A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Keiw]

Keep praying to the LORD for understanding His TRUTH for without it, no one can find the Way.

There is many errors in trinity translations by the religion that came out of Rome who held 5 councils because they didnt know truth and made things up and translated errors in to fit those teachings. Their own encyclopedia says the apostles knew nothing of God being a trinity. They got that correct. The Israelites who serve the true living God never served a trinity while serving him. That is fact.

 

[David in NJ]

There is many errors in trinity translations by the religion that came out of Rome who held 5 councils because they didnt know truth and made things up and translated errors in to fit those teachings. Their own encyclopedia says the apostles knew nothing of God being a trinity. They got that correct. The Israelites who serve the true living God never served a trinity while serving him. That is fact.

Well i detest the pagan Rome harlot as much as God hates her = Revelation ch18

The Apostle John knew vividly of Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit.

What is MORE IMPORTANT then that is GENESIS, EXODUS, ISAIAH, Gospel of John, Acts, Revelation that speak of this Truth.

 

[David in NJ]

T

Thank you David but I already have peace with my God.

In what way is Jesus claiming to be “God” by telling his disciples that he was “the way, the truth and the life”? Does the number three always mean a trinity to you? Apparently so.....the scriptures you refer to have no validity since you misconstrue them and see only what you want to see in them.


I "heard the voice of God” (spiritually speaking) 50 years ago when he called me out of false “Christianity” and taught me the truth from his word. It is something I have studied very carefully ever since. I have made sure that my beliefs are soundly supported by the Bible.....and that all beliefs and doctrines are not adopted from false worship.....Christendom is full of them. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

Because you have no reply to any scripture you have been given, but continue to parrot off what your church has taught you (for who knows how long) I assume that you don’t want to know the truth but are happy believing the lies, because to admit you might have been wrong for so long is unthinkable......so be it....I sincerely hope that God will call you out of that rabble and teach you HIS truth. He won't make that choice for you however.

It’s the “harvest time”, when Jesus will send his angels out to gather the “weeds” of false Christianity, “sown by the devil” and dispose of them.
Since “few” are on the road to life, it is up to all of us to make sure that what we have been taught is not a clever counterfeit concocted by the devil, designed to ensnare the masses who never read the scriptures for themselves.

Christendom's version of Christianity IMO, is not even close to what Jesus taught and they disobey him in every way. The "mother church" has many 'daughters' who are all as guilty as she is for promoting the devil's lies. God knows who is teaching the truth.....I wish you...that TRUTH.

Apostle John - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God = 3x and not by chance

Genesis - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Apostle John - All things were made through Him(the Word), and without Him nothing was made that was made = Clear as DAY

Genesis - Let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likeness. = 3x and not by chance

WHO are the THREE of Genesis = answer = Abraham Isaac Jacob
WHO are the THREE of Genesis = answer Confirmed = Exodus 3:15

Elohim also told Moses,
“Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, Elohe(Plural) of your fathers—Elohe Abraham, Elohe Isaac, Elohe Jacob—has sent me to you.’
This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Elohe Father Elohe Son Elohe Holy Spirit = Elohe(plural) 3x by Design

The LORD knew exactly what HE was saying in = "I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE" 3x not by random chance.

i found out the TRUTH - no man told me - the Holy Spirit showed me His Truth in the Word because HE looked upon me and my heart as i hid myself before HIM on my knees in prayer and worship only desiring the TRUTH.

i loath the pagan Roman harlot just as My Heavenly Father does = Revelation ch18

These verses are just a few of many Father Son Holy Spirit are One = 3 are One = the Shema

 

[Aunty Jane]

Apostle John - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God = 3x and not by chance

Genesis - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Apostle John - All things were made through Him(the Word), and without Him nothing was made that was made = Clear as DAY

Genesis - Let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likeness. = 3x and not by chance

WHO are the THREE of Genesis = answer = Abraham Isaac Jacob
WHO are the THREE of Genesis = answer Confirmed = Exodus 3:15

Elohim also told Moses,
“Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, Elohe(Plural) of your fathers—Elohe Abraham, Elohe Isaac, Elohe Jacob—has sent me to you.’
This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Elohe Father Elohe Son Elohe Holy Spirit = Elohe(plural) 3x by Design

The LORD knew exactly what HE was saying in = "I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE" 3x not by random chance.

i found out the TRUTH - no man told me - the Holy Spirit showed me His Truth in the Word because HE looked upon me and my heart as i hid myself before HIM on my knees in prayer and worship only desiring the TRUTH.

i loath the pagan Roman harlot just as My Heavenly Father does = Revelation ch18

These verses are just a few of many Father Son Holy Spirit are One = 3 are One = the Shema

David, you realize that you are simply repeating the party line...its still not valid as you have been shown already.....the way you are reading those scriptures disagrees with the whole Bible. The Shema is not three.....the apostles were not worshippers of Jesus....They were taught by Jesus to worship only the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6....Paul wrote...
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."
"ONE GOD the FATHER....AND...ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST....just two separate entities.....and no HOLY SPIRIT is mentioned.

John 17:3....Jesus said in prayer....
"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."
Again no Holy Spirit......do we not need to "know" the Holy Spirit to gain everlasting life? Why is "he" missing?

In acts 4:27, what is Jesus called?
"For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed".
How can Jesus be "God" if he is called "God's holy servant"? Is God a servant of his other equal self?

There is so much scripture that fights with what you believe....but the Bible does not contradict itself......men contradict the Bible....and they make God into an incomprehensible enigma. How can humans get the simple Father/Son concept so muddled?

 

[keithr]

Seeing as it is nearly Easter (it's Good Friday tomorrow), it's a good time to consider the words of Jesus when he was hanging on the cross. He said, Matthew 27:46 (WEB):

(46) About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”​

Yet another example of Jesus referring to God (YHWH) as his God, thereby implying that Jesus was not God. He was quoting Psalm 22, pointing that Scripture to those who heard him, for it was prophetic of his crucifixion:

Psalm 22 (WEB):

For the Chief Musician; set to “The Doe of the Morning.” A Psalm by David.
(1) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
(2) My God, I cry in the daytime, but you don’t answer; in the night season, and am not silent.
(3) But you are holy, you who inhabit the praises of Israel.
(4) Our fathers trusted in you. They trusted, and you delivered them.
(5) They cried to you, and were delivered. They trusted in you, and were not disappointed.
(6) But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.
(7) All those who see me mock me. They insult me with their lips. They shake their heads, saying,
(8) “He trusts in Yahweh. Let him deliver him. Let him rescue him, since he delights in him.”
(9) But you brought me out of the womb. You made me trust while at my mother’s breasts.
(10) I was thrown on you from my mother’s womb. You are my God since my mother bore me.
(11) Don’t be far from me, for trouble is near. For there is no one to help.
(12) Many bulls have surrounded me. Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
(13) They open their mouths wide against me, lions tearing prey and roaring.
(14) I am poured out like water. All my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is melted within me.
(15) My strength is dried up like a potsherd. My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth. You have brought me into the dust of death.
(16) For dogs have surrounded me. A company of evildoers have enclosed me. They have pierced my hands and feet.
(17) I can count all of my bones. They look and stare at me.
(18) They divide my garments among them. They cast lots for my clothing.
(19) But don’t be far off, Yahweh. You are my help: hurry to help me.
(20) Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog.
(21) Save me from the lion’s mouth! Yes, from the horns of the wild oxen, you have answered me.
(22) I will declare your name to my brothers. Among the assembly, I will praise you.
(23) You who fear Yahweh, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify him! Stand in awe of him, all you descendants of Israel!
(24) For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.
(25) Of you comes my praise in the great assembly. I will pay my vows before those who fear him.
(26) The humble shall eat and be satisfied. They shall praise Yahweh who seek after him. Let your hearts live forever.
(27) All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to Yahweh. All the relatives of the nations shall worship before you.
(28) For the kingdom is Yahweh’s. He is the ruler over the nations.
(29) All the rich ones of the earth shall eat and worship. All those who go down to the dust shall bow before him, even he who can’t keep his soul alive.
(30) Posterity shall serve him. Future generations shall be told about the Lord.
(31) They shall come and shall declare his righteousness to a people that shall be born, for he has done it.​

 

[Kermos]

You will find out different. Best to believe Jesus over errors.

Even the Israelite religious leaders have been telling the trinity clergys, the God they teach is false, for centuries. Because its not the God Israel served all throughout history from Moses on up until today. And its fact--they have the true God=YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God. Their problem is they reject the Messiah but they still know the true God.

Prov 8:25--brought forth with labor pains.

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that He was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• 
  According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a dangerously unreliable source.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

 

[keithr]

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that He was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:
etc.....

Still repeating the same old post over and over, eh? I count that's 15 times in this thread now. Please stop!

 

[David in NJ]

Still repeating the same old post over and over, eh? I count that's 15 times in this thread now. Please stop!

Good Morning keithr,

We should all say Hell No - Heaven YES

LORD Jesus says: these words i speak to you, they are Spirit and they are Life = Heaven Yes.

Saying God created Jesus is a horrific lie = Hell KNows

David, you realize that you are simply repeating the party line...its still not valid as you have been shown already.....the way you are reading those scriptures disagrees with the whole Bible. The Shema is not three.....the apostles were not worshippers of Jesus....They were taught by Jesus to worship only the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6....Paul wrote...
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."
"ONE GOD the FATHER....AND...ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST....just two separate entities.....and no HOLY SPIRIT is mentioned.

John 17:3....Jesus said in prayer....
"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."
Again no Holy Spirit......do we not need to "know" the Holy Spirit to gain everlasting life? Why is "he" missing?

In acts 4:27, what is Jesus called?
"For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed".
How can Jesus be "God" if he is called "God's holy servant"? Is God a servant of his other equal self?

There is so much scripture that fights with what you believe....but the Bible does not contradict itself......men contradict the Bible....and they make God into an incomprehensible enigma. How can humans get the simple Father/Son concept so muddled?

The same can be said of you statements therefore the Witness is in the Scripture by those who were guided by the Spirit of Truth = the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit cannot lie, therefore the True & Faithful Witness is the Word.

Witness #1 - Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created..."
John 1:1-2 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made."

You either accept and embrace the True Witness or you reject it. There is no other WAY.

 

[Pierac]

Nothing new here to learn since i have been called and chosen and washed in His Blood and Sanctified in the Truth of His Word.

ALL THREE of the ELOHIM have been established by His Will upon me with more to come.

So nice for you... but what about the rest of us... man kind??? Prideful idiot!!

Your a simple child whom reads buz words from your Church... and then claims superior knowledge.....

BEND OVER David AND GRAB YOUR ANKLES.. TIME FOR A SPIRITUAL SPANKING
Elohim... Please!!!

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

Try harder David.... At every post I make you Look more STUPID using the very truth you claim to have!!!!
You can let go of your ankles now... you make it so easy...silly child!!!
Does your Pastor know your posting? Your making your Church/Followers look pretty stupid! Do you have permission to do so?

Paul

 

[David in NJ]

So nice for you... but what about the rest of us... man kind??? Prideful idiot!!

Your a simple child whom reads buz words from your Church... and then claims superior knowledge.....

BEND OVER David AND GRAB YOUR ANKLES.. TIME FOR A SPIRITUAL SPANKING
Elohim... Please!!!

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

Try harder David.... At every post I make you Look more STUPID using the very truth you claim to have!!!!
You can let go of your ankles now... you make it so easy...silly child!!!
Does your Pastor know your posting? Your making your Church/Followers look pretty stupid! Do you have permission to do so?

Paul

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created...........
John 1:1-3 ...........the Word was God..................Through Him all things were made and nothing made that has been made.

There you have it - right from the beginning................and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Now this is what Yahweh says—
He who created you, O Jacob,
and He who created you, O Israel:

For I am the Yahweh your Eloheka/Divine Rulers - Plural,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Before Me no el/single god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am Yahweh
and there is no Savior but Me. - Isaiah ch43

Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” = Yeshua HaMoshiach / Jesus the Christ Acts 4:12

YES - Yahweh is Jesus who is the Savior.

How do we know? Because the Father says "that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD"(YHWH).

WHAT - You say you need more.........here is more

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said,
“Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever!
Revelation 1:17-18

“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Revelation 22:12-13

 

[keithr]

YES - Yahweh is Jesus who is the Savior.

How do we know? Because the Father says "that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD"(YHWH).

Why have you changed Lord to LORD and claimed that it is YHWH? It is simply Lord; it is not God's name. Why did you deliberatley leave out the rest of the sentence? Philippians 2:11 (WEB):

(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Jesus is not Yahweh (God). Here's proof. At Pentecost as part of Peter's sermon he said, Act 2:25-28 (WEB):

(25) For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.
(26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;
(27) because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.
(28) You made known to me the ways of life. You will make me full of gladness with your presence.’​

He was quoting from Psalm 16:8-11 (WEB):

(8) I have set Yahweh always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
(9) Therefore my heart is glad, and my tongue rejoices. My body shall also dwell in safety.
(10) For you will not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will you allow your holy one to see corruption.
(11) You will show me the path of life. In your presence is fullness of joy. In your right hand there are pleasures forever more.​

This is prophetically claiming that Jesus saw Yahweh at his right hand, that Yahweh would retrieve Jesus from hell and would not let Jesus' human body decay away, and that Jesus would be full of joy when he was in Yahweh's presence. This is very clear that Jesus is not Yahweh.

 

[Kermos]

Caesar's image was on the coin the Pharisees showed Jesus. The coin was not actually Caesar.

In normal language, an image of something is just that, the image. It's not the thing.

Your comparison is corrupt because you confused the earthly with the Heavenly. The coins containing Caesar's image are the earthly (Matthew 22:15-22). Jesus being the image of the invisible God is the Heavenly (Colossians 1:15). Jesus distinguishes between the earthly amd the Heavenly in the exchange (Matthew 22:15-22), yet you have confused the earthly and the Heavenly just like the Pharisees' disciples and Herodians.

Furthermore, the Greek word εἰκών (Strong's 1504 - eikon means:

(from 1503 /eíkō, "be like") – properly, "mirror-like representation," referring to what is very close in resemblance (like a "high-definition" projection, as defined by the context). Image (1504/eikṓn) then exactly reflects its source (what it directly corresponds to). For example, Christ is the very image (1504 /eikṓn, supreme expression) of the Godhead (see 2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15).
"1504 (eikṓn) assumes a prototype, of which it not merely resembles, but from which it is drawn" (R. Trench). 1504 (eikṓn) then is more than a "shadow"; rather it is a replication (F. F. Bruce, Hebrews, 226; see also Lightfoot at Col 3:10 and 2:21).​

Both Matthew 22:15-22 and Colossians 1:15 contain the word eikon (or it's derivative), so a much deeper meaning is present than your mere surface treatment.

What is it about being the firstborn that makes someone not having been born at all? Jesus was born. Jesus clearly was born.

Matt 1:18,

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Paul drives the message home that Jesus is the beginning of the Resurrection with "He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18) - see that Paul intensifies the true meaning of Colossians 1:15 by repeating the point in Colossians 1:18 - the point is that King Jesus, the Son of Man, is the Way (John 14:6) into the Resurrection for all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is specifically all the citizens of God's Kingdom. The "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 specifically refers to the Resurrection, not Jesus being created, but truly Jesus being the Way in the Resurrection!

Paul refers to Jesus as truly Man in Colossians 1:15.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Jesus, truly Man, was born (yet He exists priot to that birth by the virgin), and Jesus, truly God, is everlasting God. This is a Spiritual matter that baffles the human mind.

Your thoughts portray Jesus a liar when He says "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) because you wrote "Jesus was born. Jesus clearly was born. Matt 1:18" as if you purport that Jesus' existence starts at that point of that birth.

Yes all things came THROUGH Jesus. I get my water THROUGH pipes. The pipes are not the water.
John 1:1-2 is talking about the Word, the logos. Why do you keep changing that word to "Jesus?"

Scripture reveals that Jesus is the Word for it is written "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about Him and cried out, saying, 'This was He of whom I said, "He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me."'" (John 1:14-15).

There are no less than 6 verses that clearly say with absolutely no ambiguity that Jesus was a man:
Romans 5:15
Acts 2:22
Acts 17:31
1 Tim 2:5
John 4:29
John 8:40

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

There are absolutely no verses that state in such clear terms that Jesus was God. Trinitarians are forced to pick several scattered verses they then twist to say Jesus is God.

"Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!'" (John 20:28).

"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1)

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

You practice deception when you wrote "There are absolutely no verses that state in such clear terms that Jesus was God".

continued to post #813

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #812

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

That's pretty clear. The only God is the Father. You could try to find something that says, "To us there is but one God, the Son..." but you'd be looking in vain.

"I and the Father are One" (Jesus Christ, John 10:30).

1 Corinthians 8:6 says not that the One God is ONLY the Father; otherwise, the Apostle Paul would be contradicting the Apostle John, the Apostle Thomas, the Apostle Peter, and Lord Jesus.

Rev 3:14,

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

To insert the trinity here shows the incredible power of suggestion. If you just read what's written, How does it refer to Jesus as truly God? What it actually says is Jesus is, "the beginning of the creation of God." Maybe you misunderstand the meaning of "beginning" and "creation?"
Well you got that right, so I know you can read and understand (which I knew anyway ). But you don't seem to understand what an image of something is. You see your image in the mirror everyday. I assume you yourself are not hung on the wall over the bathroom sink!


Joshua means, "God Saved." Joshua was God?
Isaiah means," God Has Saved." Was Isaiah also God?
Ezekiel means, "God Will strengthen." Do we then add Ezekiel to the pantheon of gods?
My name is Rich. Why don't I have a 180' yacht and private jet?

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
  • "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void" (Genesis 1:1-2), SO, ACCORDING TO THIS WRITTEN SEQUENCE, FIRST, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WITH THE SEQUENCE CONCLUDING WITH THE CREATION OF MAN (GENESIS 1:26-31) AND THE FIRST MENTION OF A BIRTH IS CAIN (GENESIS 4:1); THEREFORE, THE "FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION" (COLOSSIANS 1:15) MUST OF NECESSITY BE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE RESURRECTION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8), AND PAUL ESTABLISHES THIS CONTEXT IN COLOSSIANS 1:1-14 BEING ABOUT THE INSTITUTION AND GROWTH OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD - THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS.
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the Redeemer among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia) in His glorious Resurrection.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

Why have you changed Lord to LORD and claimed that it is YHWH? It is simply Lord; it is not God's name. Why did you deliberatley leave out the rest of the sentence? Philippians 2:11 (WEB):

(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Jesus is not Yahweh (God). Here's proof. At Pentecost as part of Peter's sermon he said, Act 2:25-28 (WEB):

(25) For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.
(26) Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;
(27) because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.
(28) You made known to me the ways of life. You will make me full of gladness with your presence.’​

He was quoting from Psalm 16:8-11 (WEB):

(8) I have set Yahweh always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
(9) Therefore my heart is glad, and my tongue rejoices. My body shall also dwell in safety.
(10) For you will not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will you allow your holy one to see corruption.
(11) You will show me the path of life. In your presence is fullness of joy. In your right hand there are pleasures forever more.​

This is prophetically claiming that Jesus saw Yahweh at his right hand, that Yahweh would retrieve Jesus from hell and would not let Jesus' human body decay away, and that Jesus would be full of joy when he was in Yahweh's presence. This is very clear that Jesus is not Yahweh.

You just proved Jesus is Yahweh in your post - thank you

The LORD is my chosen portion and my cup;
You have made my lot secure. The lines of my boundary have fallen in pleasant places;
surely my inheritance is delightful. I will bless the LORD who counsels me;
even at night my conscience instructs me. I have set the LORD always before me.
Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell securely. For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence,
with eternal pleasures at Your right hand.
Psalm16:5

keithr, have you been paying attention???

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said,
“Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever!
Revelation 1:17-18

“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Revelation 22:12-13

 

[Kermos]

John 1:1 is a mistranslation of the Greek, as you have been shown, so then what does John 1:18 say....?
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB1995)

Hang on.....what does it mean “no one has ever seen God at any time”. If Jesus was God, that would be a lie. How many people saw Jesus?

But what about the next part? “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him“. This is “monogenes theos” (only begotten god) and correctly translated here in the NASB 1995 version. But look what happens in the 2020 revision....
“No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him. (NASB)
Where did the original text say “God the only Son” ? It didn’t....so the revision was changed from that uncomfortable rendering indicating something other than the trinity, to something more acceptable to trinitarians. This to me is sickening.....

I don’t think you guys have any idea of how misled you are. There is no “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”....the Catholic church made them up. The devil has you worshipping the wrong “god”, but only careful word studies will reveal this to those of you not so indoctrinated that they can’t see past this deliberate attempt to misrepresent the Creator.

The Apostle John wrote "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten, God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him" (John 1:18).

John describes Jesus as truly Man with "the only begotten", and then John describes Jesus as truly God with the next word "God", and then John describes Jesus' location with the next phrase "who is in the bosom of the Father", and then John declares that which Jesus has done with the clause "He has explained Him" because John made clear 3 times who the "He" is in the clause.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation of the Greek; therefore, the Apostle John refers to Jesus as God, and we have Apostolic teaching along with the Apostle John's belief expressly stated!

You deliberately attempt to deceive about who Jesus is.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

The Apostle John wrote "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten, God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him" (John 1:18).

John describes Jesus as truly Man with "the only begotten", and then John describes Jesus as truly God with the next word "God", and then John describes Jesus' location with the next phrase "who is in the bosom of the Father", and then John declares that which Jesus has done with the clause "He has explained Him" because John made clear 3 times who the "He" is in the clause.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation of the Greek; therefore, the Apostle John refers to Jesus as God, and we have Apostolic teaching along with the Apostle John's belief expressly stated!

You deliberately attempt to deceive about who Jesus is.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

And so i have asked, to those who do not believe the Truth, "Who walked with Adam & Eve in the Garden?"

Since the LORD said: "no one has seen the Father at any time, but He who is in the bosom of the Father."
We know that it was Elohim Son walking and speaking with Adam & Eve in the Garden.

"It is written, in the Volume of the Book of ME"

 

[Kermos]

i learned something new and Glorious Today from your Post = Thank You

TODAY, if you will hear His Voice, harden not your hearts............listen up Aunty Jane and others = hear His Voice and harden not your hearts

To God be the glory!

God bless you, David in NJ.

 

[David in NJ]

To God be the glory!

God bless you, David in NJ.

And Blessing from the LORD upon you and your family as well - Thank You for your Posts and Light that you share - refreshing.

 

[Kermos]

Actually --Let us = YHWH( Jehovah) and his master worker( Prov 8) Jesus) is correct. The being speaking at Prov 8 tells all he was created. This is the being God sent to earth. The one whom God created all other things through= his master worker. Named Jesus as a mortal.

You have taken Proverbs chapter 8 out of context.

In effect, you add to and/or subtract from scripture, and that is evil.

@Aunty Jane is partaker in the evil with you because she liked your post.

I plan on providing more detail about your Proverbs 8 deception in another post, shortly.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

NASB...."The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this".
NJKV..."These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God".
RSV..."The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation."

Strongs defines "beginning" as...
"ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule."

So if Jesus is the "beginning of God's creation", that is saying what you say is never stated.

Colossians too says....."He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation". (NASB)
Being the "firstborn" makes him the first created being.

You are adding to scripture and/or subtracting from scripture when you wrote "makes him the first created being". You honor not the Word of God nor linguistic context.

This compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
  • "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void" (Genesis 1:1-2), SO, ACCORDING TO THIS WRITTEN SEQUENCE, FIRST, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WITH THE SEQUENCE CONCLUDING WITH THE CREATION OF MAN (GENESIS 1:26-31) AND THE FIRST MENTION OF A BIRTH IS CAIN (GENESIS 4:1); THEREFORE, THE "FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION" (COLOSSIANS 1:15) MUST OF NECESSITY BE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE RESURRECTION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8), AND PAUL ESTABLISHES THIS CONTEXT IN COLOSSIANS 1:1-14 BEING ABOUT THE INSTITUTION AND GROWTH OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD - THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS.
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the Redeemer among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia) in His glorious Resurrection.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).