A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians
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Keiw
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David in NJ
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Yes.And the Holy Spirit was there, too. Yes. God.
Grace and peace to you.
Absolutely True and Grace and Peace to you as well.
So let us did a little deeper - we agree and affirm that the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are Echad = ONE united/unified Eternal BEING
For the Father Son and Holy Spirit are the = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3
AGREE = all 3 are ONE
Question: which of the 3 manifested Themself to Adam and Eve in the Garden?
For Adam & Eve did see and speak with Someone.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Actually --Let us = YHWH( Jehovah) and his master worker( Prov 8) Jesus) is correct. The being speaking at Prov 8 tells all he was created. This is the being God sent to earth. The one whom God created all other things through= his master worker. Named Jesus as a mortal.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Gods master worker= the one whom God created all other things through. The speaker at Prov 8--tells all he was created. Tells all they need listen to him. This is the being God sent and was named Jesus as a mortal= The firstborn of all creation Coll 1:15)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That is Christendom's belief...not mine, for all the reasons I have shown you from the scriptures. You have ignored all of them.
Have you ever contemplated what will happen if you are wrong about this doctrine? Putting not one, but two other "gods" in the Father's place is a clear breach of the first Commandment....(Exodus 20:3)
Need I remind you again that Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture? There is no trinity in the Hebrew writings. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever mentioned God existing as a threesome. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
I believe that the scriptures contradict you.
Do you know how many times Jesus said "I am" without once saying that he was God?
What about John 8:58? What question was Jesus' answering?
According to Strongs Concordance the expression used in this verse can mean several things...
"εἰμί eimí, i-mee'; the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):—am, have been, × it is I, was."....so to restrict it to one convenient meaning as if there are no others, is poor study form IMO.
What do the surrounding facts show?
John 8:56-58....
"Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (NASB)
Christendom's interpretation of this verse is not only a poor understanding of the context, but an appalling lack of grammar.
Jesus was answering a question about his age.....and according to Strongs' definition "I have been" or "I was" is just as appropriate.
The footnote on the NASB says...."
"John 8:58 Lit "came into being".
So Jesus was not saying..."I AM GOD"...he was saying that he "came into being" "before Abraham was born".....this answers the question that Jesus was asked......but apparently in their haste to see a trinity, the 'blind' cannot 'see' what is right in front of them.
You crack me up....
Revelation 3:14 in some well known translations....
KJ21..."These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".
ASV..."These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".
ESV..."The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."
KJV..."These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".
Mounce Interlinear..."The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, · the Beginning of God’s creation".
NASB...."The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this".
NJKV..."These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God".
RSV..."The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation."
Strongs defines "beginning" as...
"ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule."
So if Jesus is the "beginning of God's creation", that is saying what you say is never stated.
Colossians too says....."He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation". (NASB)
Being the "firstborn" makes him the first created being.
Yep, and nowhere does this say anything close to what you are implying...because implying is all you can do.
What you choose to believe is up to you......what I believe is up to me. Jesus will let us all know who got it right...and who didn't.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
If this is what you actually believe - you completely missed FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT and, just like the Jews who confronted Jesus,
you have greatly erred in your scriptural understanding.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Keep praying to the LORD for understanding His TRUTH for without it, no one can find the Way.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
That is Christendom's belief...not mine, for all the reasons I have shown you from the scriptures. You have ignored all of them.
Have you ever contemplated what will happen if you are wrong about this doctrine? Putting not one, but two other "gods" in the Father's place is a clear breach of the first Commandment....(Exodus 20:3)
Need I remind you again that Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture? There is no trinity in the Hebrew writings. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever mentioned God existing as a threesome. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
I believe that the scriptures contradict you.
Do you know how many times Jesus said "I am" without once saying that he was God?
What about John 8:58? What question was Jesus' answering?
According to Strongs Concordance the expression used in this verse can mean several things...
"εἰμί eimí, i-mee'; the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):—am, have been, × it is I, was."....so to restrict it to one convenient meaning as if there are no others, is poor study form IMO.
What do the surrounding facts show?
John 8:56-58....
"Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (NASB)
Christendom's interpretation of this verse is not only a poor understanding of the context, but an appalling lack of grammar.
Jesus was answering a question about his age.....and according to Strongs' definition "I have been" or "I was" is just as appropriate.
The footnote on the NASB says...."
"John 8:58 Lit "came into being".
So Jesus was not saying..."I AM GOD"...he was saying that he "came into being" "before Abraham was born".....this answers the question that Jesus was asked......but apparently in their haste to see a trinity, the 'blind' cannot 'see' what is right in front of them.
You crack me up....
Revelation 3:14 in some well known translations....
KJ21..."These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".
ASV..."These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".
ESV..."The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."
KJV..."These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".
Mounce Interlinear..."The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, · the Beginning of God’s creation".
NASB...."The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this".
NJKV..."These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God".
RSV..."The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation."
Strongs defines "beginning" as...
"ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule."
So if Jesus is the "beginning of God's creation", that is saying what you say is never stated.
Colossians too says....."He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation". (NASB)
Being the "firstborn" makes him the first created being.
Yep, and nowhere does this say anything close to what you are implying...because implying is all you can do.
What you choose to believe is up to you......what I believe is up to me. Jesus will let us all know who got it right...and who didn't.
If you reject Elohim FATHER Elohim SON Elohim HOLY SPIRIT - then you reject the Gospel of God.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
And if you put other "gods" in the Father's place, you are guilty of breaking the First Commandment....the most important one.
I think you are taking scripture way out of context if you think saying that Yahweh is "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" and that is somehow turning it into "Elohim FATHER Elohim SON Elohim HOLY SPIRIT". No such God exists in scripture.
"God the Father" is often spoken about....but I know of not a single mention of "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" in any passage of scripture....OT nor NT.
Please provide such and we can examine it closely....
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The 1st Commandment - you need to do some soul searching and praying Aunty Jane
Jesus is either Elohim SON or you are still in your sins.
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness = 3
Exodus 3:14-15
Elohim said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Elohim also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Yahweh Elohe(Rulers/Gods) of your fathers—Elohe of Abraham, Elohe of Isaac, Elohe God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.
Abraham/FATHER Issac/SON Jacob/HOLY SPIRIT = 3 are Echad Elohim
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What about you do what you are telling everyone else to do?
Jesus is the son of God...plain and simple.....how is the son God? Where does Jesus ever say that he is "Elohim SON".....give us the chapter and verse....?
You cannot even read a plain statement in scripture without twisting it to say what you want it to.
God has highly exalted his equal self? How can he do that?
He has given himself a name that is above every name when he already had a name that was higher than any other...? (Psalm 83:18)
And every knee is to bow to Jesus.....that is respect, (obeisance) not worship.
And every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord (not God) to whose glory? Not the son's glory, but the Father's......you guys really cant see past the end of your indoctrinated noses, can you. Its all right there in front of you but you can't see it.
Where does it ever say three? This is the Father and son who teamed up in creation. We have shown you countless times that the son was used by his Father as the agency "through" whom creation came.....the son is not the Creator, he is the fabricator of creation, working at his Father's side.
So how is that proof of the trinity? How lame is that?
How many times do we have to go through this? You do not have a scriptural leg to stand on....your whole belief is based in inference, not backed up by the facts. You keep repeating the same things over and over like no one has shown you how wrong you are. Have it your way.....I'm done with this now.....you can believe whatever you wish. Jesus will settle this once and for all.....
What did Jesus say was the greatest commandment? Mark 12:28-31 (WEB):
(28) One of the scribes came, and heard them questioning together. Knowing that he had answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the greatest of all?”
(29) Jesus answered, “The greatest is, ‘Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one:
(30) you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
(31) The second is like this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
(32) The scribe said to him, “Truly, teacher, you have said well that he is one, and there is none other but he,
(33) and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
(34) When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from God’s Kingdom.” No one dared ask him any question after that.
(29) Jesus answered, “The greatest is, ‘Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one:
(30) you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
(31) The second is like this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
(32) The scribe said to him, “Truly, teacher, you have said well that he is one, and there is none other but he,
(33) and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
(34) When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from God’s Kingdom.” No one dared ask him any question after that.
John 20:31 (WEB):
(31) but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Awesome keithr, and just as the LORD says: "You are not far from God's Kingdom".
So why were they close to the Kingdom of God but still not able to enter in?
What did they not understand/SEE from the LORD's answer to them?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
What about you do what you are telling everyone else to do?
Jesus is the son of God...plain and simple.....how is the son God? Where does Jesus ever say that he is "Elohim SON".....give us the chapter and verse....?
You cannot even read a plain statement in scripture without twisting it to say what you want it to.
God has highly exalted his equal self? How can he do that?
He has given himself a name that is above every name when he already had a name that was higher than any other...? (Psalm 83:18)
And every knee is to bow to Jesus.....that is respect, (obeisance) not worship.
And every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord (not God) to whose glory? Not the son's glory, but the Father's......you guys really cant see past the end of your indoctrinated noses, can you. Its all right there in front of you but you can't see it.
Where does it ever say three? This is the Father and son who teamed up in creation. We have shown you countless times that the son was used by his Father as the agency "through" whom creation came.....the son is not the Creator, he is the fabricator of creation, working at his Father's side.
So how is that proof of the trinity? How lame is that?
How many times do we have to go through this? You do not have a scriptural leg to stand on....your whole belief is based in inference, not backed up by the facts. You keep repeating the same things over and over like no one has shown you how wrong you are. Have it your way.....I'm done with this now.....you can believe whatever you wish. Jesus will settle this once and for all.....
Jesus says to you, and me, "I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE" = 3
You can start Today, if you Hear His Voice......harden not your heart.......Jesus, the Way the Truth the LIFE............PEACE to my Aunty Jane
Adam and Eve heard the Voice of God walking and hid themselves
Well, the text says that when Adam and Even ate the fruit, they saw that they were naked, and thus sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths (Genesis 3:7). And then we read in Genesis 3:8 that they heard the sound of God walking in the garden and thus hid themselves from His presence. There's nothing in the text about Adam and Eve actually seeing God, or any one Member (or all three together) of the triune Jehovah. So I would rule out the seeing. And to your question, which One was there? Well, I would say again: yes.
Grace and peace to you, David!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well, the text says that when Adam and Even ate the fruit, they saw that they were naked, and thus sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths (Genesis 3:7). And then we read in Genesis 3:8 that they heard the sound of God walking in the garden and thus hid themselves from His presence. There's nothing in the text about Adam and Eve actually seeing God, or any one Member (or all three together) of the triune Jehovah. So I would rule out the seeing. And to your question, which One was there? Well, I would say again: yes.
Grace and peace to you, David!
The LORD gave the answer in His Gospel - there you will find who manifested to Adam & Eve whereby they hid themselves.
Clue: You cannot hide from the wind.
Well, surely you will agree, I think, that no one can hide from God. To Him we are all exposed, even though we may hide ~ either physically or spiritually speaking, but even more so spiritually, which is the point of that particular passage of Genesis as well as the rest of scripture.
But if you are talking about John 3 and Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus and particularly what Jesus says in John 3:8... and thus propagating that the answer to your question is the Holy Spirit, as He is "like the wind," I agree in principle. However, nowhere in Genesis 3 do we read about any wind, and Jesus is talking in Genesis 3 about being born again of the Spirit, and that's not happening in Genesis 3; Adam and Eve died that day, just as God said they would in Genesis 2:17 ~ they became dead in their sin.
I will say again that I think the Holy Spirit was present, but He was not the only Member of the triune Jehovah present in Eden in Genesis 3. The Father is Spirit (John 4:24), and the Holy Spirit is, well, Spirit, of course, so do they make the sound of walking, as we read in Genesis 3:8? I say no, and in view of that, I say Jesus was there, too.
But it's really not of any great importance that we agree on this.
Grace and peace to you.
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