A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

Lord Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

 

[Kermos]

So there are no characters in the Bible that have one of God's title in it, namely el, as in Emmanuel?

Maybe I just misunderstood, because I think the following you already know:
Let's see, there's Samuel, Ezekiel, Daniel, Elijah, Elam, Elihu, Eliezar... I could go on for a long time listing all the characters that had el as part of their name, but I have be somewhere next week.

Apparently having a title of God (El) in a name doesn't make them all YHWH. As an added bonus, that is in perfect accord with 1 Cor 8:6 where we learn the only God is the Father. It all fits like a hand in a glove!

The closing paragraphs of the prior post that God had me make to you clearly explained that Lord Jesus has a special place with the Father because Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30).

Samuel does not occupy that special place that Jesus occupies as One with the Father.

Daniel occupies not that special position that Immanuel occupies as One with the Father.

Michael is not in the special place that Jesus, Immanuel, occupies as One with the Father.

That's the enough to establish the pattern.

Since Lord Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30), then Jesus lives in the special place of being Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

I have looked at John many times and I can't get past the stated reason for him having written his Gospel.

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
​

It's the very Christ that God told Eve he'd send through her seed (Gen 3:15). Look at Genesis 1 and you'll see that seed always produces an offspring of the same nature as the parent. Adam & Eve weren't God. Nor were they a god-human hybrid. They were human through and through. Yet another significant clue to Jesus' nature that Trinitarians are forced to ignore along with the half dozen verses that plainly call Jesus a man as opposed to absolutely 0 verses that as clearly say he is God. Then there's the simple fact that Jesus prayed to God all the time. If he were God that'd be a non-sequitur. And why would Jesus say that God always listened to him. If he were God that would be another non-sequitur. I mean, wow, God listens to Himself! What to you know! Surprise, surprise. Half the Bible becomes like that if we mix up the two leading characters. It'd be like mixing up the whale Moby Dick with Captain Ahab. It'd be a weird story to say the least. That's what happens when we make Jesus God. The whole book becomes a fairy tale with no basis in reality.

Well, I don't read it that way. But there is plenty of grammatical evidence for reading it as, "...The word was godly." Reading it that way fits perfectly with the reason John wrote the Bible, i.e., not the Jesus is God, but that he is the son of God the Messiah. The logos is a plan God had in mind. It, like "wisdom" in the OT is not a person at all. It was personified as a figure of speech, but a "word" does not actually become a god or a man. Now we could say that the plan reached it's culmination when Jesus was born and followed his instructions, the logos, the plan of God to perfection.

Dear Friend, are you closing your eyes and arguing against:

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created..."
John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness = 3x

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

John 1:3 Through Him/Word/Son all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

This is UNDENIABLE except thru UNBELIEF.

 

[Aunty Jane]

“A man convinced against his will...is of the same opinion still”.....

Deaf ears... blinded eyes... closed hearts. The echo chamber still reverberates...

 

[David in NJ]

“A man convinced against his will...is of the same opinion still”.....

Deaf ears... blinded eyes... closed hearts. The echo chamber still reverberates...

Aunty Jane that thinks 'a god' is the Word
Not one who knows ever heard this which is absurd
the Word was God from the beginning way before there was any sinning

HE was before the world existed
yet HE brought forth HIS PLAN
to create in HIS image - just a man
the man was alone so the Son did sow
from the rib of man - a wedding plan you know
woman from the man did not obey the rule
she became a tool for the serpent fool
So the Word walked and looked in the Garden
but Adam and Eve fell, for sin had hardened
naked and afraid their sin they could not brave
before HIM, who now alone, walked in the Garden

HIS Plan not thwarted by sinful man
HE covered Adam and Eve with the skins of a lamb

Then HE, who was God in the beginning, that the SPIRIT calls the WORD
Was sent from the FATHER to Shepherd all who heard
Come unto ME all ye needing REST
My SON who is Immanuel is ONE with ME - have you not heard?
IAM is who IAM the SON with the PLAN
humble yourself before HIM says the FATHER of HIS MAN
All worship and honor belongs to the FATHER and the SON
these THREE will never separate for THEY are ONE

 

[DavidB]

So you're using the scriptures and the normal usage of simple words to prove a point while ignoring tradition? What a concept! And, wow, it works! We can actually allow Jesus to be the son of God instead of God Himself if we do that.

Yeah, but no point in using our God given brains and logic. Just take the nonsensical idea by faith. Heck, that we we can even prove God is a Martian. All you have to do is take it by faith. No need for it to make sense......I trust you know I'm being facetious now.

“A man convinced against his will...is of the same opinion still”.....

Deaf ears... blinded eyes... closed hearts. The echo chamber still reverberates...

Repeating the truth over and over will do them no good. It doesn’t take long to see if someone is rightly disposed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane that thinks 'a god' is the Word
Not one who knows ever heard this which is absurd
the Word was God from the beginning way before there was any sinning

You speak without knowledge of the original language.
Do some research on the Greek word “theos”....you might then realize why you can’t understand the concept or the scope of it in English. It is your ignorance letting you down David. Do some deeper research.

HE was before the world existed
yet HE brought forth HIS PLAN
to create in HIS image - just a man
the man was alone so the Son did sow
from the rib of man - a wedding plan you know
woman from the man did not obey the rule
she became a tool for the serpent fool
So the Word walked and looked in the Garden
but Adam and Eve fell, for sin had hardened
naked and afraid there sin they could not brave
before HIM, who now alone, walked in the Garden

Even your interpretation of Genesis if full of errors. Your mind is stuck in a tiny box.....venture outside of that and see the whole picture. Staring at the pixels on a TV screen will not come into focus until you stand back to see the whole picture.

God had already created all he needed in the spirit realm, and we have no idea how long all the heavenly creatures who came into being, existed before God decided to ventured into his next phase.....material creation. We do know that his “firstborn” was his first and only direct creation because the scriptures tell us that all things came into existence from God through the agency of his son. (Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:3)

What was God’s purpose in creating the material universe? Obviously, it was not just for one insignificant planet to become host to mortal living creatures. But it was perhaps the starting point for something much grander....the Universe was in all probability, going to have other planets prepared as the earth was, to host life. But God was not going to create ‘robots’ who would just serve him mechanically, but as it was demonstrated with the angelic sons of God, these were created with free will. Their service to their Creator was to be willing and out of love, which is God’s most dominant quality. (1 John 4:8)

In order to establish his will and purpose, it was necessary to have a time period where all issues related to free will could be ironed out as they arose. It is why God rested from his creative works, but he did not rest from his purpose in connection with the human race. Free will was put to the ultimate test because it was abused by a spirit creature first of all, who then planned to hijack the human race for his own selfish purpose by tempting them to abuse their free will. Because of those three rebels, God’s original purpose was derailed temporarily whist He dealt with the rebellion in a way that would ensure that no rebel would ever challenge His Sovereignty again. His ultimate purpose could not move forward until that was accomplished.

Since God’s angelic sons as well as his human creation made the decision to abuse this precious gift, God allowed the results of those acts of disobedience to test every one of us. God would not interfere with our choices, but provided his word and the sacrifice of his son to bail us out of the situation that was not caused by us, but affects us all nonetheless. The thousand year reign of Christ will bring us back to the beginning....back to the paradise conditions on earth that God prepared for them, but was lost due to disobedience.

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us that we will get it all back.....not in heaven, but right here on earth, but first “the former things” that cause pain, suffering and death, have to “pass away”.

HIS Plan not thwarted by sinful man
HE covered Adam and Eve with the skins of a lamb

Where does it say the skins of a lamb? Animal skins were provided for obvious reasons....to cover them for modesty, and to protect them from the hostile environment outside the garden, where there was no prepared garden, but “thorns and thistles” out there on cursed ground.

Then HE, who was God in the beginning, that the SPIRIT calls the WORD
Was sent from the FATHER to Shepherd all who heard
Come unto ME all ye needing REST
My SON who is Immanuel is ONE with ME - have you not heard?
IAM is who IAM the SON with the PLAN
humble yourself before HIM says the FATHER of HIS MAN
All worship and honor belongs to the FATHER and the SON
these THREE will never separate for THEY are ONE

And not a single word you just said has any basis in scripture....it is your indoctrination....but it will never be mine.

The son had a “beginning” but the Eternal Father did not. To speak of a “beginning” in connection with Yahweh is nonsense unless it refers to his creation. You cannot seem to wrap your head around anything that is not part of your own beliefs, no matter how many scriptures are shown to you.

You and your friend @Kermos just hold each other up because you accept the same party line.
But there is no trinity in the Bible....it was invented by the Catholic Church along with a bunch of other equally pagan concepts.....like immortality of the soul, the adoration of Mary as “the mother of God”, and hellfire. Do you subscribe to those as well? They all came from the same place.

 

[jaybird]

You deny Apostolic teaching about Jesus because the Apostle Thomas says "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Thomas, being a Jew, knew the Commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so when Thomas called Jesus "my God" then Thomas meant that Jesus is YHWH God because Thomas has no gods before YHWH God, that is, Jesus is YHWH God according to the words of the Apostle Thomas.
Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

no i am not denying the Apostles, i am putting your teaching to the test and it is failing. when you put someones idea to the test and their response is something like "you disagree with the bible/ Jesus/ Apostles, etc, this is always a good rule of thumb that they have nothing with substance and are very desperate.
Apostles would never resort to such things, they would just prove you wrong with scripture, logic and plane reasoning.

The very moment Thomas said "my God" (John 20:28) to Yeshua HaMashiyach, Thomas made clear that Jesus is El Elyon (God Most High), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

and this right here is just straight up micky mouse logic, there is nothing in the bible that teaches such things. its weird how you guys take every passage in the bible and turn it into the trinity, "thou shall not steal" - Trinity!!

 

[Kermos]

Yeah, but he still can't explain a son being his own Father.

Lord Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30); therefore, Jesus includes the person of Jesus in the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4), and Jesus includes the person of the Father in the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4). The Father is the Father and the Son is the Son.

You can't explain the Word of God righteously.

 

[Kermos]

this doesnt work, Jesus says that they may be one "JUST AS" we are one

that "just as" is important. i made it real big because you guys love to ignore these things. it means what ever "one" they are talking about, and we can debate that till the cows come home, it matters nothing because the "one" in question is the exact same as each other. so if Jesus made the statement proclaiming He was the Most High, then we have to apply that to all believers are each other, which we know is wrong.

@Aunty Jane @Rich R @tigger 2 (the 3 of you are included because you liked jaybird's post) @jaybird

The four of you are linguistically incompetent fools.

"This is a color" just as "that is a color".

The "this" is not the "that".

Lord Jesus says "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:21).

Jesus did not say "they also may be one with Us" - which is what you convey.

Lord Jesus continues "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one" (John 17:22).

Jesus distinguishes between two ones - to clarify - (1) His first mention of "one" in the verse being about the children of God with "they may be one", but (2) His second mention of "one" in the verse being God.

Jesus includes Himself as being God because He says "We are one".

We just covered fundamental grammar, and more importantly we covered Spiritual Truth (John 14:6).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

The four of you fail to understand the Word of God.

Since Lord Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30), then Jesus lives in the special place of being Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

You speak without knowledge of the original language.
Do some research on the Greek word “theos”....you might then realize why you can’t understand the concept or the scope of it in English. It is your ignorance letting you down David. Do some deeper research.


Even your interpretation of Genesis if full of errors. Your mind is stuck in a tiny box.....venture outside of that and see the whole picture. Staring at the pixels on a TV screen will not come into focus until you stand back to see the whole picture.

God had already created all he needed in the spirit realm, and we have no idea how long all the heavenly creatures who came into being, existed before God decided to ventured into his next phase.....material creation. We do know that his “firstborn” was his first and only direct creation because the scriptures tell us that all things came into existence from God through the agency of his son. (Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:3)

What was God’s purpose in creating the material universe? Obviously, it was not just for one insignificant planet to become host to mortal living creatures. But it was perhaps the starting point for something much grander....the Universe was in all probability, going to have other planets prepared as the earth was, to host life. But God was not going to create ‘robots’ who would just serve him mechanically, but as it was demonstrated with the angelic sons of God, these were created with free will. Their service to their Creator was to be willing and out of love, which is God’s most dominant quality. (1 John 4:8)

In order to establish his will and purpose, it was necessary to have a time period where all issues related to free will could be ironed out as they arose. It is why God rested from his creative works, but he did not rest from his purpose in connection with the human race. Free will was put to the ultimate test because it was abused by a spirit creature first of all, who then planned to hijack the human race for his own selfish purpose by tempting them to abuse their free will. Because of those three rebels, God’s original purpose was derailed temporarily whist He dealt with the rebellion in a way that would ensure that no rebel would ever challenge His Sovereignty again. His ultimate purpose could not move forward until that was accomplished.

Since God’s angelic sons as well as his human creation made the decision to abuse this precious gift, God allowed the results of those acts of disobedience to test every one of us. God would not interfere with our choices, but provided his word and the sacrifice of his son to bail us out of the situation that was not caused by us, but affects us all nonetheless. The thousand year reign of Christ will bring us back to the beginning....back to the paradise conditions on earth that God prepared for them, but was lost due to disobedience.

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us that we will get it all back.....not in heaven, but right here on earth, but first “the former things” that cause pain, suffering and death, have to “pass away”.


Where does it say the skins of a lamb? Animal skins were provided for obvious reasons....to cover them for modesty, and to protect them from the hostile environment outside the garden, where there was no prepared garden, but “thorns and thistles” out there on cursed ground.


And not a single word you just said has any basis in scripture....it is your indoctrination....but it will never be mine.

The son had a “beginning” but the Eternal Father did not. To speak of a “beginning” in connection with Yahweh is nonsense unless it refers to his creation. You cannot seem to wrap your head around anything that is not part of your own beliefs, no matter how many scriptures are shown to you.

You and your friend @Kermos just hold each other up because you accept the same party line.
But there is no trinity in the Bible....it was invented by the Catholic Church along with a bunch of other equally pagan concepts.....like immortality of the soul, the adoration of Mary as “the mother of God”, and hellfire. Do you subscribe to those as well? They all came from the same place.

Denial will lead you straight to a trial
in the court of heaven where no sin can be hidden
before HIM who is FIRST and the LAST
the ALPHA and OMEGA to Him you should run fast
John turned to hear this Voice behind him
Standing there the SON Radiant and Bright
John fell to his knees in worship and fear
God the Son with love drew near
YES HE is the ONE who was Dead but now Alive
In His hands the Keys that Conquered over all the lies

 

[Kermos]

.............................................
The "corrupted Bibles" are all those which have "the Word was God" and have removed the name of God (YHWH in Hebrew) in their translations in most or all 6000+ places it occurs in the OT Hebrew manuscripts.

The excuses given by trinitarians for translating "God" at John 1:1c have been made up in the past century and found to be false by any who actually examined them. - Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity And/or Examining the Trinity

The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned below.

In reality, we have many ancient manuscripts of the Bible available for examination and cross referencing to determine accuracy of scribal duplication efforts.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to about 350 AD, and the facsimile is available online at Codex Sinaiticus - Home .

We have Greek manuscripts that predate the Roman Catholic Church.

The checks and balances for the source material of the Greek for the Bible results in accuracy.

We have accurate Greek manuscripts that result in accurate translations into English - but not always such as the intentionally corrupt New World Translation Bible.

Because God has preserved the Word of God, the Bible contains Truth (John 14:6).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

You speak without knowledge of the original language.
Do some research on the Greek word “theos”....you might then realize why you can’t understand the concept or the scope of it in English. It is your ignorance letting you down David. Do some deeper research.


Even your interpretation of Genesis if full of errors. Your mind is stuck in a tiny box.....venture outside of that and see the whole picture. Staring at the pixels on a TV screen will not come into focus until you stand back to see the whole picture.

God had already created all he needed in the spirit realm, and we have no idea how long all the heavenly creatures who came into being, existed before God decided to ventured into his next phase.....material creation. We do know that his “firstborn” was his first and only direct creation because the scriptures tell us that all things came into existence from God through the agency of his son. (Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:3)

What was God’s purpose in creating the material universe? Obviously, it was not just for one insignificant planet to become host to mortal living creatures. But it was perhaps the starting point for something much grander....the Universe was in all probability, going to have other planets prepared as the earth was, to host life. But God was not going to create ‘robots’ who would just serve him mechanically, but as it was demonstrated with the angelic sons of God, these were created with free will. Their service to their Creator was to be willing and out of love, which is God’s most dominant quality. (1 John 4:8)

In order to establish his will and purpose, it was necessary to have a time period where all issues related to free will could be ironed out as they arose. It is why God rested from his creative works, but he did not rest from his purpose in connection with the human race. Free will was put to the ultimate test because it was abused by a spirit creature first of all, who then planned to hijack the human race for his own selfish purpose by tempting them to abuse their free will. Because of those three rebels, God’s original purpose was derailed temporarily whist He dealt with the rebellion in a way that would ensure that no rebel would ever challenge His Sovereignty again. His ultimate purpose could not move forward until that was accomplished.

Since God’s angelic sons as well as his human creation made the decision to abuse this precious gift, God allowed the results of those acts of disobedience to test every one of us. God would not interfere with our choices, but provided his word and the sacrifice of his son to bail us out of the situation that was not caused by us, but affects us all nonetheless. The thousand year reign of Christ will bring us back to the beginning....back to the paradise conditions on earth that God prepared for them, but was lost due to disobedience.

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us that we will get it all back.....not in heaven, but right here on earth, but first “the former things” that cause pain, suffering and death, have to “pass away”.


Where does it say the skins of a lamb? Animal skins were provided for obvious reasons....to cover them for modesty, and to protect them from the hostile environment outside the garden, where there was no prepared garden, but “thorns and thistles” out there on cursed ground.


And not a single word you just said has any basis in scripture....it is your indoctrination....but it will never be mine.

The son had a “beginning” but the Eternal Father did not. To speak of a “beginning” in connection with Yahweh is nonsense unless it refers to his creation. You cannot seem to wrap your head around anything that is not part of your own beliefs, no matter how many scriptures are shown to you.

You and your friend @Kermos just hold each other up because you accept the same party line.
But there is no trinity in the Bible....it was invented by the Catholic Church along with a bunch of other equally pagan concepts.....like immortality of the soul, the adoration of Mary as “the mother of God”, and hellfire. Do you subscribe to those as well? They all came from the same place.

You write without knowledge of the language, and the following paragraphs illuminates your deceptions. By the way, you neglect to mention the recent poster named @PinSeeker. @David in NJ, it seems Aunty Jane has much trouble.

The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation about your deceptions is in the following links:

You take Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

You impose your evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

You deliberately try to deceive about John 1:18 then you extend that deception toward John 1:1 in your vain claim that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #815 in this thread)

as well as

You posted the Greek source word's definition of "beginning" in Revelation 3:14 as "ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." - no where in the definition is "created" - but truly Jesus is the commencement of all the Resurrection as God had me convey to you, and commencement is in the definition (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #820 in this thread)

as well as

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this thread)

as well as

You serve your father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

You are a dangerously unreliable source.

 

[Kermos]

no i am not denying the Apostles, i am putting your teaching to the test and it is failing. when you put someones idea to the test and their response is something like "you disagree with the bible/ Jesus/ Apostles, etc, this is always a good rule of thumb that they have nothing with substance and are very desperate.
Apostles would never resort to such things, they would just prove you wrong with scripture, logic and plane reasoning.



and this right here is just straight up micky mouse logic, there is nothing in the bible that teaches such things. its weird how you guys take every passage in the bible and turn it into the trinity, "thou shall not steal" - Trinity!!

This post is for you too @Aunty Jane since you liked jaybird's post.

You have more than one God because you say that John 1:1 contains "the Word was a god". "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

You wickedly steal the deity of Jesus Christ in your heart's treasure. "You shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).

You are in violation of at least two Commandments!

You most certainly deny Apostolic teaching about Jesus because the Apostle Thomas says "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Thomas, being a Jew, knew the Commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so when Thomas called Jesus "my God" then Thomas meant that Jesus is YHWH God because Thomas has no gods before YHWH God, that is, Jesus is YHWH God according to the words of the Apostle Thomas.

Thomas is not going to call Jesus God resulting in two gods.

The very moment Thomas said "my God" (John 20:28) to Yeshua HaMashiyach, Thomas made clear that Jesus is El Elyon (God Most High), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Rich R]

The four of you are linguistically incompetent fools.

And that's where your argument breaks down; calling a fool someone that God calls his child.

And coming from someone who apparently doesn't know that a son can in nowise be his own father. Now there's some real interesting linguistics!

 

[DavidB]

And that's where your argument breaks down; calling a fool someone that God calls his child.

And coming from someone who apparently doesn't know that a son can in nowise be his own father. Now there's some real interesting linguistics!

Jesus said his disciples would be recognized by their fruits, especially the love they show. Compare the fruitage of God’s spirit with the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-23 and it is obvious how a true Christian should at least try to conduct him or herself. Sad really.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus said his disciples would be recognized by their fruits, especially the love they show. Compare the fruitage of God’s spirit with the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-23 and it is obvious how a true Christian should at least try to conduct him or herself. Sad really.

Yeah, i did not like that "fool" part either.
If you look at the posts from both sides there have been accusations that were not needful.
i know i have made mistakes before and asked for forgiveness.

The worse thing one can do is call God a liar by adding to His words = "the Word was a god".

 

[DavidB]

Yeah, i did not like that "fool" part either.
If you look at the posts from both sides there have been accusations that were not needful.
i know i have made mistakes before and asked for forgiveness.

The worse thing one can do is call God a liar by adding to His words = "the Word was a god".

You can disagree but it is unnecessary to say someone is calling God a liar by translating the last theos in John 1:1 as indefinite or adjectival. Acknowledged Bible scholars such as James Moffat and Edgar Goodspeed translated it in such a way by saying “the Word was divine.” Wouldn’t it be nice if we could just exchange information for others to consider and let everyone decide for themselves. We will all render our own account to God. He will judge through Jesus Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

You can disagree but it is unnecessary to say someone is calling God a liar by translating the last theos in John 1:1 as indefinite or adjectival. Acknowledged Bible scholars such as James Moffat and Edgar Goodspeed translated it in such a way by saying “the Word was divine.”

Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
Isaiah 45

Changing Scripture to say the Word was 'a god/divine' would be placing a false savior before God.
Angels are divine beings but they are not God. This we know for they were created by the Word and all the angels worship HIM.
Your eternal destination hangs on who the Word is.

 

[DavidB]

Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
Isaiah 45

Changing Scripture to say the Word was 'a god/divine' would be placing a false savior before God.
Angels are divine beings but they are not God. This we know for they were created by the Word and all the angels worship HIM.
Your eternal destination hangs on who the Word is.

Thank you for a civil response. I don’t agree with your view but I think others have already commented on it.