A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Aunty Jane]

You write antichrist about the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) when you wrote "No he doesn't! Why would Jesus talk nonsense?" (this goes for @Aunty Jane and @tigger 2 since you liked keithr's post), and the proof follows.

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

You are like a broken record...give it up. You have nothing to say but what you have already said a hundred times. Will repeating it make it any more valid ? Only a fool keeps repeating the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome.

Believe whatever you like but for goodness sake, say something else because you have been shown clearly that John 8:58 has nothing to do with God’s name in Exodus 3:14-15.

I won’t respond to you again. Your knowledge of the Bible is rather pathetic IMO.

 

[Kermos]

Yes, He does. The name I AM expresses And Paul says:

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in Him, Who is the head of all rule and authority." (Colossians 2:8-10, emphasis added)


LOL! Wow. No, the name I AM is not "just a name," it is actually a statement, really, about Who He is in His position above all, even the Creator ~ His glory ~ and His omnipotence and His unchanging and eternal nature. And Christ Jesus, in John 8:58, is saying it's true of Him.

In a lesser sense, we do the same sort of thing, actually, with a lot of the names we give our children. But we can't know who or what they are, it's more about what we hope they will grow to be, really. To what you say here (sort of), the name John is derived from the Hebrew Yohanan, meaning “graced by God.” And well, that's true of all of us, really, that we are graced by God (whether we realize it or not). But John is a name that exudes strength, smarts, and kindness. So it's both a truth of the person (baby, when he is born) and a hope of the kind of person he will become. Anyway, the point is, names are important, and we follow, as much as we can anyway, in the image of God and His name in our name-giving.

But back to Jesus, and I AM, Christ Jesus is one with the Father, as He said, which seems, if you think about it, on the surface at least, to be a total misnomer, but it's most assuredly not.

Grace and peace to all.

Indeed, PinSeeker, Christ is "I AM" (John 8:58) before Abraham and after Abraham. Lord Jesus is always I AM, that is YHWH God (Exodus 3:14) for there is One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) and there is no other (Isaiah 45:5)!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Aunty Jane]

If Jesus is the agency through which all things were created, He Himself was not created. No?

Didn’t God create us to be “creators”? Didn’t he endow us with his qualities and his appreciation for beauty and to appreciate all the things in creation that he hid so that life would be a never ending journey of discovery?

If we are the creators of our own children and they in turn create their own children.....why can’t a created being also be a creator in that sense?

What was needed for Jesus to perform the miracles he showed to the people of his day? Before his baptism, Jesus was just the son of Joseph the carpenter.....but at his baptism, he received the Holy Spirit and became Jesus the Christ. It was Holy Spirit that gave him the power. I believe that Jesus as God’s “firstborn” was also given the power to create all things, as it says in Colossians 1:15-20....

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.” (NASB)

Jesus was the means that God used to bring everything else into existence...it was created “through him and for him”......Jesus is not the Creator.....his Father alone holds that title. The pre-human Jesus was the means.

 

[Kermos]

Naughty, evil Aunty Jane .....how dare I challenge the very foundational doctrine of Christendom!...the most divided and evil empire in the religious world. The one who alone claims to serve the interests of their “Lord and Savior” only to disobey all of his teachings...and to present a god to the people who never existed in official church doctrine before the 4th century.

Why did it take over 300 years to make Jesus and the holy spirit into God? Have you never wondered? 1+1+1=3...not one. This concept is entirely missing from God’s word because all the Bible writers were Jewish.....the Jews had no trinity.

If you are right then God is a liar (Deuteronomy 6:4)....But if I am right then all that you accuse me of doing, falls right back on those who believe as you do. Blasphemy carried the death penalty in Israel. No devout Jew in Jesus’ day would ever have entertained the idea that Jesus was God incarnate because that would have breached the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
“God the Father”....”God the Son”....and “God the Holy Spirit” are three gods....all put in the Father’s place. The Jews never knew such a God who was the father of Jesus Christ.


So you speak for Jesus now...? That is laughable....
Jesus had to be 100% human to pay the redemption price for the sinful human race. He had to be mortal in order to offer the same life as Adam lost for his children.... “a sinless life for a sinless life”. That was God’s law.

If Jesus was God, then his immortality would have prevented his death, proving that Jesus was not God or ever was....nor was there ever reason for God himself to come to earth to die for one of his lower creations. Even John wrote that “no man has ever seen God”....(John 1:18) How many people saw Jesus?


You really should read your Bible and see for yourself what it teaches.....

Regarding the context in which Jesus’ words appear in John 10:30, these reveal what he meant. A group of Jews had encircled him, demanding that he tell them outspokenly whether he was indeed the Christ. Answering them, Jesus stated: “I have told you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name are my witness; but you do not believe, because you are no sheep of mine. The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life; they will never be lost and no one will ever steal them from me. The Father who gave them to me is greater than anyone, and no one can steal from the Father. The Father and I are one.” (John 10:25-30 Jerusalem Bible)

Jesus also said to his Father: “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. They have now come to know that all the things you gave me are from you . . . I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those you have given me; because they are yours, and all my things are yours and yours are mine . . . Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.” (John 17:6-11)
Was Jesus saying that his disciples were part of the ‘godhead’ too?


You seem oblivious to the scriptures that make your claims erroneous....
Revelation 3:12, which was from Jesus when he had long returned to heaven.....

“The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.” (ESV)

The Father was still his God when he was no longer in the flesh. And Jesus has a new name. The Father only ever had one....YHWH, (Psalm 83:18) which he said was to be his Memorial name for all generations to come. (Exodus 3:15)



If you believe that, who is anyone to tell you differently.....we are all left to make our own decisions about what is truth...but it had better be based solely on God’s word rather than the twisted version given to it by Christendom. At the judgment, those convinced of their error will be the last to know. (Matthew 7:21-23) Some of us are going to be very disappointed with the decisions we made, but they will be all our own doing....and no one can sway the judge with excuses.

You finally got something right when you wrote "Naughty, evil Aunty Jane"! And @tigger 2 agrees with you!

The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

Aunty Jane takes Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

Aunty Jane imposes her evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

Aunty Jane serves her father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

You are a dangerously unreliable source.


Your antichrist writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[tigger 2]

Indeed, PinSeeker, Christ is "I AM" (John 8:58) before Abraham and after Abraham. Lord Jesus is always I AM, that is YHWH God (Exodus 3:14) for there is One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) and there is no other (Isaiah 45:5)!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

..........................................
Not only is the wording of Ex. 3:14 not "I am" but "I will be" in the Hebrew OT and "the being" in the Septuagint version, but everywhere else in Moses' writings the Hebrew (ehyeh) is rendered in nearly all Bibles as "I will be."

We know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.

It was even forbidden for others to say that Jesus was the Messiah - John 9:22. And, in fact, that was obviously why Stephen was stoned to death.

At Acts 7:55-58, Stephen looked up into heaven “and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of man [synonymous with the Messiah, not God] standing at the right hand of God.’ But they [the Jews] ... cast him out of the city, and stoned him.” - RSV.

Stephen was stoned, not because he claimed to be God, nor because he claimed Jesus was God (quite the contrary, in fact, as his quoted statement clearly shows: Jesus “standing at the right hand of God”) but because he was proclaiming Jesus to be the Messiah (Christ)! See The NIV Study Bible footnotes for Acts 7:56 and Mk 8:31.

Therefore, when Jesus claimed, at John 8:58, to have lived long before his first century human existence, the Jews could have perceived him as a false prophet, or a self-proclaimed “wizard,” or, more likely, as one claiming to be the Christ or Messiah (the Son of Man) and tried to stone him because of that.

The words ego eimi formed a phrase that was in very common use by first century Christians and Jews and in New Testament scriptures. It was certainly not understood (by Jews or Christians) as declaring one’s Godhood! If it could have been understood that way, we can be sure the Jews would have never applied it to themselves (as they did so frequently)!

Notice, for example, how the former blind man (John 9:9) actually identifies himself by saying “ego eimi,” but none of the other Jews present, even for a moment, understood him to be claiming to be Jehovah!

And Jesus earlier (John 6:20) clearly identified himself by saying to his frightened disciples: ego eimi. None of his disciples considered that to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. In fact, most trinitarian-translated Bibles render Jesus’ words identifying himself here as “It is I.” E.g., ASV; AMP; CJB; DARBY; DRA; ESV; GNT; GNV; HCSB; ISV; JB; KJV; KJ21; TLB; MEV; MLB; MOUNCE; NAB; NASB; NCV; NEB; NET; NIV; NKJV; NLV; NRSV; REB; RSV; WEB; and WE.

The Gospel writers have clearly shown Jesus applying the term ego eimi to himself and meaning “I am the Christ.” Mark 13:6 shows Jesus saying, “I am he [literally just ego eimi alone, ‘I AM’]” - NEB. The parallel account at Luke 21:8 agrees. But the other parallel account by Matthew shows what Jesus actually meant by the “absolute” ego eimi in those parallel accounts of Mark and Luke: “I am the Messiah” - Matt. 24:5 - NEB.

Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).

Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?

But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!

“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.

C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”

There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!

But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”

In the same way, John near the end of his Gospel wrote that his work was written down that you may believe that Jesus is (not God, but) the Christ the son of God". - John 20:31.
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

 

[PinSeeker]

There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here!

Only ~ "only," wow ~ that the Jews wanted to stone Him for blasphemy:

"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.' So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple."

No, no suggestion at all. My goodness.

They asked no questions concerning such a thing.

Right, because they needed ask no question. They knew exactly what He was saying.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

You arent seeing clearly. The Jewish religion served the true living God, 0 doubt. They served-YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God-0 doubt. God does not change, He was changed at a council of Catholicism around 381. No trinity was being served at the first council of Nicea in 325 because the true God was being served-a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah)- 0 doubt. The34,000 trinity based religions are a divided house, they will not stand. They 100% fail 1 Corinthians 1:10--Unity of thought( all of Gods truth) no division. Catholicism mistranslated errors in to fit false council teachings-0 doubt.

The Jews were lost as to God, they knew of him somewhat and their were the Prophets of God, but the majority of Jews were only religious, not Saved, now when in history the Jews turned their back to God they failed and when they were with God they were strong with the religion of God ?
Because a Religion does not save !
One needs Christ Jesus in your life to be Saved. that means that you must be truly born again to know God, as he is Emmanuel God with us ?
Holy Moses pointed to Christ Jesus to come for them who were worthy of God. and yes the worthy Jews = Israel were saved when Christ went to Heaven.

Two worthy Jews of God in the Bible, one Jacob and the other Nathaniel, they both got the name Israel given, one by an Angel and the other by Jesus Christ him self ! proven worthy of God in fact. Now Jesus said what Nathaniel was and what he would see ? do you know what Jesus said to Nathaniel, or is that all hidden from your Church like it is nowadays in every church.

I am a Catholic and anyone who is not a Catholic is not worthy of God in fact.

Just because the Roman Church claims to be Catholic does not make it so ? just as the C of E claims to be Catholic and Lutheran claims to be Catholic. because any Church that does not make such a claim is clearly an idiot.
The Jews were not Catholic because they did not know God, remember who rejected Jesus ? for if they knew who Jews was they would of been worthy of God ? now only they who were worthy of God did have faith that Jesus was ?

One can see that some Jews had faith in Jesus, because they were worthy of Holy Moses in fact.
The other Jews were only religious dolts wrapped up in Mans works of their Talmud. and their god is the Talmud, a nasty work of Man, racist to the extreme even far worse than any of the Nazi ranting's in fact. nothing is so evil as the Talmud books in all history, the Talmud takes the cake, even worse than all of the Islamic Books.

Jesus was pointing to the Talmud whore in that they were, of their Father who was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.
Any person who is not truly Saved Born again is just like the ones who came against Jesus. for they do not know him in fact, but are carnal beast in fact, Lost ! Idiots ! and fools who are under the deceptions and delusions of this world.

 

[Keiw]

The Jews were lost as to God, they knew of him somewhat and their were the Prophets of God, but the majority of Jews were only religious, not Saved, now when in history the Jews turned their back to God they failed and when they were with God they were strong with the religion of God ?
Because a Religion does not save !
One needs Christ Jesus in your life to be Saved. that means that you must be truly born again to know God, as he is Emmanuel God with us ?
Holy Moses pointed to Christ Jesus to come for them who were worthy of God. and yes the worthy Jews = Israel were saved when Christ went to Heaven.

Two worthy Jews of God in the Bible, one Jacob and the other Nathaniel, they both got the name Israel given, one by an Angel and the other by Jesus Christ him self ! proven worthy of God in fact. Now Jesus said what Nathaniel was and what he would see ? do you know what Jesus said to Nathaniel, or is that all hidden from your Church like it is nowadays in every church.

I am a Catholic and anyone who is not a Catholic is not worthy of God in fact.

Just because the Roman Church claims to be Catholic does not make it so ? just as the C of E claims to be Catholic and Lutheran claims to be Catholic. because any Church that does not make such a claim is clearly an idiot.
The Jews were not Catholic because they did not know God, remember who rejected Jesus ? for if they knew who Jews was they would of been worthy of God ? now only they who were worthy of God did have faith that Jesus was ?

One can see that some Jews had faith in Jesus, because they were worthy of Holy Moses in fact.
The other Jews were only religious dolts wrapped up in Mans works of their Talmud. and their god is the Talmud, a nasty work of Man, racist to the extreme even far worse than any of the Nazi ranting's in fact. nothing is so evil as the Talmud books in all history, the Talmud takes the cake, even worse than all of the Islamic Books.

Jesus was pointing to the Talmud whore in that they were, of their Father who was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.
Any person who is not truly Saved Born again is just like the ones who came against Jesus. for they do not know him in fact, but are carnal beast in fact, Lost ! Idiots ! and fools who are under the deceptions and delusions of this world.

Your own translations expose your religion as false. The works through the centuries expose them as false.
The Israelite religious leaders rejected Jesus because they were apostocised when he showed up. They however never broke Gods laws except when it came to Jesus. A man had 7 days to build a defense from his arrest. They tried Jesus the first night out of hatred. But--They still knew exactly who the true God was then and today. Not a trinity. He never was and never will be. Jesus was not with the religion that came out of Rome.
Your religion allowed their young men to kill the members of your own religion( allies) for Adolf Hitler= pure darkness. It takes throwing Jesus away to accomplish that.

 

[Kermos]

The discussion with the Jews was not about "who God is". Read it again:

(31) Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples.
(32) You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
(33) They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?”
(34) Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin.
(35) A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever.
(36) If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
(37) I know that you are Abraham’s offspring, yet you seek to kill me, because my word finds no place in you.
(38) I say the things which I have seen with my Father; and you also do the things which you have seen with your father.”
(39) They answered him, “Our father is Abraham.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.
(40) But now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. Abraham didn’t do this.
(41) You do the works of your father.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father, God.”
(42) Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.
(43) Why don’t you understand my speech? Because you can’t hear my word.
(44) You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn’t stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
(45) But because I tell the truth, you don’t believe me.
(46) Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
(47) He who is of God hears the words of God. For this cause you don’t hear, because you are not of God.”
(48) Then the Jews answered him, “Don’t we say well that you are a Samaritan, and have a demon?”
(49) Jesus answered, “I don’t have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me.
(50) But I don’t seek my own glory. There is one who seeks and judges.
(51) Most certainly, I tell you, if a person keeps my word, he will never see death.”
(52) Then the Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and you say, ‘If a man keeps my word, he will never taste of death.’
(53) Are you greater than our father, Abraham, who died? The prophets died. Who do you make yourself out to be?”
(54) Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is our God.
(55) You have not known him, but I know him. If I said, ‘I don’t know him,’ I would be like you, a liar. But I know him, and keep his word.
(56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.”
(57) The Jews therefore said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
(58) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I am.”

Note that Jesus did not say "I am God", he said that God was his Father and that Jesus knows God.

Truly, Jesus establishes the focus of "who God is" in the conversation at the outset, and the Word of God, being Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14), says "“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31-32) - the Word of God, being Jesus the Truth (John 14:6), speaks about people being in the Word of God.

In effect, in John 8:31-32, Jesus opens with "the Word of God will make you free", and only God can rightly make a person free from the bondage of sin. This is about "who God is" working in men.

The conversation contains talk of God the Father in Heaven within several verses inside the John 8:31-58 passage, such as "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father" (John 8:38).

But, talk of other fathers occured as well, for example the Jews said "Abraham is our father" (John 8:39). Another example is Jesus telling the Jews and people that disbelieve in Jesus' diety that "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

And, here is some, but not all, of the talk about "who God is" with the Word of God saying "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God" (John 8:47) for God opens the ears of the deaf as part of "who God is".

Here is more about "who God is" when the Word of God says that Jesus is everlasting God with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), and the Jews "picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

The Jews had stones to stone Jesus immediately after Jesus says "I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Therefore, in the John 8:31-58 passage, Jesus can refer to Himself as Man and as God - just as He can refer to God as His Father and He can refer to Himself as God with "I AM" (John 8:58), yes the Word of God is YHWH God with "I AM" (Exodus 3:14).

YOU LIED ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD FOR HE SAYS "I AM" (JOHN 8:58, EXODUS 3:14).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Really ... What Bible are you reading??? You would do well to study the Greek word "forever" in Luke.... AION

That very greek word is used as follows....

“Let us look at how the word aion is used in a number of passages. About 37 times in the New Testament it is rendered "world," twice as "worlds," twice as "ages," and once as "course." Every place where the word "eternal" appears, with but one exception, it is a translation of this word AION or its adjective form AIONIOS. Twice it is rendered "evermore." Every place where the word "everlasting" appears, but one, it is this same word or its adjective form. With but thirteen exceptions, every place where the word "ever" appears it is the same word or its adjective form. And aside from all this confusion, the word also appears in the plural, and in a number of confusing combinations, such as "the aion of the aion," "the aion of the aions," and "the aions of the aions," etc.

Some of the passages where AION is found will give us added information concerning it.

In Eph. 2:7 we find, "in the ages (aions) to come."

In Col. 1:26 we find, "the mystery which has been hid from ages (aions). "

In Eph. 2:2 we find "you walked, according to the course aion of this world."

In Heb. 1:2 we find, "by whom also He made the worlds (aions)."

In Heb. 11:3 we find, "the worlds (aions) were formed by the Word of God."

In about fifteen instances, such as Mat. 12:32,1 Cor. 1:20, etc., we find it rendered "this world (aion)". Twice we find "this present world (aion). "

In Gal. 1:4 we find, "deliver us from this present evil world (aion)."

In Eph. 6:12 we find, "the rulers of the darkness of this world (aion)."

In 11 Cor. 4:4 we find, "the god of this world (aion)."

In I Cor. 2:6 we find, "the wisdom of this world (aion)."

In Lk. 16:8 we find, "the children of this world (aion)."

In Mk. 4:19 we find, "the cares of this world (aion)."

How much more understandable it would be if the translators had used the word age instead of world!

In Mk. 10:30 we find that there is not only this present aion, which is evil, but also "the world (aion) to come."

In Lk. 20:35 we find, "but they that shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage."

In Heb. 6:5 we find, "and have tasted the powers of the world (aion) to come."

And in Lk. 1:70, Jn. 9:32, etc., we find that the aion had a beginning: "since the world (aion) began."

And now in reviewing the Scriptures we have just quoted, we note that this aion is something which has a king; it has princes; it is in darkness; it had a beginning; it has an ending; it is evil; it has wisdom; it has children who marry; it has cares. The aions we find were made by Christ, simply through His spoken Word, and we also find in Col. 1:26 that the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory, has been hidden from these aions.

Now, if aion means eternal, consider how ridiculous the Word of God would be! The Holy Spirit would be found saying, "the mystery which has been hid from eternities;" "the mystery of Christ which in other eternities was not made known;" "in the eternities to come;" "You walked according to the eternity of this world;" "by whom also He made the eternities;" "the rulers of the darkness of this eternity;" "now once in the end of the eternities has He appeared;" "the harvest is the end of the eternity;" "since eternity began;" "in the eternities to come," etc. etc. Let the scholars whose business it is delve into the many intricacies of expression, and worry over the many grammatical combinations. Suffice it to say here that there have been "aions" in the past, there is this present "aion," and there are "aions" to come. And these all combined make up TIME, encompassing the whole of the progressive plan and program of God for the development of His creation.

Our King James version renders it, together with the adjective aionios as: "age, course, eternal, for ever, evermore, for ever and ever, everlasting, world, beginning of the world, world began, world without end." What a horrible mixture! “

Now what does Paul teach.... that matches with Aion in scripture...

1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (Jesus) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (GOD). 28 When all things are subjected to Him (Jesus), then the Son (Jesus) Himself also will be subjected to the One (God) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

Scripture gets all screwed up when you think God's chosen/begotten Christ is actually God Himself!!!

Kermos... Please think before you post! I know it's not something promoted in your Church... Your told to sit and listen every Sunday and keep your mouth shut and believe what your told!!

Paul

By God's grace, for God's glory, God made me well aware of the Greek word "αἰών" (Strong's 165 - aion) and it's variants such as it's plural form like "αἰῶνας" meaning "ages" long before you posted your attempt to confuse Gabriel's words of "He will reign over the house of Jacob to the ages. And of His kingdom there will be no end!" (Luke 1:33).

The English words "ages" and "forever" are accurate, equivalent, and true translations for "αἰῶνας" (aionas) in Luke 1:33.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

You, Pierac, unless you believe that Jesus is I AM, you will die in your sins.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Brakelite]

Not only is the wording of Ex. 3:14 not "I am" but "I will be" in the Hebrew OT and "the being" in the Septuagint version, but everywhere else in Moses' writings the Hebrew (ehyeh) is rendered "I will be."

We know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.

It was even forbidden for others to say that Jesus was the Messiah - John 9:22. And, in fact, that was obviously why Stephen was stoned to death.

At Acts 7:55-58, Stephen looked up into heaven “and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of man [synonymous with the Messiah, not God] standing at the right hand of God.’ But they [the Jews] ... cast him out of the city, and stoned him.” - RSV.

Stephen was stoned, not because he claimed to be God, nor because he claimed Jesus was God (quite the contrary, in fact, as his quoted statement clearly shows: Jesus “standing at the right hand of God”) but because he was proclaiming Jesus to be the Messiah (Christ)! See The NIV Study Bible footnotes for Acts 7:56 and Mk 8:31.

Therefore, when Jesus claimed, at John 8:58, to have lived long before his first century human existence, the Jews could have perceived him as a false prophet, or a self-proclaimed “wizard,” or, more likely, as one claiming to be the Christ or Messiah (the Son of Man) and tried to stone him because of that.

The words ego eimi formed a phrase that was in very common use by first century Christians and Jews and in New Testament scriptures. It was certainly not understood (by Jews or Christians) as declaring one’s Godhood! If it could have been understood that way, we can be sure the Jews would have never applied it to themselves (as they did so frequently)!

Notice, for example, how the former blind man (John 9:9) actually identifies himself by saying “ego eimi,” but none of the other Jews present, even for a moment, understood him to be claiming to be Jehovah!

And Jesus earlier (John 6:20) clearly identified himself by saying to his frightened disciples: ego eimi. None of his disciples considered that to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. In fact, most trinitarian-translated Bibles render Jesus’ words identifying himself here as “It is I.” E.g., ASV; AMP; CJB; DARBY; DRA; ESV; GNT; GNV; HCSB; ISV; JB; KJV; KJ21; TLB; MEV; MLB; MOUNCE; NAB; NASB; NCV; NEB; NET; NIV; NKJV; NLV; NRSV; REB; RSV; WEB; and WE.

The Gospel writers have clearly shown Jesus applying the term ego eimi to himself and meaning “I am the Christ.” Mark 13:6 shows Jesus saying, “I am he [literally just ego eimi alone, ‘I AM’]” - NEB. The parallel account at Luke 21:8 agrees. But the other parallel account by Matthew shows what Jesus actually meant by the “absolute” ego eimi in those parallel accounts of Mark and Luke: “I am the Messiah” - Matt. 24:5 - NEB.

Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).

Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?

But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!

“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.

C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”

There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!

But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”

In the same way, John near the end of his Gospel wrote that his work was written down that you may believe that Jesus is (not God, but) the Christ the son of God". - John 20:31.
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

Being the Christ wasn't what concerned the Jews. It was Jesus' claim to Sonship. "Are you the Christ, the Son of God?". It was when Jesus claimed God as His Father that they conspired against Him. On one sense, all Jews claimed God as their Father, as do we. But Jesus claimed Sonship in the absolute sense. And that is what identified Jesus as deity in the highest sense. It is true that Jesus never claimed to be God. That would have been confusing as even today, many Christians believe the Son and the Father are one and the same person. But no. Jesus had no qualms about being identified as Peter said, "the Christ, the Son of the living God". And Jesus deliberately identified Himself as the son of man in order to reveal and accentuate His humanity and His closeness with those He loved.

 

[keithr]

Truly, Jesus establishes the focus of "who God is" in the conversation at the outset, and the Word of God, being Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14), says "“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:31-32) - the Word of God, being Jesus the Truth (John 14:6), speaks about people being in the Word of God.

YOU LIED ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD FOR HE SAYS "I AM" (JOHN 8:58, EXODUS 3:14).

The outset of the conversation is verse 12:

(12) Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”​

Jesus also said, while preaching the sermon on the mount, Matthew 5:14 (WEB):

(14) You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can’t be hidden.​

I've tried to enlighten you, but you can't receive it, so I will say no more on this subject. I shake the dust off my feet.

Luke 9:5

(5) As many as don’t receive you, when you depart from that city, shake off even the dust from your feet for a testimony against them.​

Matthew 10:14-15

(14) Whoever doesn’t receive you, nor hear your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
(15) Most certainly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.​

 

[Kermos]

No... It is you... whom are taking Colossians 1:15 out of context...

The word “first-born” comes to the New Testament with a rich Hebrew heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word “first-born.” The Greek word for “first” can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The “first-born” may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as “my first-born”… preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 49:3)

Although Reubin is “first-born” in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his “first-born” even though Ephraim’s brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to “let my son go that he may worship me.” (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy above, God announces that this king’s superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term “first-born” to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, “He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead” (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the “first-born” of all creation,” here the Son is the "first-born from the dead.” If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ returned is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being. To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation."
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Remember, God is eternal without beginning or End.... Yet scripture teaches over and over again about the beginning of Jesus the Chirst...
Do the Math!!!
Paul

You persist in shredding the context of Colossians in and around Colossians 1:15, so in your heart you make yourself out to be your own god of your own making by changing that which the Apostle Paul wrote.

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

See, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Subsequent to Colossians 1:15, we find "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

The clause "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

All other references to firstborn must be taken in relation to the above explanation.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

The following are undeniable facts of reality:

From Moses on up until this very day, the Israelite religion teach, serve and worship a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah)--That means while Jesus attended those places of worship was taught, served and worshipped a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah) his Father, as was every bible writer.
One cannot just throw facts away for errors and think they have Gods favor.
I tell you truly--the capitol G God in the last line at John 1:1 is 100% error. Your scholars know it. Fact-Only the Father is called Ho Theos in the NT= The God. there is only 1 God. a god means-has godlike qualities--God did it all through Jesus-Acts2:22-1Cor 8:5-6

us in Genesis = YHWH(Jehovah) (and his master worker( Jesus, a created being, he tells you so at Prov 8.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

 

[Keiw]

You have been exposed as a liar about the Bible, and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an unreliable source.

I havent been exposed as a liar. I presented facts. The problem is you do not know Jesus that is why you wont believe he is the speaker at Proverbs 8 because you have believed errors. I seriously doubt any trying to actually serve God lies intentionally, they can however make errors, especially since in 34,000 different religions claiming to be christian, all with different truths on certain matters are erring. Do you believe lies are taught intentionally? Because i believe trinity scholars know 100% they arent teaching truth. Truth has become abundant here in these last days-Daniel 12:4--They know 100% Jesus is not called Ho Theos. They as well know the Israelites served a single being God named-YHWH(Jehovah) The Israelites served the true God.

 

[Kermos]

.........................................................
Since every other use of ehyeh found in Moses' writings is translated into English as "I will be," it more than likely has the same meaning at Exodus 3:14 (compare Ex. 3:12). A number of respected trinitarian sources agree.

As for Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint, it actually reads "I am THE BEING; and he said, 'Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you." - Brenton. The capitalized words are exactly as Brenton translated. Common sense and Brenton's actual translation show that God was revealing himself as "the being" only. "I am" is not part of that name but is used as it normally is in statements.
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

Yes, let's look at the Word of God in verse twelve "Because I AM with you, and this is to you the sign that I have sent you: in your bringing out the people from Egypt -- you do serve God on this mount" (Exodus 3:12, YLT).

Look! The Hebrew word "ehyeh" is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:12! Let's look at several more Old Testament verses with ehyeh in them in this post.

The "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular in Hebrew).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where your contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKah - the Hebrew Bible.

Now look at these other TaNaKah scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

Truthfully, in the Hebrew language, Exodus 3:14 has ehyeh which is properly translated as "I AM" in all 3 occurrences in:

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” (Exodus 3:14).

Lord Jesus uses "I AM" (John 8:58) to refer back to the whole passage about God's name and work in Exodus 3:14-15. Christ's words of "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) applies to both the Hebrew Exodus 3:14 and the Septuagint Exodus 3:14.

 

[Kermos]

Commenting that you think that a prohecy was fulfilled in a certain year, is not adding to Scripture! Many people believe that Jesus was crucified in 33 AD, but 33 AD is not mentioned in the Bible - do you think they're adding to Scripture too?

In @Keiw's heart, keiw wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect changing Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth" in keiw's heart.

Is it your contention that 1914 is the year for Revelation 6:4?

 

[Kermos]

You clearly can't seem to understand the conversation that is recorded in John 8:31-58. I highlighted some of the conversation in post #570 to make it easier for you to see the what was being discussed (it's not about who God is), but you still can't understand it. I think Jesus' words in verse 43 and 47 applies to you:

(43) Why don’t you understand my speech? Because you can’t hear my word.
(47) He who is of God hears the words of God. For this cause you don’t hear, because you are not of God.”

What was the Jews response to those verses? They accused Jesus of being a Samaritan and having a demon (verse 48)! Similarly you have reacted by accusing me and two others who disagree with your teaching as writing "antichrist about the Word of God". Because of their lack of understanding they took up stones to throw at him (verse 59), I hope you wouldn't do that if you could!


The context of the conversation does not refer back to Exodus 3:14, any more than John the Baptist was not referring back to Exodus 3:14 when he confessed "I am not the Christ" (John 1:20), etc.. The conversation starts back in verse 12 with:

(12) Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

The Jews didn't think that Jesus was claiming to be God when he said "I am [ego eimi] the light of the World", nor when he said "I am" (ego eimi) in verses 18, 23 (twice), 24, and 28. Nor did they think that when he said it in verse 58. They wanted to stone him because he was claiming to have been in continuous existence since before Abraham was born, yet they knew he was les than 50 years old and they knew of his parents, so he was claiming to be more than a normal man, which they could not believe.


Jesus probably said (in Aramaic) something like, "From before Abraham came into existence, I have been in continuous existence". The translators who translated John's Greek recording of it into English chose to translate it as "Before Abraham was, I am", or "Before Abraham's coming—I am" (YLT), but that is not a very accurate translation.


But Jesus was simply saying that he had been alive from before the birth of Abraham, and that he was not lying when he said "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad” (verse 56).


You cannot deduce that from Jesus' words.


And all resurrected Christians, who will become immortal!

Here are some quotes from what The Trinity Delusion website (The Trinity Delusion: John 8:58) says about John 5:58:

The Trinitarian interpretation directly contradicts Jesus' own words in at least four explicitly obvious ways:

(1) Jesus had just said that if he testified about himself, his testimony is not true (Jn 5:31; 8:17-18). But that is precisely what Trinitarians have Jesus doing at John 8:58 in direct contradiction to what he said.

(2) Jesus also had just said that if he glorified himself concerning who he is, his glory would mean absolutely nothing (8:54). But Trinitarians contradict Jesus again insisting that he did indeed glorify himself at John 8:58 and he did so in the highest way possible, and instead of meaning nothing as Jesus insisted, Trinitarians contradict him and insist it means everything.

Trinitarians talk about of both sides of their mouth concerning Jesus. On one hand, they will admit that Philippians 2:5-9 says that Jesus made himself nothing and humbled himself. On the other hand, they have Jesus glorifying himself as God Almighty.

(3) Trinitarians also say the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they knew exactly what he was saying at John 8:58. But yet again, Trinitarians directly contradict Jesus who had just said these Jews could not understand what he was saying because they were not of God and were children of the devil (8:43-47).

(4) Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone he was God's Anointed One (Matthew 16:20; Luke 9:20-21). But we are expected to believe that Jesus was going around Israel declaring himself to be Yahweh their God. It's a ridiculously absurd contradiction.

Jesus' own testimony in this selfsame dialogue decisively demonstrates to us that the Trinitarian interpretation of John 8 is absolutely impossible since their interpretation violently contradicts what Jesus had just said. Trinitarians are effectively demonstrating that they do not hear Jesus anymore than the Jews did in this dialogue nor do they even care. They care far more about promoting their false doctrine than hearing Jesus.


In the Greek Septuagint, the actual divine name revealed to Moses was not, "ego eimi" as Trinitarians are suggesting to everyone. God's divine name in this Greek translation was "ego eimi ho ōn" which means "I am the being" or "I am the existence" or "I am the existent one" or some similar idea. Also, English translations which read as, "I AM sent me to you" are not translating "ego eimi sent me to you" from the Greek. The Greek actually reads "ho ōn sent me to you." (Exodus 3:14). In other words, it does not say, "Ego eimi sent me to you." This Trinitarian claim is precariously perched upon a farce that God's divine name in Greek is simply ego eimi. But it isn't.

Observe how these two men identify themselves by saying, "ego eimi."

And Asahel pursued Abner, and as he went, he turned neither to the right hand nor to the left from following Abner. Then Abner looked behind him and said, “Is that you, Asahel?” And he answered, "I AM" (i.e. “It is I.”). 2 Samuel 2:19-20
Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, “Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?” Others were saying, “This is he,” still others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, "I AM" John 9:8-9
This Trinitarian claim is usually presented as if Jesus suddenly broke out the words ego eimi which no man ever used, in order to identify himself in a shock and awe manner which provoked the Jews to anger since they would automatically recognize ego eimi to be the divine name of their God. However, the contextual facts demonstrate this is absurd and just the opposite is true. During this very same dialogue with the Jews in John chapter 8, Jesus used the term ego eimi several times before he used it at verse 8:58 (8:12,16,18,23,24,28). And through those many utterances of ego eimi by Jesus during this selfsame dialogue, not one of these Jews at any time ever supposed Jesus was referring to their God. The use of the term ego eimi never even caused them to raise an eyebrow. The Jews had been asking Jesus who he claimed to be. In that context, Jesus had used the term ego eimi twice before in a very similar manner and they never even blinked. This fact alone clearly demonstrates that the Jews did not think the use of this term was a reference to the divine name of their God.

You wrote "But Jesus was simply saying that he had been alive from before the birth of Abraham" and you wrote "You cannot deduce that from Jesus' words" with respect to "JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time", yet your two clauses contradict each other with respect to the ever living Jesus proclaiming this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58). The Truth according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Resurrected Christians are NOT everlasting going back in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

Your heart as revealed in your clauses, quoted above, reject Jesus and does not receive His sayings, and the Word of God says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

You are under the delusional, self-contradictory confusion of the evil one because you deny that Jesus is God according to the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) which this declaration occurs in the passage about "who God is".

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[tigger 2]

Yes, let's look at the Word of God in verse twelve "Because I AM with you, and this is to you the sign that I have sent you: in your bringing out the people from Egypt -- you do serve God on this mount" (Exodus 3:12, YLT).

Look! The Hebrew word "ehyeh" is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:12! Let's look at several more Old Testament verses with ehyeh in them in this post.

The "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular in Hebrew).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where your contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKah - the Hebrew Bible.

Now look at these other TaNaKah scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

Truthfully, in the Hebrew language, Exodus 3:14 has ehyeh which is properly translated as "I AM" in all 3 occurrences in:

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” (Exodus 3:14).

Lord Jesus uses "I AM" (John 8:58) to refer back to the whole passage about God's name and work in Exodus 3:14-15. Christ's words of "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) applies to both the Hebrew Exodus 3:14 and the Septuagint Exodus 3:14.

................................
Gen. 26:3 - Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; - KJV and more than 45 others.

Genesis 26:3 - Bible Gateway Kermos had to go all the way to the bottom of the list of the Bibles in this link to find one which ‘proves’ his point.

Gen. 31:3 (same as above)
Ex. 3:12 (all but two say “I will [shall] be.”
Ex. 4:12 (only Young’s uses “I am.”
Ex. 4:15 (only Young’s uses “I am.”
Deut. 31:23 (only Young’s in this list)

Needless to say, the KJV uses “I will be” in every one of these places. Does anyone really wonder why they used “I am” only at Ex. 3:14?

I think I already exposed the fallacy that the Septuagint uses "I am" as part of what God said what he was to be called at Ex. 3:14.

Nevertheless here is a more complete study of Ex. 3:14:
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 3

 

[Kermos]

The answer is in the word “by ” better known in the Greek as “Dia”

G1223
διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: - account (4), after (2), afterward (1), always *(2), because (111), between *(1), briefly *(1), charge *(1), constantly (1), continually *(6), during (1), forever *(1), gives (1), means (3), over (1), presence (1), reason (40), sake (41), sakes (5), since (1), so then *(1), so *(1), therefore *(16), this reason *(1), this *(1), though (1), through (225), through the agency (1), through *(1), view (2), way (3), what (1), why (3), why *(27).

And the little word “of” better known by the Greek word ek

1537

ἐκ, ἐξ ek ex ek, ex

A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

Whom is posting evil lies now... Kermos? It's you whom are lacking in Biblical Greek ... instead your reading a translation and think you know what it actually says... Hope this helps you understand the word "Through" in your translation from Greek

Paul

Let's look at the word "through" (Strong's 1223, διά, dia, through, on account of, because of) in "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

1223 diá (a preposition) – properly, across (to the other side), back-and-forth to go all the way through, "successfully across" ("thoroughly").1223 (diá) is also commonly used as a prefix and lend the same idea ("thoroughly," literally, "successfully" across to the other side).

[1223 (diá) is a root of the English term diameter ("across to the other side, through"). Before a vowel, dia is simply written di̓.]

John conveyed that all creation was created because of Jesus - a successful work by Jesus.

The Greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537, ἐκ, ek, from, from out of) means "out", so you conjure up definitions like "of" for "ek" to satisfy your wicked thoughts such as your damning delusion that Jesus is not God.

Now, back to your evil writing (by way of @Keiw).

Behold your evil lie for you wrote "Theone whom he created all other things through."; on the other hand, the Apostle John wrote "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

You added the word "other".

You "all other things".

John "All things".

Since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus cannot be created for Jesus created "All things"; furthermore, since John proclaimed "All things", then Jesus is Creator God, that is, YHWH God.

Your evil deception includes that you think Jesus is not YHWH God, so you disbelieve in Jesus.

Now, this brings us to the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

The Hebrew word Elohim is the English word God in Genesis 1:26.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The Hebrew word Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.

The plurality of "Us" matches precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

Incorporating John's message of "All things" (John 1:3) with "Let Us make man" (Genesis 1:26) proves that the "Us" absolutely demonstrates that Jesus is YHWH God because the "Us" is "God" in Genesis 1:26.

Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).