lie for you wrote "Theone whom he created all other things through."; on the other hand, the Apostle John wrote "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

You added the word "other".

You "all other things".

John "All things".

Since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus cannot be created for Jesus created "All things"; furthermore, since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus is Creator God, that is, YHWH God.

Your evil deception includes that you think Jesus is not YHWH God, so you disbelieve in Jesus.

The answer is in the word “by ” better known in the Greek as “Dia”

G1223
διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: - account (4), after (2), afterward (1), always *(2), because (111), between *(1), briefly *(1), charge *(1), constantly (1), continually *(6), during (1), forever *(1), gives (1), means (3), over (1), presence (1), reason (40), sake (41), sakes (5), since (1), so then *(1), so *(1), therefore *(16), this reason *(1), this *(1), though (1), through (225), through the agency (1), through *(1), view (2), way (3), what (1), why (3), why *(27).

And the little word “of” better known by the Greek word ek

1537

ἐκ, ἐξ ek ex ek, ex

A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

Whom is posting evil lies now... Kermos? It's you whom are lacking in Biblical Greek ... instead your reading a translation and think you know what it actually says... Hope this helps you understand the word "Through" in your translation from Greek

Paul

 

[Rich R]

The answer is in the word “by ” better known in the Greek as “Dia”

G1223
διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: - account (4), after (2), afterward (1), always *(2), because (111), between *(1), briefly *(1), charge *(1), constantly (1), continually *(6), during (1), forever *(1), gives (1), means (3), over (1), presence (1), reason (40), sake (41), sakes (5), since (1), so then *(1), so *(1), therefore *(16), this reason *(1), this *(1), though (1), through (225), through the agency (1), through *(1), view (2), way (3), what (1), why (3), why *(27).

And the little word “of” better known by the Greek word ek

1537

ἐκ, ἐξ ek ex ek, ex

A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

Whom is posting evil lies now... Kermos? It's you whom are lacking in Biblical Greek ... instead your reading a translation and think you know what it actually says... Hope this helps you understand the word "Through" in your translation from Greek

Paul

Google "shaliah." It is all about how the ancient Hebrews, as well as all the other Ancient Near East people, understood agency.

Jesus was God's perfect agent. As God's agent, he always said and did exactly what his principle, God, told him to say and do. There are tons of agents God used throughout the scriptures, but Jesus was the only perfect one.

In any case, an agent and the one who sent the agent are in in no wise one and the same person in any sense whatsoever. Of course we could change the meaning of simple words and say an agent could be the same person as the one who sent him. But if we did that I could change the meaning of "spirit" and claim God is a Martian.

 

[marks]

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

If Jesus is the agency through which all things were created, He Himself was not created. No?

Much love!

 

[Rich R]

If Jesus is the agency through which all things were created, He Himself was not created. No?

Much love!

Well, Jesus came about because God implanted His seed in Mary's womb. I don't know if that would be considered as having been created.

God created Adam perfect and Adam blew it. All of Adam's descendants wore born with the same sin nature as Adam. Genesis 1 goes out of the way to emphasize that seed produces like offspring. If the father has a sin nature, so will all his descendants. But Jesus wasn't born by Adam's seed, so he like Adam, started our perfect. Now, Jesus, having free will, could have gone the way of Adam, but thankfully he didn't. He remained as the lamb without blemish that was required for our redemption.

1 Peter 1:3 talks about corruptible and incorruptible seed. Like Jesus, born again folks have the incorruptible variety. Yeah!

 

[Pierac]

If Jesus is the agency through which all things were created, He Himself was not created. No?

Much love!

Wow... You don't read very well.. διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of,

Jesus is the center of Gods plan for humanity. Come on... God's plan has been written for thousands of years... Jesus is the second Adam... The first Adam was made to fail, the second Adam was not!

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

KJV Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore7451 travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Word Study: H7451 רע ra‛, ָרָעה

rā‛āh: An adjective meaning bad, evil.

Concordant OT Ecc 1:13 “It is an experience of evil Elohin [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.”


NASB Ecc 3:10 I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves. 11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity5769 in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

KJV Ecc 3:10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it. 11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world5769 in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

H5769 עלם עולם ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm

o-lawm', o-lawm'

From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind

True Translation: So God makes everything proper and appropriate for His Plan, but He has put obscurity in their hearts.. so that, or in order that they cannot know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call life.


NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Jesus is part of Gods plan for humanity. But Mark... not all are appointed to eternal life... as Act 13:48 teach

NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Net Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G2820) since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

Word study
G2820
κληρόω

klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.

Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.

Word study
G4309
προορίζω
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.

In 1Co_2:7 it has a thing as its obj., namely, the wisdom of God. The purpose was our glory, i.e., our benefits of salvation.

In Act_4:28 the verb is followed by the aor. inf. genésthai (gínomai [G1096], to be, become), to be done. The action of Herod and Pontius Pilate in crucifying Jesus Christ is said to have been predetermined or foreordained by the hand and will of God. This indicates that Christ's mission, especially His death and resurrection, was not ultimately the result of human will but originated in the eternal counsel of God which decreed the event determining all its primary and secondary causes, instruments, agents, and contingencies.

In Rom_8:29-30, predestination is used of God's actions in eternally decreeing both the objects and goal of His plan of salvation. Proorízō has a personal obj., the pl. relative pron. hoús, whom. This relative pron. refers to those previously mentioned as those whom God foreknew (proégnō [G4267]). The translation is, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." The objects of predestination are those whom He foreknew. Predestination does not involve a predetermined plan only but also includes the individuals for whom the plan is devised. The goal of predestination is expressed in the phrase, "to be conformed to the image of his Son."

In Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11 this same purpose of foreordination is termed adoption. Adoption (huiothesía [G5206]) is the placing into sonship or legal heirship of those who are born of God. According to Eph_1:5 the basis of this prior decree is "the good pleasure of His will." The word rendered "good pleasure" is eudokía (G2107) and means pleasure or satisfaction, that which seems good. Paul is careful to add that it is the good pleasure of God's will, it is what seems good to God-not man. Similarly, in Eph_1:11 foreordination is based upon "the purpose (próthesis [G4286]) of the One who is working all things ([neut. acc. pl.] tá pánta [G3844], an idiom for the entire metaphysical and physical universe) according to the decision of His will" (a.t.). This same thinking is reflected in Rom_8:30 where foreordination is joined successively to foreknowledge. Here it is presented not as a capricious, arbitrary or whimsical exercise of raw will or unreasoned impulse, but as the expression of a deliberate and wise plan which purposes to redeem those undeserving sinners whom God freely favors as the objects of His mercy.

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Syn.: protássō (G4384), to appoint before; procheirízō (G4400), to appoint beforehand; proetoimázō (G4282), to prepare before.

Mark You think salvation is either heaven or hell...It's not!!! It's all about the coming Kingdom...the 1000 year reign... Only the chosen of God will reign with the Christ of God!
Paul

 

[marks]

Mark You think salvation is either heaven or hell...It's not!!!

No, salvation is about knowing our Maker, loving Him, and being loved by Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

True Translation: So God makes everything proper and appropriate for His Plan, but He has put obscurity in their hearts.. so that, or in order that they cannot know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call life.

That's an interpretation, not a translation. While it may give a certain sense of the passage, it is not at all a translation. There is one translation I've read, a little interpretive also, but I think it gets it right, "he has fixed the world in their heart, that they cannot understand . . ." I think it's the LXX that says "age". God has irremediably afixed our hearts to this terrestrial realm, this humanity, so that we cannot know His secrets.

In Christ we are a new creation, seated together in the heavenly realm. And in the mind of the spirit we can begin to understand the mysteries He reveals to us.

Much love!

 

[Keiw]

Well well that's very Jewish of you. anyone who rejects the Trinity is a Anti-Christ in fact, because they can not be truly born again, now that being the case, one who seeks Christ just as did Jesus disciples who were Jews ? are just like Christians who were or are not saved ? but seek to be Saved ? and born again !

Most Christians are just like the Jews ? because one does not know who Christ Jesus truly is because they are not truly born again, it is not until one is truly born again that one knows Christ Jesus in fact.

I my self knew of Jesus and I thought he was the Christ ! so i found out that all them years of Bible study and going to Church did not Save anyone, it did lead one to understand the Religious, as a water baptised ? but never can such ever bring one to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, because only Jesus can do that for you himself in fact.

Sure people may have a spirit ? but such is only a religious spirit ? just like the Jews had ? that being the case, such a one would kill Jesus in fact, just as they did, why did they do this, well it's because they are of a Mans works doctrine in fact. so such a one does not know the Holy Spirit ! now why is that, well even the disciples did not have the Holy Spirit until Jesus went to Heaven. remember that. That's when the lights went on ! the first Christians they were in fact from then on, and yes they were all Jews, but truly worthy Jews who are worthy of being an Israelite in fact.

Now Nathaniel was called a true Israelite by Jesus, when one understands the gravity of what Jesus said of Nathaniel, you understand that to become a worthy Israelite one is worthy of God in fact ! but to be of the Tribe does never cut the mustard in fact ! as we see also in when Jesus said go to the Israelites ? the Tribes people ! and if they do not follow ? just to dismiss them totally, why because they are not worthy in fact.

Now a fool would claim that the Trinity is 3 gods ? no they are 3 in one ! now for a Jew or any carnal fool, due to such a one that truly lacks the Holy Spirit they will never get it ! because they can not know the Father ! because they do not know the Son ! and if one does not truly know the Son then you do not have the Holy Spirit !
So first of all you need the Holy Spirit, but first one must understand the Sin against Jesus and then one has a hope of moving forward.
Then one understands that you need Jesus and he sent the Holy Spirit and the Farther sent his Son. one can not separate the 3 as they are all one in the same but have their own function. Anyone who rejects the Trinity is an Anti-Christ because they are not with Christ Jesus ! they are outside of him doing the works of Man for they have no God, but gods. This is what you see in the Churches trash people and that's why the falling away, because they know not God !

Now the Trinity does not say that the Son is the Father does it, but they are as one, just as the Holy Spirit is one with in the 3 ! outside of such is nonsense! you need the two to know the Father and anyone who says otherwise is a numskull. like a Carnal religious idiot Jew. such people reject Jesus Christ in fact regardless be they Jew or anything other. Outside of Jesus Christ their is nothing ? to talk about God outside of Christ Jesus is a abomination !

You arent seeing clearly. The Jewish religion served the true living God, 0 doubt. They served-YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God-0 doubt. God does not change, He was changed at a council of Catholicism around 381. No trinity was being served at the first council of Nicea in 325 because the true God was being served-a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah)- 0 doubt. The34,000 trinity based religions are a divided house, they will not stand. They 100% fail 1 Corinthians 1:10--Unity of thought( all of Gods truth) no division. Catholicism mistranslated errors in to fit false council teachings-0 doubt.

 

[Keiw]

One review of your post was enough. Perhaps you should read it again because the following eliminates any confusion that you attempt to introduce in your post.

You bear false witness about me when you wrote "You have no idea of the culture you speak", so you sin by your violation of "You shall not bear false witness" (Exodus 20:16)!

Now, Pierac, see that I am not relating the word elohim to "angels, judges, or even a human being" because I wrote about Genesis 1:26 which contains the words "God", "Us", and "Our" in the post to which you replied - and the relevant three paragraphs are quoted here:



It is written "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God" (Genesis 5:1); therefore, the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 refers to YHWH God alone, not "angels, judges, or even a human being".

You are confusing so much about who God is!

Since you unceremoniously injected yourself into @Keiw and my correspondence about Genesis 1:26 taking up keiw's deception, then you are effectively assuming keiw's position with keiw's prior writings on this matter, so you'll see quotes of keiw that are now assigned to you. You entered yourself as a proxy of sorts for keiw.

Now, back to your evil writing.

Behold your evil lie for you wrote "Theone whom he created all other things through."; on the other hand, the Apostle John wrote "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

You added the word "other".

You "all other things".

John "All things".

Since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus cannot be created for Jesus created "All things"; furthermore, since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus is Creator God, that is, YHWH God.

Your evil deception includes that you think Jesus is not YHWH God, so you disbelieve in Jesus.

Now, this brings us to the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

The Hebrew word Elohim is the English word God in Genesis 1:26.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The Hebrew word Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.

The plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

Incorporating John's message of "All things" (John 1:3) with "Let Us make man" (Genesis 1:26) proves that the "Us" absolutely demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH God because the "Us" is "God" in Genesis 1:26.

Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

us in Genesis = YHWH(Jehovah) (and his master worker( Jesus, a created being, he tells you so at Prov 8.

 

[marks]

Jesus is the center of Gods plan for humanity. Come on... God's plan has been written for thousands of years... Jesus is the second Adam... The first Adam was made to fail, the second Adam was not!

Think about that. What made Jesus different from Adam? Why the different results? Why did a Loving Father God create people who could fail? Why didn't He create people that would not fail?

You say Adam was made for the purpose of sinning? I do not think so. To me that would make God dishonest. One one side of His mouth He'd be saying, Do not sin, on the other side, Go and sin. God is not a man that He should lie. "Thou shalt not eat of that tree . . .", and, "I want you to eat from that tree contrary to My command."

It seems to me that your understanding would mean that God desires unrighteousness, death and sin.

How is it that Jesus is a person Who would not fail? We know He would not and could not fail, because His success was prophesied over and over, and "Scripture cannot be broken". And how is it then that we become truly incorruptable?

Much love!