A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird

The "Equality of the Father and the Son" equates to the Father being God and the Son being God

Lord Jesus says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 4:18).

Immediately after Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30), the very next thing He says is "I showed you many good works from the Father" (John 10:31).

See that God is good alone, and see that good in Jesus as recorded in John 10:31.

Moreover, the Jews response to Jesus' "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) is reminiscent of "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

The Apostle John expressed his very own observations and belief that the Son of God is equal to God according to John's linguistic construction of the sentence (John 5:18); moreover, no one is equal to God except for God and there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4); therefore, Jesus is God.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

he didnt say Jesus was the Most High, thats pretty important.

Thomas called Jesus "my God" (John 20:28).

Jesus talked about the Commandments in front of Thomas.

Thomas, being a Jew, knew the Commandments.

One commandment is "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

The very moment Thomas said "my God" (John 20:28) to Yeshua HaMashiyach, Thomas made clear that Jesus is El Elyon (God Most High), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

In your heart's treasure, you wickedly subtract the words of Thomas from scripture, even the meaning and context.

no Jew ever believed or taught this.

Well, you LIE right there because there is a group known as Jews for Jesus.

doesnt work, this only works if other men are the Most High. are you the Most High?

Your statement and questioned are folly because you have no scriptural support for your wicked thoughts that you published there.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

all sects at the time of Jesus believed the soul was immortal.

You publish no complete list of every sect of the time of Jesus that supports your assertion; therefore, you are merely stating your delusional thoughts.

this is what the passage actually says:

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Trins always adding and taking from scripture to make their doctrine work. bible says not to do that.
also important note, non trins do not have to edit the scripture.

"BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him, assuredly, truly, 'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'” (Revelation 1:7-8).

The Apostle John truly attributes the quotation in Revelation 1:8 to Jesus because John is continuing the sentence of Revelation 1:7.

Fools who claim Jesus is not God flat out subtract from the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) and add to the Word of God.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

.............................................
Please give proper references for all your quotes.

John 20:28 is a statement by Thomas who had refused to believe that Jesus had been resurrected. His statement is a phrase without subject or verb and if subject and verb are to be supplied by the translator, it could read “you are My Lord and My God.” It is more likely, however, that it would be translated more like “My Lord and my God be praised.” This would mean that the phrase was meant as a doxology to the Father. Doxologies and other commonly used phrases frequently have words missing in the Greek text.

Many trinitarians say, instead, that this phrase by Thomas was an ADDRESS to Jesus. If true, this would mean that Thomas was naming Jesus by these words. However, it is rare that a person is addressed and not spoken to further. For example, “Then they said to him, ‘Lord, always give us this bread.’” (John 6:34).

However, there is actual proof that John did not intend this as an ADDRESS to Jesus.

You see, whenever John, and the other NT writers, used “Lord” as a noun of address, they used the form of the word known as a vocative. This means that if John understood Thomas’ word as an address to Jesus, they would write the word kurie. Whereas when they intended it as a subject (“The Lord then answered him..." - Luke 13:15”) they used the nominative form of the word (Kurios). Kurios is the form used at John 20:28.

So, the probability is that this incomplete phrase is a doxology to the Father.

Furthermore, if John had, somehow, understood Thomas’ statement as some trinitarians insist, he certainly would have provided some follow-up clarification and emphasis in his own comments.

Surely John would have shown Thomas prostrating himself before “God” and worshiping him (but he doesn’t!). So how does John summarize this incident?

- “But these were written that you may believe [Believe what? That Jesus is God? Here, then, is where it should have been written if John really believed such a thing:] that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” - John 20:31, RSV. (Be sure to compare 1 John 5:5.)

Or, as the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985, states in a footnote for this scripture:

“This whole Gospel is written to show the truth of Jesus’ Messiahship and to present him as the Son of God, so that the readers may believe in him.”

Obviously, neither Jesus’ response, nor Thomas’ responses (before and after his statement at John 20:28), nor John’s summation of the event at 20:31 recognizes Thomas’ statement to mean that Jesus is the only true God!

See my study of this scripture here:

Examining the Trinity: MYGOD

You insert your thoughts into the words of the Apostle Thomas. The words of Thomas were recorded by the Apostle John (John 20:28).

In effect, your very first paragraph adds to scripture because you changed Thomas' words.

You inserted your words directly into the phrase enunciated by Thomas, and in so doing, in effect, you subtract that which the Apostle John wrote about the dialog between Jesus and Thomas in John 20:26-29.

In effect, you call the Apostle Thomas a liar.

In effect, you call the Apostle John a liar.

The Apostle Thomas attributes to Jesus being Lord and applied to Jesus being God in the following passage because the Apostle John wrote that the Apostle Thomas said "to Him", with the Him being Jesus, then immediately Jesus replied to Thomas' words with a sentence about Thomas's expressed belief:

Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed?" (John 20:28-29).

The lengths that lost fools go to in order to deceive by claiming that Jesus is not God.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus never actually wrote a single word of scripture.....Its about him, but God allowed his human secretaries to do the writing...all of them were Jewish.


It saddens me that you cannot see the 'blindness' in yourself. You have been shown countless times that your understanding of scripture is sadly lacking. You tell the scriptures what to say according to your own indoctrination, rather than allowing them to instruct you.

"Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father"....it is the Father who is the LORD. (Philippians 2:11) Jesus is "Lord".
Jesus is also his Father's "servant". (Acts 4:27)


The angels know who Jesus is and not one of them 'worship' him because they know he is not "The LORD". Find me one passage of scripture where Jesus is ever called "LORD" (in all capitals). That is only for YHWH.
"Lord" is a title of respect, not a proper name.....its the equivalent of calling someone "Sir".
Seriously...have you ever done any real original word studies?


Who are the great multitude? Do you have any idea? Who are the 144,000 that John sees first?


What is this saying?
The son is the heir....if he was God these things would already be his. He is the "express image" of his Father, reflecting his qualities and personality...where does it say he is the image of himself? If he is sitting at God's right hand, is he waiting for something? David prophesied that he was. (Psalm 110:1-2)


Is Jesus just an angel? NO, he is the Archangel Michael, God's "firstborn" son.....how is he God's "firstborn" if he is God?
This is nonsense......no scripture supports what you believe unless you infer something that is not stated.

Every scripture you quote has the same vague inference that you rely on for your beliefs.....
None of what you quote means what you want it to say.

"Worship" in English does not mean the same in Greek.
It is translated "worship" when it pertains to God....and rendered "obeisance" when it is given to those who have authority, but are not deities. Jesus is not a deity, and never once claimed to be. The "Son of God" was NEVER "God the Son".....

The Bible was not written in English....ya know.

Aunty Jane - your replies are based on human intellectual dependence and cannot avail oneself to the Upward and High Calling in Messiah YESHUA

Human intellectual blindness is a malignant condition of the heart, which always leads to death.

"For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Your heart comes out your mouth with a false confession that exalts itself above Messiah and worship due His Name = YESHUA HaMoshiach.

Revelation details to us how angels along with the 24 Elders and every tribe tongue and nation worships the LAMB who was slain and who Alone is Worthy, fall down and prostrate themselves in worship before the LAMB and the Father.
There is no separation of worship from the LAMB and the Father = except in a heart of unbelief and denial.

Ironically, jws - lds - and other foreign entities who are against the saving Knowledge of the Father thru YESHUA HaMoshiach always seek to distort the SON from the FATHER as well as the Author who is the Holy Spirit.
This activity of the unbelieving heart, like the Jews who cried 'blasphemer', will only bring the Wrath of the Lamb and the Father for the THREE are ECHAD as was written in Genesis, Exodus, the Prophets, the Gospel, the Apostles, Acts and Revelation.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, (JESUS the CHRIST) and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and
I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me.
And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,
“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen"

JESUS the CHRIST = the Alpha and the Omega = the First and the Last = HE who was dead and is Alive forevemore.

 

[jaybird]

Thomas called Jesus "my God" (John 20:28).

Jesus talked about the Commandments in front of Thomas.

Thomas, being a Jew, knew the Commandments.

One commandment is "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

The very moment Thomas said "my God" (John 20:28) to Yeshua HaMashiyach, Thomas made clear that Jesus is El Elyon (God Most High), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

are you being serious with this? a small child knows people say "my Lord" all the time and it goes back beyond Jesus. and he never names a specific person the Most High, he never proclaims Jesus to be the Most High, he just says "my Most High". this is why very few trins worth their salt ever go to this passage.

Well, you LIE right there because there is a group known as Jews for Jesus.

they didnt exist at the time of Jesus. they only been around since the 70s. the Jews i am talking about would be guys like Noah, Elijah, Samuel. Moses. they never taught a trinity, never believed a trinity. when the trinity was invented by Christians 300 plus years after Jesus, Jews stop converting and start writing non trinity theology.
you dont sound like you know anything about Judaism, you really have no idea how anti Jewish the trinity is. they are DIE HARD anti trinity.

Your statement and questioned are folly because you have no scriptural support for your wicked thoughts that you published there.

you need scripture support to define what a human being is?

You publish no complete list of every sect of the time of Jesus that supports your assertion; therefore, you are merely stating your delusional thoughts.

its common sense, any mainstream study bible teaches this

pitiful, running away from every challenge. how do you expect anyone to ever take you serious.

 

[David in NJ]

are you being serious with this? a small child knows people say "my Lord" all the time and it goes back beyond Jesus. and he never names a specific person the Most High, he never proclaims Jesus to be the Most High, he just says "my Most High". this is why very few trins worth their salt ever go to this passage.


they didnt exist at the time of Jesus. they only been around since the 70s. the Jews i am talking about would be guys like Noah, Elijah, Samuel. Moses. they never taught a trinity, never believed a trinity. when the trinity was invented by Christians 300 plus years after Jesus, Jews stop converting and start writing non trinity theology.
you dont sound like you know anything about Judaism, you really have no idea how anti Jewish the trinity is. they are DIE HARD anti trinity.


you need scripture support to define what a human being is?


its common sense, any mainstream study bible teaches this

pitiful, running away from every challenge. how do you expect anyone to ever take you serious.

See Post #844

 

[jaybird]

See Post #844

???

 

[Kermos]

While you may think that being one with someone else makes the two persons actually one, scripture indicates otherwise.

1 Corinthians 8:6 says not that the One God is ONLY the Father; otherwise, the Apostle Paul would be contradicting the Apostle John, the Apostle Thomas, the Apostle Peter, and Lord

John 17:21-22,

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Of course if you are right, then we must conclude we are also God. Saying that 2 or more people "are one" is a very familiar figure of speech and we all know it means they are one in purpose or goals. We would never think that a crowd of people who "acted as one" was actually many people with one essence or whatever.

To prove the trinity it is essential that we depart from the normal meaning of many everyday words, a son and a father for starters. But it gets more and more convoluted as we change the meaning of many other words.

If we just take things as they are written there is no problem. 1 Cor 8:6 says in the most clearest terms that the only God is the Father. It requires a total mental disconnect to think it actually means "God the Son" is also God. Of course, saying that is wrong right out of the gate, since the words "God the Son" aren't even in the scriptures!


That doesn't say Jesus was created? Then what does, "the beginning of the creation of God" actually mean? "Jesus existed forever, but he also had a beginning? How about just saying Jesus had a beginning, therefore he did not exist forever, other than in God's mind, the plan, the logos of John 1:1? Of course Ephesians says God chose us from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4).

Besides, nobody wants to investigate for themselves what the word "logos" actually means. It's not an easy word for the modern Western person to understand. It takes some digging into the ancient way of Greek thought. It's much easier to just go along with tradition, so let's just change John 1:1 to, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God." That way there is clear "proof" of the trinity and we don't have to understand what "logos" actually means.



How do the words, "the firstborn of all creation" not say Jesus was born?


Speaking of error, one grave error many make is in not understanding to or about whom something was written (Jew, Gentile, or Christian) as well as when it was written. Jesus said he came for, "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" in Matt 15:24. He was not there for Gentiles, and Christians didn't even exist at that time. Since Jesus was still alive, it was not possible to be a Christian. Christianity began on the day of Pentecost. Paul, on the other hand, wrote TO Christians (saints, the church) AFTER Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension.

Paul did talk about the new birth, when he said we are born again with incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23), but it may not necessarily be what Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus.

Do you think the new birth was actually available when Jesus talked to Nicodemus? If so, what was the point in Jesus getting crucified?

What's wrong with just believing Genesis 1:1? It says God created the heavens and the earth. Why all the word/idea twisting to say Jesus did it?

Maybe check out what doing something "through" something else actually means. Normally when one person goes through another person to get something done, it is understood there are two unique individuals involved. Where does it say God changed the meaning of "through?"



Rev 3:14,

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

I'm thinking that says that God did the creation, startingt with Jesus. Not sure how it can be construed into saying Jesus created. See how God used the word "beginning" (arche) in other parts of scripture.

That is exactly what must be thought to prove the trinity. We have to invent meanings of words to say what's normally not possible to say. A son and his father being one person for starters. We can't just understand a father and a son in the way we normally do.

Honestly, all I can say is that the fact that trinitarians have to go through so many mental gymnastics is in stark contrast to the many clear verses that require no "interpretation" whatsoever, that plainly say Jesus was a man. I've show at least 6 that say just that, "...the man Jesus Christ..." or some such equally clear declaration on Jesus' nature. There is no clear verse that state Jesus is God. That conclusion is possible only by bringing in verses from all over the place, none of which in and of themselves give any indication that Jesus is God.

A perfect example is insisting that the "Word" in John 1:1 is should be the word, "Jesus," thus "proving" Jesus is God, all the while simply ignoring John's clearly stated purpose in writing his Gospel.

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As I mentioned above, the only way this could be construed as saying Jesus is God is by abandoning the meaning of the words "son" and "God." Somehow a son and a father are no longer two separate people?

You keep bringing the name Emmanuel, while ignoring the many OT characters that had names with "god" in them. A name is a name. It doesn't define the nature of the one named. Jesus' nature is actually that of a son.

Lord Jesus says "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:21).

Jesus did not say "they also may be one with Us" - which is what you convey.

Lord Jesus continues "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one" (John 17:22).

Jesus distinguishes between two ones - to clarify - (1) His first mention of "one" in the verse being about the children of God with "they may be one", but (2) His second mention of "one" in the verse being God.

I am not God. You are not God. No mere man is God.

Jesus includes Himself as being God because He says "We are one".

We just covered fundamental grammar, and more importantly we covered Spiritual Truth (John 14:6).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

Since you have difficulty with fundamental English and language in general as well as you repeating exposed deception between your post's opening and closing that I'm jumping from exposing your opening deception to your closing deception.

You, Rich R, deny the Word of God by writing things like "You keep bringing the name Emmanuel, while ignoring the many OT characters that had names with 'god' in them" because all it does is demonstrates your denial of the Word of God.

Since Lord Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30), then Jesus lives in the special place of being Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

are you being serious with this? a small child knows people say "my Lord" all the time and it goes back beyond Jesus. and he never names a specific person the Most High, he never proclaims Jesus to be the Most High, he just says "my Most High". this is why very few trins worth their salt ever go to this passage.


they didnt exist at the time of Jesus. they only been around since the 70s. the Jews i am talking about would be guys like Noah, Elijah, Samuel. Moses. they never taught a trinity, never believed a trinity. when the trinity was invented by Christians 300 plus years after Jesus, Jews stop converting and start writing non trinity theology.
you dont sound like you know anything about Judaism, you really have no idea how anti Jewish the trinity is. they are DIE HARD anti trinity.


you need scripture support to define what a human being is?


its common sense, any mainstream study bible teaches this

pitiful, running away from every challenge. how do you expect anyone to ever take you serious.

You deny Apostolic teaching about Jesus because the Apostle Thomas says "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Thomas, being a Jew, knew the Commandment[FONT=verdana, Arial, sans-serif] "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so when Thomas called Jesus God then Thomas meant that Jesus is God.[/FONT]

The very moment Thomas said "my God" (John 20:28) to Yeshua HaMashiyach, Thomas made clear that Jesus is El Elyon (God Most High), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[jaybird]

You deny Apostolic teaching about Jesus because the Apostle Thomas says "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Thomas, being a Jew, knew the Commandment[FONT=verdana, Arial, sans-serif] "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so when Thomas called Jesus God then Thomas meant that Jesus is God.[/FONT]

The very moment Thomas said "my God" (John 20:28) to Yeshua HaMashiyach, Thomas made clear that Jesus is El Elyon (God Most High), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

do you make this up as you go? my uncle says "my Lord" everytime he hits his thumb with a hammer, he is not proclaiming anyone to be the Most High.
and Thomas does not even say Most High, he says "god" all heavenly beings are by definition "gods". a son of the Most High, like Jesus says He is, is a god.
these ideas are so absurd. i cant believe you actually buy into this. this is why most trins, the ones that do not want to look foolish, never use this passage.

 

[David in NJ]

Lord Jesus says "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:21).

Jesus did not say "they also may be one with Us" - which is what you convey.

Lord Jesus continues "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one" (John 17:22).

Jesus distinguishes between two ones - to clarify - (1) His first mention of "one" in the verse being about the children of God with "they may be one", but (2) His second mention of "one" in the verse being God.

I am not God. You are not God. No mere man is God.

Jesus includes Himself as being God because He says "We are one".

We just covered fundamental grammar, and more importantly we covered Spiritual Truth (John 14:6).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

Since you have difficulty with fundamental English and language in general as well as you repeating exposed deception between your post's opening and closing that I'm jumping from exposing your opening deception to your closing deception.

You, Rich R, deny the Word of God by writing things like "You keep bringing the name Emmanuel, while ignoring the many OT characters that had names with 'god' in them" because all it does is demonstrates your denial of the Word of God.

Since Lord Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30), then Jesus lives in the special place of being Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Finally, a true Brother in YHWH who understands and can communicate with accuracy that distinguishes the multiplicity of Elohim Father, Son an Holy Spirit, the Word from the beginning, who became flesh and emptied Himself, yet never apart from the Father and Holy Spirit- HalleluYah.

Thank You Brother - may i use your post and print it out for use in the future?

 

[Rich R]

You, Rich R, deny the Word of God by writing things like "You keep bringing the name Emmanuel, while ignoring the many OT characters that had names with 'god' in them" because all it does is demonstrates your denial of the Word of God.

So there are no characters in the Bible that have one of God's title in it, namely el, as in Emmanuel?

Maybe I just misunderstood, because I think the following you already know:
Let's see, there's Samuel, Ezekiel, Daniel, Elijah, Elam, Elihu, Eliezar... I could go on for a long time listing all the characters that had el as part of their name, but I have be somewhere next week.

Apparently having a title of God (El) in a name doesn't make them all YHWH. As an added bonus, that is in perfect accord with 1 Cor 8:6 where we learn the only God is the Father. It all fits like a hand in a glove!

 

[Rich R]

Finally, a true Brother in YHWH who understands and can communicate with accuracy that distinguishes the multiplicity of Elohim Father, Son an Holy Spirit, the Word from the beginning, who became flesh and emptied Himself, yet never apart from the Father and Holy Spirit- HalleluYah.

Thank You Brother - may i use your post and print it out for use in the future?

Yeah, but he still can't explain a son being his own Father.

 

[jaybird]

Lord Jesus says "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:21).

Jesus did not say "they also may be one with Us" - which is what you convey.

Lord Jesus continues "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one" (John 17:22).

this doesnt work, Jesus says that they may be one "JUST AS" we are one

that "just as" is important. i made it real big because you guys love to ignore these things. it means what ever "one" they are talking about, and we can debate that till the cows come home, it matters nothing because the "one" in question is the exact same as each other. so if Jesus made the statement proclaiming He was the Most High, then we have to apply that to all believers are each other, which we know is wrong.

 

[David in NJ]

Yeah, but he still can't explain a son being his own Father.

Genesis gives us the Picture of Elohim Father Elohim Son and Elohim Holy Spirit which is the Gospel preached unto Abraham by God.

Well, keep reading the Gospel of John my friend. Set your whole heart, mind and soul unto loving the LORD Jesus Christ for no one approaches the Father apart from coming thru the Door = LORD Jesus Christ.

Pray to be Born-Again by the Spirit and then Baptized in the Holy Spirit = Read and pray thru Gospel of John and Acts.

If you are reading from a corrupted Bible where the 'Word was a god', you must ditch it and buy yourself a NKJV or NASB or BSB

 

[tigger 2]

Genesis gives us the Picture of Elohim Father Elohim Son and Elohim Holy Spirit which is the Gospel preached unto Abraham by God.

Well, keep reading the Gospel of John my friend. Set your whole heart, mind and soul unto loving the LORD Jesus Christ for no one approaches the Father apart from coming thru the Door = LORD Jesus Christ.

Pray to be Born-Again by the Spirit and then Baptized in the Holy Spirit = Read and pray thru Gospel of John and Acts.

If you are reading from a corrupted Bible where the 'Word was a god', you must ditch it and buy yourself a NKJV or NASB or BSB

.............................................
The "corrupted Bibles" are all those which have "the Word was God" and have removed the name of God (YHWH in Hebrew) in their translations in most or all 6000+ places it occurs in the OT Hebrew manuscripts.

The excuses given by trinitarians for translating "God" at John 1:1c have been made up in the past century and found to be false by any who actually examined them. - Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity And/or Examining the Trinity

 

[Rich R]

Well, keep reading the Gospel of John my friend. Set your whole heart, mind and soul unto loving the LORD Jesus Christ for no one approaches the Father apart from coming thru the Door = LORD Jesus Christ.

I have looked at John many times and I can't get past the stated reason for him having written his Gospel.

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
​

It's the very Christ that God told Eve he'd send through her seed (Gen 3:15). Look at Genesis 1 and you'll see that seed always produces an offspring of the same nature as the parent. Adam & Eve weren't God. Nor were they a god-human hybrid. They were human through and through. Yet another significant clue to Jesus' nature that Trinitarians are forced to ignore along with the half dozen verses that plainly call Jesus a man as opposed to absolutely 0 verses that as clearly say he is God. Then there's the simple fact that Jesus prayed to God all the time. If he were God that'd be a non-sequitur. And why would Jesus say that God always listened to him. If he were God that would be another non-sequitur. I mean, wow, God listens to Himself! What to you know! Surprise, surprise. Half the Bible becomes like that if we mix up the two leading characters. It'd be like mixing up the whale Moby Dick with Captain Ahab. It'd be a weird story to say the least. That's what happens when we make Jesus God. The whole book becomes a fairy tale with no basis in reality.

If you are reading from a corrupted Bible where the 'Word was a god', you must ditch it and buy yourself a NKJV or NASB or BSB

Well, I don't read it that way. But there is plenty of grammatical evidence for reading it as, "...The word was godly." Reading it that way fits perfectly with the reason John wrote the Bible, i.e., not the Jesus is God, but that he is the son of God the Messiah. The logos is a plan God had in mind. It, like "wisdom" in the OT is not a person at all. It was personified as a figure of speech, but a "word" does not actually become a god or a man. Now we could say that the plan reached it's culmination when Jesus was born and followed his instructions, the logos, the plan of God to perfection.

 

[Rich R]

.............................................
The "corrupted Bibles" are all those which have "the Word was God" and have removed the name of God (YHWH in Hebrew) in their translations in most or all 6000+ places it occurs in the OT Hebrew manuscripts.

The excuses given by trinitarians for translating "God" at John 1:1c have been made up in the past century and found to be false by any who actually examined them. - Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity And/or Examining the Trinity

So you're using the scriptures and the normal usage of simple words to prove a point while ignoring tradition? What a concept! And, wow, it works! We can actually allow Jesus to be the son of God instead of God Himself if we do that.

Yeah, but no point in using our God given brains and logic. Just take the nonsensical idea by faith. Heck, that we we can even prove God is a Martian. All you have to do is take it by faith. No need for it to make sense......I trust you know I'm being facetious now.

 

[Kermos]

Finally, a true Brother in YHWH who understands and can communicate with accuracy that distinguishes the multiplicity of Elohim Father, Son an Holy Spirit, the Word from the beginning, who became flesh and emptied Himself, yet never apart from the Father and Holy Spirit- HalleluYah.

Thank You Brother - may i use your post and print it out for use in the future?

Of course you can use the post. Christ is the Wisdom of God, so in reality, the post is His.

May God bless your use of the post, should you use it!

God bless you, David in NJ!

 

[Kermos]

do you make this up as you go? my uncle says "my Lord" everytime he hits his thumb with a hammer, he is not proclaiming anyone to be the Most High.
and Thomas does not even say Most High, he says "god" all heavenly beings are by definition "gods". a son of the Most High, like Jesus says He is, is a god.
these ideas are so absurd. i cant believe you actually buy into this. this is why most trins, the ones that do not want to look foolish, never use this passage.

You deny Apostolic teaching about Jesus because the Apostle Thomas says "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Thomas, being a Jew, knew the Commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so when Thomas called Jesus "my God" then Thomas meant that Jesus is YHWH God because Thomas has no gods before YHWH God, that is, Jesus is YHWH God according to the words of the Apostle Thomas.

The very moment Thomas said "my God" (John 20:28) to Yeshua HaMashiyach, Thomas made clear that Jesus is El Elyon (God Most High), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).