A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[David in NJ]

Thank you for a civil response. I don’t agree with your view but I think others have already commented on it.

Your welcome and i hope you consider the declarations made in Isaiah of who the Lord is when compared accurately to Genesis, the Gospel and Revelation.

Peace and Blessing to know Christ who has Risen and conquered death on our behalf.

 

[amigo de christo]

Aunty Jane that thinks 'a god' is the Word
Not one who knows ever heard this which is absurd
the Word was God from the beginning way before there was any sinning

HE was before the world existed
yet HE brought forth HIS PLAN
to create in HIS image - just a man
the man was alone so the Son did sow
from the rib of man - a wedding plan you know
woman from the man did not obey the rule
she became a tool for the serpent fool
So the Word walked and looked in the Garden
but Adam and Eve fell, for sin had hardened
naked and afraid their sin they could not brave
before HIM, who now alone, walked in the Garden

HIS Plan not thwarted by sinful man
HE covered Adam and Eve with the skins of a lamb

Then HE, who was God in the beginning, that the SPIRIT calls the WORD
Was sent from the FATHER to Shepherd all who heard
Come unto ME all ye needing REST
My SON who is Immanuel is ONE with ME - have you not heard?
IAM is who IAM the SON with the PLAN
humble yourself before HIM says the FATHER of HIS MAN
All worship and honor belongs to the FATHER and the SON
these THREE will never separate for THEY are ONE

Sound it out david . to the last and final breath . And let all that has breath praise the glorious Lord

 

[amigo de christo]

Sound it out david . to the last and final breath . And let all that has breath praise the glorious Lord

God is HIS WORD . and THE WORD became flesh and dwelt among us .

 

[amigo de christo]

Aunty Jane that thinks 'a god' is the Word
Not one who knows ever heard this which is absurd
the Word was God from the beginning way before there was any sinning

HE was before the world existed
yet HE brought forth HIS PLAN
to create in HIS image - just a man
the man was alone so the Son did sow
from the rib of man - a wedding plan you know
woman from the man did not obey the rule
she became a tool for the serpent fool
So the Word walked and looked in the Garden
but Adam and Eve fell, for sin had hardened
naked and afraid their sin they could not brave
before HIM, who now alone, walked in the Garden

HIS Plan not thwarted by sinful man
HE covered Adam and Eve with the skins of a lamb

Then HE, who was God in the beginning, that the SPIRIT calls the WORD
Was sent from the FATHER to Shepherd all who heard
Come unto ME all ye needing REST
My SON who is Immanuel is ONE with ME - have you not heard?
IAM is who IAM the SON with the PLAN
humble yourself before HIM says the FATHER of HIS MAN
All worship and honor belongs to the FATHER and the SON
these THREE will never separate for THEY are ONE

GOD is HIS SPIRIT and HIS WORD .

 

[David in NJ]

GOD is HIS SPIRIT and HIS WORD .

i am glad you picked up on that in my poem

 

[David in NJ]

Sound it out david . to the last and final breath . And let all that has breath praise the glorious Lord

Speaking of "breath" please go check out my other poem on this Thread - 'Gospel of John to Revelation'

 

[Aunty Jane]

Changing Scripture to say the Word was 'a god/divine' would be placing a false savior before God.

What do you think placing two “gods” in the Father’s place does? You have three “gods” who can all talk to each other, and be in three different places at the same time.....where will I find such a concept in God’s word? The Jews had never heard of such a thing....and no Jew would ever have considered their Messiah as anything but 100% human.

Both Yahweh and his son qualify as “saviors” because the one who sends the savior is also a savior. You again get hung up on words you have never studied in their original languages.

Angels are divine beings but they are not God. This we know for they were created by the Word and all the angels worship HIM.
Your eternal destination hangs on who the Word is.

But David...so does your eternal destination hang on who the Word is.....
What if you are among those who have it all wrong and are committing a dreadful blasphemy?

No angel ever “worshipped” the son.....because the son joins them in worshipping the Father that they all have in common. He is “Our Father” too, as Jesus said. Jesus tells us to worship only the Father, but you worship two other “gods” who supposedly share his place. There is no “God the Son” and there is no “God the Holy Spirit” ever mentioned in a single passage of scripture. The Catholic Church made up this travesty....and it saddens me greatly that people not only embrace it but will defend it to their death.

We have shown you time and again the meaning of the Greek word “theos” but apparently you have not read or acknowledged it in any way, continuing to see it as a word describing only Yahweh.....you couldn’t be more wrong. The English translation does not convey what John accurately said....The Word was “WITH God” and “the Word was a divine being”. This is not a trinity.....it is a partnership of Yahweh and his “firstborn” son. Do you understand the meaning of “firstborn”? Unless he was produced by his pre-existent Father, then the term “firstborn” could never have been used to describe him. It would not fit. He was “firstborn” from “the beginning”...remember?

I have posted the Greek to show you the word that trinitarian translators deliberately leave out. Have you been deceived along with the masses? “Few” are on the road to life because the devil has them travelling merrily in ignorance on a dead end super highway. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Only God can lead a receptive heart to find the exit ramp where the “narrow gate leads” to the cramped road to life . Why is is cramped, David? Why is the gate “narrow”? Why do so “few” find it?

 

[DavidB]

Both Yahweh and his son qualify as “saviors” because the one who sends the savior is also a savior. You again get hung up on words you have never studied in their original languages.

Jude 25 New Revised Standard Version
"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

Yes, God the Father is the source of salvation. We are saved "through" Jesus Christ. Jesus is our Savior because God gave him that authority.

 

[DavidB]

What do you think placing two “gods” in the Father’s place does? You have three “gods” who can all talk to each other, and be in three different places at the same time.....where will I find such a concept in God’s word? The Jews had never heard of such a thing....and no Jew would ever have considered their Messiah as anything but 100% human.

Both Yahweh and his son qualify as “saviors” because the one who sends the savior is also a savior. You again get hung up on words you have never studied in their original languages.


But David...so does your eternal destination hang on who the Word is.....
What if you are among those who have it all wrong and are committing a dreadful blasphemy?

No angel ever “worshipped” the son.....because the son joins them in worshipping the Father that they have in common. He is “Our Father” too, as Jesus said. Jesus tells us to worship only the Father, but you worship two other “gods” who supposedly share his place. There is no “God the Son” and there is no “God the Holy Spirit” ever mentioned in a single passage of scripture. The Catholic Church made up this travesty....and it saddens me greatly that people not only embrace it but will defend it to their death.

We have shown you time and again the meaning of the Greek word “theos” but apparently you have not read or acknowledged it in any way, continuing to see it as a word describing only Yahweh.....you couldn’t be more wrong. The English translation does not convey what John accurately said....The Word was “WITH God” and “the Word was a divine being”. This is not a trinity.....it is a partnership of Yahweh and his “firstborn” son. Do you understand the meaning of “firstborn”? Unless he was produced by his pre-existent Father, then the term “firstborn” could never have been used to describe him. It would not fit. He was “firstborn” from “the beginning”...remember?

I have posted the Greek to show you the word that trinitarian translators deliberately leave out. Have you been deceived along with the masses? “Few” are on the road to life because the devil has them travelling merrily in ignorance on a dead end super highway. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Only God can lead a receptive heart to find the exit ramp where the “narrow gate leads” to the cramped road to life . Why is is cramped, David? Why is the gate “narrow”? Why do so “few” find it?

Why do so few find the narrow gate?
“The prophets prophesy lies, And the priests dominate by their own authority. And my own people love it that way. But what will you do when the end comes?”
Jeremiah 5:31

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[David in NJ]

What do you think placing two “gods” in the Father’s place does? You have three “gods” who can all talk to each other, and be in three different places at the same time.....where will I find such a concept in God’s word? The Jews had never heard of such a thing....and no Jew would ever have considered their Messiah as anything but 100% human.

Both Yahweh and his son qualify as “saviors” because the one who sends the savior is also a savior. You again get hung up on words you have never studied in their original languages.


But David...so does your eternal destination hang on who the Word is.....
What if you are among those who have it all wrong and are committing a dreadful blasphemy?

No angel ever “worshipped” the son.....because the son joins them in worshipping the Father that they have in common. He is “Our Father” too, as Jesus said. Jesus tells us to worship only the Father, but you worship two other “gods” who supposedly share his place. There is no “God the Son” and there is no “God the Holy Spirit” ever mentioned in a single passage of scripture. The Catholic Church made up this travesty....and it saddens me greatly that people not only embrace it but will defend it to their death.

We have shown you time and again the meaning of the Greek word “theos” but apparently you have not read or acknowledged it in any way, continuing to see it as a word describing only Yahweh.....you couldn’t be more wrong. The English translation does not convey what John accurately said....The Word was “WITH God” and “the Word was a divine being”. This is not a trinity.....it is a partnership of Yahweh and his “firstborn” son. Do you understand the meaning of “firstborn”? Unless he was produced by his pre-existent Father, then the term “firstborn” could never have been used to describe him. It would not fit. He was “firstborn” from “the beginning”...remember?

I have posted the Greek to show you the word that trinitarian translators deliberately leave out. Have you been deceived along with the masses? “Few” are on the road to life because the devil has them travelling merrily in ignorance on a dead end super highway. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Only God can lead a receptive heart to find the exit ramp where the “narrow gate leads” to the cramped road to life . Why is is cramped, David? Why is the gate “narrow”? Why do so “few” find it?

My Dear Aunty Jane,
i once heard a testimony of a brilliant scientist who thought of himself as a proud atheist.
"How foolish are such simple minded people who have to kneel before a non-existant god," so he thought.
Then one day the Lord opened his eyes to see and the whole world was seen as it truely is = a magnificient Creation born from a Creator.

Later he would ponder with his brilliant mind and ask himself, "What magnitude of intelligence must God contain within Himself in order to create all that we see, including ourselves???"

Based on his scientific knowledge and the evidence of life and all we see, he estimated that God must be at least 10 Trillion times greater then the intellect of the smartest minds ever to walk this earth(excluding Jesus of course).

If this is so, and i see no reason as to how it could be any less so, then why would any of us ever think that we could understand who God is and how HE could be Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit and all THREE are ONE!!!

Today, the smartest minds cannot figure out exactly how the Great Pyramids were built!!!
And you or i think we can understand God!!!

What has God availed to us, Aunty Jane and David??? = HIS WORD

Can we believe God just on His Word???

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law,
or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

This faith which the Scripture speaks of is not just a mere head acknowledgment of the existence of a Creator, but of Who the Creator IS and what HE tells us that we are to fully believe and trust in HIM even when we cannot possibly understand the deep things of God.

Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand,
Measured heaven with a span
And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure?
Weighed the mountains in scales
And the hills in a balance?
Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?
With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him,
And taught Him in the path of justice?
Who taught Him knowledge,
And showed Him the way of understanding?
Isaiah ch40

 

[Kermos]

Jesus said his disciples would be recognized by their fruits, especially the love they show. Compare the fruitage of God’s spirit with the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-23 and it is obvious how a true Christian should at least try to conduct him or herself. Sad really.

Lord Jesus says "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment" (Matthew 22:37-38).

I find it utterly putrid and EVIL when people DECEIVE and/or LIE about the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14), such as @jaybird's post in the chain of posts to which you have now replied.

The next post clearly illuminates jaybird's lie.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

And that's where your argument breaks down; calling a fool someone that God calls his child.

And coming from someone who apparently doesn't know that a son can in nowise be his own father. Now there's some real interesting linguistics!

Exclusively, a child of God is born of God, so we born of God can see the Kingdom of God and King Jesus (John 3:3). King Jesus says He is God.

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

A person who says Jesus is not God is not born of God.

Lord Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30); therefore, Jesus includes the person of Jesus in the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4), and Jesus includes the person of the Father in the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4). The Father is the Father and the Son is the Son. I did not write that the Father is the Son, and I did not write that the Son is the Father.

You can't explain the Word of God righteously, and you misrepresent that which I wrote.

NOW, BACK TO YOUR AGREEMENT WITH @jaybird, @Aunty Jane, AND @tigger 2.

Let's look at the grammar of John 17:21-22, but the phrase "just as" needs to be examined because you all have such a profound problem with it's linguistical implication. Here is the example:

"This thing has a color" just as "that thing has a color".

The "this thing" is not the "that thing".

Both the "this thing" and the "that thing" have a color.

Nonetheless, the "this thing" is not the "that thing".

With that fundamental grammar established, let's return to John 17:21-22.

Lord Jesus says "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:21).

Jesus did not say "they also may be one with Us" - which is what you convey.

Lord Jesus continues "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one" (John 17:22).

Jesus distinguishes between two ones - to clarify - (1) His first mention of "one" in the verse being about the children of God with "they may be one", but (2) His second mention of "one" in the verse being God.

Jesus includes Himself as being God because He says "We are one".

We just covered fundamental grammar, and more importantly we covered Spiritual Truth (John 14:6).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

The four of you fail to understand the Word of God.

Since Lord Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30), then Jesus lives in the special place of being Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Keiw]

Well i detest the pagan Rome harlot as much as God hates her = Revelation ch18

The Apostle John knew vividly of Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit.

What is MORE IMPORTANT then that is GENESIS, EXODUS, ISAIAH, Gospel of John, Acts, Revelation that speak of this Truth.

Every bible writer was brought up in the Israelite religion. Not one of them served a trinity ever while serving the true God-YHWH(Jehovah). That is 100% fact.

 

[Keiw]

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that He was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• 
  According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a dangerously unreliable source.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH (Revelation 1:8).

You only think i am adding stuff because you were taught errors.

 

[Keiw]

You have taken Proverbs chapter 8 out of context.

In effect, you add to and/or subtract from scripture, and that is evil.

@Aunty Jane is partaker in the evil with you because she liked your post.

I plan on providing more detail about your Proverbs 8 deception in another post, shortly.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

All who actually know God and his son, knows it is Jesus speaking at Prov 8. Its sad you dont know them, because your heart wants to.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2

Jesus is the everlasting Wisdom of God, and the Wisdom of God is brought forth (Proverbs 8:25).

The passage about Wisdom, Proverbs chapter 8, is rich in metaphor. The Book of Proverbs contains poetry, a part of the Ketuvim - the Kh in TaNaKh.

A metaphor is defined as "a figure of speech by which, from some supposed resemblance or analogy, a name, an attribute, or an action belonging to or characteristic of one object is assigned to another to which it is not literally applicable; the figurative transfer of a descriptive or affirmative word or phrase from one thing to another; implied comparison by transference of terms: as, the ship spread its wings to the breeze; 'Judah is a lion's whelp,' Gen. xlix. 9." (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.)

The opening of the Proverbs 8 passage makes the metaphorical element for the entire chapter abundantly clear with "Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice?" (Proverbs 8:1).

The writing of the Apostle Paul "Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24) is relevant about God's Wisdom because apart from God's wisdom there is only foolishness and folly. Jesus Christ is literally the Wisdom of God.

In Proverbs chapter 8, wisdom is portrayed as a female, that is, "her"; on the other hand, the Apostle Paul declares that wisdom is a male, that is, Christ Jesus, "Him"; therefore the opening verse of Proverbs 8 clearly marks the metaphorical application for the chapter.

Proverbs chapter 8 is a metaphorical writing, so anybody taking Proverbs 8 as literal is taking Proverbs 8 out of context.

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8:22

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old." (Proverbs 8:22, NASB)

"Jehovah possessed me -- the beginning of His way, Before His works since then." (Proverbs 8:22, YLT)

"The Lord created me the head of his ways for his works." (Proverbs 8:22, Septuagint - Apostolic Polyglot)

Proverbs 8 is a analogy, and the author is speaking metaphorically. Proverbs is poetry.

The word "created" (Strong's 2936 in the Septuagint's Proverbs 8:22 is more properly "founded" in the metaphorical sense and context of Proverbs. The word "founded" represents "established", as in establishing the King, that is, making the King apparent.

According to the Septuagint, YHWH God founded the Wisdom of God the beginning of God's ways for God's works.

"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), so the Wisdom of God, Jesus, begins the creation and completes the creation (Proverbs 8:22, Revelation 3:14), Jesus is the beginning of creation of God because Jesus is not created while Jesus performed the creative act.

The Proverbs 8:22 Septuagint passage does not state the Wisdom of God was created, rather "the beginning of God's ways for God's works" is the Wisdom of God.

The Hebrew language is more expressive and accurate than the Septuagint's Greek with respect to this matter!

Proverbs 8:22 of the TaNaKh (the Hebrew Bible) has the word "possessed" (Strong's 7069) which properly and truthfully conveys that YHWH God possessed Wisdom at the beginning of God's way, before God's works of old - God always has Wisdom.

Your Proverbs 8:22 delusion is exposed!

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) ABOUT PROVERBS 8:24-25

"When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water" (Proverbs 8:24, NASB).

"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:25, NASB).

"and before the abysses making; before the coming forth of the springs of waters:" (Proverbs 8:24, Septuagint - Apostolic Polyglot)

"before of the mountains the seating: and before all the hills he engenders me" (Proverbs 8:25, Septuagint - Apostolic Polyglot)

To be honest, the phrase "he engenders" in the Septuagint's Proverbs 8:25 is Strong's 1080 (literally birth, metaphorically endender, cause to arise, excite).

In the metaphorical context of Proverbs, the word "engenders" must be employed for the Septuagint - this is according to the Greek language, so the word "engenders" represents "cause to arise", as in cause to arise the King to the throne, that is, making the King abundantly apparent.

Again, the TaNaKh in the Hebrew language is more expressive and accurate than the Septuagint's Greek as will be demonstrated here.

The phrase "brought forth" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from chuwl (Stong's 2342 chuwl biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) with these definitions (in order):

1. dance
2. twist, writhe
3. whirl

with various subsections for the definitions.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" is among the definitions for "brought forth" - specifically in association with Proverbs 8:24 and Proverbs 8:25.

The phrase "waited for anxiously", that is "brought forth", conveys the debut of God's Wisdom.

The phrase "waited for anxiously" carries the meaning of an unveiling as in royalty being presented.

The Wisdom of God was waited for anxiously by the creation IS THE CONTEXT in Proverbs 8 and expressed explicitly in Proverbs 8:24-25.

The phrase "brought forth" is translated from the Hebrew word chuwl (Stong's 2342) which conveys danced, paraded, brought forth, presented, and displayed, not created.

God brought forth in majesty God's Wisdom; in other words, YHWH God displayed the Wisdom of God in wonderful regal array.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting - Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24). YHWH God is always full of the Wisdom of God!

Since those of you who think that the Wisdom of God was created according to your interpretation of Proverbs 8, then you hold dear to your heart that YHWH God was lacking/absent of Wisdom.

In effect, you accuse YHWH God of being stupid.

The Wisdom of God is everlasting. YHWH God is always full of Wisdom!
You shamelessly and foolishly claim that God was stupid because you say that God's Wisdom was created according to Proverbs 8 - so your heart's contention is that God was without God's Wisdom at some point in eternity past.

I didnt say Gods wisdom was created--you made that up. Jesus is the firstborn of all CREATION--Your teachers cant understand english.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

Lord Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

Yes, believe he was the one the one sent by God= the Messiah---That is what is being said.

 

[Aunty Jane]

My Dear Aunty Jane,
i once heard a testimony of a brilliant scientist who thought of himself as a proud atheist.
"How foolish are such simple minded people who have to kneel before a non-existant god," so he thought.
Then one day the Lord opened his eyes to see and the whole world was seen as it truely is = a magnificient Creation born from a Creator.

Later he would ponder with his brilliant mind and ask himself, "What magnitude of intelligence must God contain within Himself in order to create all that we see, including ourselves???"

Based on his scientific knowledge and the evidence of life and all we see, he estimated that God must be at least 10 Trillion times greater then the intellect of the smartest minds ever to walk this earth(excluding Jesus of course).

If this is so, and i see no reason as to how it could be any less so, then why would any of us ever think that we could understand who God is and how HE could be Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit and all THREE are ONE!!!

Today, the smartest minds cannot figure out exactly how the Great Pyramids were built!!!
And you or i think we can understand God!!!

What has God availed to us, Aunty Jane and David??? = HIS WORD

Can we believe God just on His Word???

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law,
or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

This faith which the Scripture speaks of is not just a mere head acknowledgment of the existence of a Creator, but of Who the Creator IS and what HE tells us that we are to fully believe and trust in HIM even when we cannot possibly understand the deep things of God.

Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand,
Measured heaven with a span
And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure?
Weighed the mountains in scales
And the hills in a balance?
Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?
With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him,
And taught Him in the path of justice?
Who taught Him knowledge,
And showed Him the way of understanding?
Isaiah ch40

David, you miss the whole point of everything that is said to you...."FAITH" is essential but it cannot be not BLIND, nor does it fly in the face of clear scripture. You are ignoring the scriptures that are given you, and steadfastly clinging to the errors taught by Christendom....these are the "weeds" of Jesus' parable. No one can doubt your sincerity, but repeating you errors does you no favors.

Please open your eyes and address what is said to you from God's word....you are like.....

The Jews of Jesus' day were like that too..... The Pharisees had them convinced them that what Jesus said was not true.....

 

[Kermos]

What do you think placing two “gods” in the Father’s place does? You have three “gods” who can all talk to each other, and be in three different places at the same time.....where will I find such a concept in God’s word? The Jews had never heard of such a thing....and no Jew would ever have considered their Messiah as anything but 100% human.

Both Yahweh and his son qualify as “saviors” because the one who sends the savior is also a savior. You again get hung up on words you have never studied in their original languages.


But David...so does your eternal destination hang on who the Word is.....
What if you are among those who have it all wrong and are committing a dreadful blasphemy?

No angel ever “worshipped” the son.....because the son joins them in worshipping the Father that they have in common. He is “Our Father” too, as Jesus said. Jesus tells us to worship only the Father, but you worship two other “gods” who supposedly share his place. There is no “God the Son” and there is no “God the Holy Spirit” ever mentioned in a single passage of scripture. The Catholic Church made up this travesty....and it saddens me greatly that people not only embrace it but will defend it to their death.

We have shown you time and again the meaning of the Greek word “theos” but apparently you have not read or acknowledged it in any way, continuing to see it as a word describing only Yahweh.....you couldn’t be more wrong. The English translation does not convey what John accurately said....The Word was “WITH God” and “the Word was a divine being”. This is not a trinity.....it is a partnership of Yahweh and his “firstborn” son. Do you understand the meaning of “firstborn”? Unless he was produced by his pre-existent Father, then the term “firstborn” could never have been used to describe him. It would not fit. He was “firstborn” from “the beginning”...remember?

I have posted the Greek to show you the word that trinitarian translators deliberately leave out. Have you been deceived along with the masses? “Few” are on the road to life because the devil has them travelling merrily in ignorance on a dead end super highway. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Only God can lead a receptive heart to find the exit ramp where the “narrow gate leads” to the cramped road to life . Why is is cramped, David? Why is the gate “narrow”? Why do so “few” find it?

Lord Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30); therefore, Jesus includes the person of Jesus in the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4), and Jesus includes the person of the Father in the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

The One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is the person of the Father with the person of the Word with the person of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-15).

On the other hand, you have two gods because you hold that John 1:1 reads "the Word was a god".

Therefore, you hold fast to the Father being one god while simultaneously you hold fast to the Word being a second god.

It is written "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), and you violate the Commandment in your heart.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

You only think i am adding stuff because you were taught errors.

All who actually know God and his son, knows it is Jesus speaking at Prov 8. Its sad you dont know them, because your heart wants to.

I didnt say Gods wisdom was created--you made that up. Jesus is the firstborn of all CREATION--Your teachers cant understand english.

Yes, believe he was the one the one sent by God= the Messiah---That is what is being said.

You are repeating your previously exposed LIES, @Keiw.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that He was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• 
  According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• 
  Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a dangerously unreliable source.