A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler @XFire @APAK

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[Wrangler]

Blah, blah, blah

next

Christophany, what are you doing in this thread? It is a question for those who have heard all the arguments for the trinity and rejected them.

Your, ‘next’ signature reveals a haughty heart.

 

[Kermos]

John 14.6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
States that Jesus is not the Father
I do believe that he is the I AM
And With that he is still the 1st creation of God the father he is also subordinate as in Isaiah 4511 from God the father and yet there is no savior beside him.

But Again I believe the words directly attributed to Jesus Christ. Who is also Yahweh Jehovah in the Old Testament.

In Ezekiel 48.35. On the new earth. Jesus states he will be in the temple

Who then is in heaven??

I also can't fathom a God that creates billions of stars only to inhabit 1 planet by 1 star.

I believe God the father reigns in heaven forever.
Also please use correct references as it was hard to follow without them
Thanks

Notice, the Lord's words recorded in John 14:6 do not include the words that Jesus was created, not even a hint that Jesus was created!

Look at Isaiah 45 again, XFire, because you wrongly wrote “Again Jesus himself states he has a maker” based upon Isaiah 45:11 previously and now you wrongly wrote "With that he is still the 1st creation of God the father he is also subordinate as in Isaiah 4511 from God the father and yet there is no savior beside him" - again you wickedly try to use Isaiah 45 to support your false claim that Jesus was created. The following scripture proves your LIE.

The fuller passage illuminates who the “his” is within the phrase “and his Maker” which is in the passage “Thus says YHWH, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: ‘Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons, And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands. It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands, and I ordained all their host'” (Isaiah 45:11-12).

Two crucial points:

1. the person “his” in Isaiah 45:11 is identified as “Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-an earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth” (Isaiah 45:9), just two verses earlier in the fuller passage; therefore, the “his” is an “earthenware vessel” which indicates people in general.
   
   God emphasizes the people in general aspect for “his” in Isaiah 45:11 with “Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’” (Isaiah 45:10) in the immediately preceding verse! That is NOT Jesus asking “What are you begetting” in rebellion to His Father, but that question is posed by the “his” within the phrase “and his Maker” (Isaiah 45:11).
   
   The “him” in Isaiah 45:10 is precisely the “his” in Isaiah 45:11, and that is not Jesus!
2. behold, the Apostle John declared of Jesus the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) “All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being” (John 1:3), and Isaiah the Prophet declared the Word of God with “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it” (Isaiah 45:12) in the same dialog continuing from Isaiah 45:11 which contains:
   • the identification of the One speaking the Word “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it” (Isaiah 45:12) is specifically revealed to be “YHWH, the Holy One of Israel” (Isaiah 45:11).
   • phrase “and his Maker” identifies “YHWH, the Holy One of Israel” (Isaiah 45:11) as the Maker of mankind.
   
   The Maker revealed in John 1:3 is the same Maker revealed in Isaiah 45:11-12, thus Jesus the Maker is “YHWH, the Holy One of Israel, and” mankind’s “Maker” (Isaiah 45:11)! Praise be to the Holy One of Israel!!!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM” (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 “God with us”), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Wrangler]

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

Appeal to Ignorance. You are using what Jesus did NOT say - the absence of evidence as evidence.

“I am” is not an identification of deity nor what God actually said to Moses. That you have to refer to such weak references to violate the Sh’ma, 1C and explicit text that only the Father is God, shows how weak the support is for the man-is-god thesis.

 

[Kermos]

Neither of us is lying. people dont purposely lie about what they believe is truth about God unless big $$$ is involved. So stop making yourself look foolish by keeping on saying that.

Here are posts proving your error--because your translations are erred and teach 2 different truths, 2 different Gods.

Psalm 45:7-- You( Jesus) have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners( angels)-- Even in the OT they knew Jesus has a God like all created beings do.
Hebrews 1:3-4-- 3)He ( Jesus) is the reflection of glory, and the exact representation( image) of his( God)very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power, and after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down on the right hand of the majesty in lofty places. 4) So he has become better than the angels( his partners) to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

Do you understand english? Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creation-Coll 1:15--He tells you so at Proverbs 8 , he is Gods master worker. Created direct-first and last, all other things created through him.

All who understand english can clearly see that without inheriting that name he was equal to the angels.
YOUR TRANSLATIONS ARE ERROR FILLED by the religion that came out of Rome, by satans will, centuries ago--LOOK.

People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5), so in effect you deliberately deceive.

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a wickedly unreliable source.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Brakelite]

We came from God. Does that make us God?

Our children come from us... That makes them human. We originally came from nothing. So no, we aren't God. Jesus came from the Father. Like begets like. Law of nature. Not my law, but the Creator's.

 

[APAK]

Wow, man, you just disagree with the very Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14)!

The Word of God, the Christ, declares without limitation nor exception "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

APAK, @tigger 2, @XFire and @Wrangler (you latter 3 by your APAK post agreement ikes) - no other scripture records a man making this awesome declaration to everlasting existence in prior time along with the words "ego eimi" (I AM) - Jesus alone makes such declaration.

Jesus made an exceptional declaration with "ego eimi" (I AM) because he expresses His everlasting existence In time past, and Only God exists everlastingly in time past.

The "ego eimi" (I AM) in John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 are Spiritually intertwined by the Christ as clearly shown in the post to which you replied, but you deny the Truth (John 14:6).

No Christian denies the sayings of Christ, yet you have denied the sayings of Christ.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Hey Kermos, get a load of what I have prepared and in store for you on my new thread. You will have a hay day over there. All this stuff you are bringing up here and much more....check it at..

The proof for the Preincarnation of Yahshua/Jesus is a fools' errand!

see you later then....

 

[Jane_Doe22]

There is a unity between Father and Son (John 17:21-23) which is evident as you well know. That unity pre-existed creation, as scripture attests to. A unity encapsulated also in 1 Cor.8:6. A relationship wherein divinity and deity is shared. This must be so, for if the Son came from any source other than His own Father, then what? If He was from a some demi-god from Kolob, then we would possibly be wanting to be Mormons right? And Jesus would then be called a demi-god, and a Kolobian. But He came from God the Father, sharing the Father's divine attributes, by natural right and inheritance, thus making Him worthy of worship, worthy to be called God...His Father's title and name.

@Brakelite , I’ve not been following this thread lately, but your (rhetorical?) Mormon example is not remotely accurate as to actual LDS Christian beliefs.

 

[Kermos]

i accept "just as" to mean exactly that, there is no need for me to "adulterate" anything. i am not taking the phrase "just as" and teaching others it means "not as" - the exact opposite.
this is the great advantage of not believing the trinity, we do not have to rearrange scripture to make our doctrine work, scripture supports it just fine.



Caleb - Hebrew meaning - faithful. by the trinity logic, only people named Caleb are faithful??



does not say Jesus is Almighty G-D,trins always having to insert and edit scripture, Lord says not to do that, but you guys dont seem to understand that.

i like Rev 1 1 , the Revelation of Jesus given to Him by the Most High. i guess trins teach Jesus gave this revelation to Himself? that makes a lot of sense, about as much sense as Jesus praying to Himself.

arguing with you always makes me think of Platos cave, no matter what you say some people just refuse to come out of that cave.

As recorded in John 17:21-23, Jesus talks of:

• the people of God being one.
• the Word of God and the Father being One.

Christ says "the people of God being one" just as "the Word of God and the Father being One".

Christ says "the people of God being one" are in "the Word of God and the Father being One".

You people's deception is that "just as" really means "to be one with".

Thus you people adulterate the Word of God into your own words of "that they may all be one; to be one with You, Father, are in Me and I in You".

Now, back to your previous threaded post.

The four texts that you presented in your post to me contains "just as" ("just as" and "even as" are equivalents in John 17:21), so every single one of the translations accurately represents the Word of God distinguishing that the people of God are one while also distinguishing that the Word of God and the Father are One being the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Thus says the Word of God "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are One" (John 17:21-22).

The Word of God says that the people of God are one, and the Word of God says that the one people of God are in God.

The Word of God says not that the one people of God are one with the One True God which would have lead to indicating that the one people of God will be God.

In Truth, the Word of God says that the one people of God are in God.

It seems that you are desperately trying to adulterate the Word of God to say that the people of God are God.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Wrangler]

Our children come from us... That makes them human. We originally came from nothing. So no, we aren't God. Jesus came from the Father. Like begets like. Law of nature. Not my law, but the Creator's.

You do realize ‘the Son of God’ is a title. Right? Acts 17:31 informs us that God (in his unitarian nature) selected the man Jesus.

This is not the language of kinship.

This is not the language of self-selection of a deity.

 

[Wrangler]

@Brakelite , I’ve not been following this thread lately, but your (rhetorical?) Mormon example is not remotely accurate as to actual LDS Christian beliefs.

This is yet another example of losing the argument and having to resort to some kind of gratuitous and personal attack of a group (in this case, Mormons).

 

[APAK]

Appeal to Ignorance. You are using what Jesus did NOT say - the absence of evidence as evidence.

“I am” is not an identification of deity nor what God actually said to Moses. That you have to refer to such weak references to violate the Sh’ma, 1C and explicit text that only the Father is God, shows how weak the support is for the man-is-god thesis.

Yes, in John 8:58, Jesus very simply said that he was more important (comes before, as in rank) than Abraham. The local expression and then from Greek in to English makes it sound so awkward and confusing. Staying with the context though works it all out in the end.

And it really ticked off the Pharisees to no end. As their Father was Abraham and Jesus' Father was God....I can see why they wanted him gone..

 

[Rich R]

@Rich R

You demonstrated a staggering level of linguistic errors, omissions, and/or misrepresentations as shown in the following links

You wickedly promote mere humans to being God while you evilly demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #848 in this thread), and you deceptively try to confuse Jesus' special place as Immanuel, God with us (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6).

There is no such thing as a "mere" human. God created man just a little lower than the gods.

Ps 8:4-5,

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.​

Angels = elohim = gods (the translators couldn't stand the truth, so they changed things to agree with their preconceived ideas. Like the trinity.)

You don't understand that there are many gods besides YHWY (hope I spelled it right). That explains Thomas' calling Jesus God.

In any case I think I've been quite forthcoming in my admiration for Jesus. To you it is simply God obeying Himself and believing He'd raise Himself from the dead. Big deal! But for a man, tempted like you and I, to do that is the story of the ages. You either misunderstand me or your are just being disingenuous in your claim that I make Jesus a "mere" man. Or maybe now you've learned there is not such thing as a "mere" mean, let alone Jesus being such. You should read the Bible more and believe Orthodox doctrine less.

moreover

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this thread), so you deny Apostolic testimony.

Learn what a god is to the Hebrews in Jesus' time. You are putting your ideas ahead of those to whom the scriptures were given, i.e. Israel some 2,000years ago.

moreover

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1003 in this thread), so you nullify the Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14) in your heart by exalting your thoughts above God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

So you say.

moreover

You foolishly claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", yet "en" truly means "in", and your foolishness targets your thoughts that Jesus does not mean "one" when Jesus says "one" both in John 10:30 and John 17:21-22 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1213 in this thread), so you are under the delusion that. Jesus is not one with the Father despite Jesus truthfully declaring of the Father and Himself "We are One" (John 17:22). You are fixated on the temporal instead of the eternal.

You sure like the word "foolishness."

Where did I say Jesus and the Father are not one? You're making stuff up. I guess because you have nothing substantive to argue?

moreover

By your writing, your illogic is illuminated, your linguistic foolishness abounds, and you expose your fleshly natural state of being (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1269 in this thread); consequently, (1) you deny the personification references of the Father as well as the Christ in scripture, (2) you deny the true meaning of "one" as shown near the pie example, (3) you deny Jesus' sayings of "We are One" (John 17:22) by adulterating His words with your limiting words from your heart, (4) you deny the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) by imposing your temporal treasure on Jesus, (5) you change the language of Ephesians 1:4, and (6) you deny Jesus is God despite the testimony of scripture indicating that Jesus is God.

Are you mixing me up with someone else maybe? I don't know how else to explain your total mis-characterization of what I've said.

moreover

In a bout of linguistic foolishness, you preach that "I will be" is correct for Exodus 3:14 instead of "I AM" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1280 in this thread); therefore, you convey that your heart's treasure is that God does change in direct contradiction to the Word of God saying "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

Well, I share my "foolishness" with virtually all Hebrew scholars. Why are you so afraid of facts? I didn't invent Hebrew.

moreover

(1)You adulterate the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:6-10 into the word of Rich R "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I change" (2) in order to adulterate the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) into the word of Rich R "I, Jehovah, do not change except I will become for Israel" (3) which you extend to adulterate the Word of God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) into the word of Rich R "I will be who I will be" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1331 in this thread), so you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

Do you deny that God many times decided to end Israel, only to change His mind after Moses interceded? Read the OT more carefully and without preconceived ideas. God changed His mind many many times because the situation changed.

Read the context of Malachi 3:6. God is simply saying He will accomplish His final aim or restoring Israel. I never denied that. In fact, I magnified His greatness by showing you how God is genius enough to accomplish His goal while working with free will people. He's not going to force Israel into anything they don't want. Instead He is able to use His goodness to attract people by their own choice (Rom 2:4). You completely miss that and denigrate God in the process. You make Him into a control freak that forces His will onto mankind.

Your doctrine completely minimizes God's ability to bring about His will with free will humans, as well as the heroism of Jesus in always doing the Father's will despite grave injury to himself. You are the one making him something he is not, i.e. a man who is also a god. How do you not see the Paganism in that? It absolutely wreaks of Paganism!

Jesus was tempted just like you and I in all points (Heb 4:15). Do you feel like God when tempted? I doubt it, so maybe Hebrews 4:15 shouldn't be in the Bible.

In general, humble yourself, ditch tradition, and learn the truth. The Christ in you (Col 1:27) will remain largely dormant until you do that. A sad waste of power.

 

[Rich R]

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Is that supposed to prove Jesus is God? You realize that it was YHWH who said that. How does that say Jesus is YHWH. It actually says quite the opposite. It says YHWH is the only true God. Oh, that's what 1 Cor 8:6 says also. Oh, well...they're just a bunch of words. The important thing is that we go along with tradition. The actual scriptures may or may not agree with tradition, but who cares about that?

I'd say about 99% of Trinity "proof" texts are just like this one in that they actually say noting whatsoever about Jesus being God. At least if one simply reads what's written.

 

[Wrangler]

Our children come from us...

Not an answer to my question.

Trinitarians cannot answer such questions because it reveals their contradictions or double standards.

If Jesus is God because he came from God, then everything is God because everything came from God. The proposition is ridiculous and trinitarians have no where to go but invoke another double standard of duality.

 

[Wrangler]

In any case I think I've been quite forthcoming in my admiration for Jesus.

It is sad that trinitarians equate not accepting Jesus as God as not respecting the Savior of the World properly, as if that is a title of put down.

 

[Rich R]

It is sad that trinitarians equate not accepting Jesus as God as not respecting the Savior of the World properly, as if that is a title of put down.

Yes! It's the Trinitarians that minimize God's logos and the greatness of Jesus in carrying out that plan to perfection.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes! It's the Trinitarians that minimize God's logos and the greatness of Jesus in carrying out that plan to perfection.

If Jesus were God incarnate who merely took on the form of a man and only appeared to die, it has no theological significance at all, for God is all powerful and can do anything. 1 Timothy 2:5 (NLT) There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. Interestingly, the emphasis here is the distinction between 2 beings - God, in his singular, unitarian nature (not 3-in-1) and the man who is leveraged for the purpose of reconciliation - to God. According to this verse, if Jesus were God, we would have no means to reconcile ourselves to God. The theological importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be over-stated!

The penalty of sin is death – real death, fully dead, truly and completely dead – and God could not pay this price for us since he never dies, is eternal and unchanging. Fulfilling this role via substitutionary punishment is why the Messiah was prophesied. Acts 17:31 explicitly states that God raised Jesus from the dead. This side steps the confusing subterfuge trinitarians like to leverage AS IF “the Father” is anyone other than the only true God of Scripture.

 

[tigger 2]

From Post 1280 (and repeated by him at 1440 above) by Kermos above:
All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)
......................................................
From my reply at #1288:

How do the KJV; RSV; NIV; NASB; NRSV; ESV; JB; etc. translate those verses?

"I Will Be"

Genesis 26:3 - Bible Gateway

 

[Keiw]

People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5), so in effect you deliberately deceive.

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a wickedly unreliable source.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Its to bad you wont believe truth. Jesus tells you and you outright refuse to believe him-John 20:17, Rev 3:12