A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler @XFire @APAK

You convey that Jesus is only a man or that He's a lesser god than YHWH God.

You convey that Jesus is the first man born because of Colossians 1:15 and/or Revelation 3:14.

Your confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Paul wrote "The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven" (1 Corinthians 15:47).
  • Adam is labeled "the first man" by the Apostle Paul.
  • By the very definition of Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 15:47, it is impossible for Jesus, referred to as "the second man" by Paul, to be the firstborn of every single human being whether the person is saved or unsaved.
  • Paul's writing establishes limits on the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) and "Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14) - both of which are truly referring to Jesus in relation to the brothers of Jesus.
  • Substantively, Paul declares that Adam was the first man created.
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14), JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT CREATED WHILE JESUS PERFORMED THE CREATIVE ACT.
  • The Apostle John, the same Apostle who penned The Book of Revelation, wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2), SO JESUS WAS WITH GOD, NO MENTION OF CREATED BY GOD, BUT JESUS WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
  • "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void" (Genesis 1:1-2), SO, ACCORDING TO THIS WRITTEN SEQUENCE, FIRST, GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WITH THE SEQUENCE CONCLUDING WITH THE CREATION OF MAN (GENESIS 1:26-31) AND THE FIRST MENTION OF A BIRTH IS CAIN (GENESIS 4:1); THEREFORE, THE "FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION" (COLOSSIANS 1:15) MUST OF NECESSITY BE REFERENCE TO JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE RESURRECTION.
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8), AND PAUL ESTABLISHES THIS CONTEXT IN COLOSSIANS 1:1-14 BEING ABOUT THE INSTITUTION AND GROWTH OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD - THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS.
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the Redeemer among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia) in His glorious Resurrection.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Rich R]

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

You keep wanting to change this verse to: "He is God, the firstborn of all creation." That's not what the verse says.

Why is it so hard to understand what an image is?

Image: An imitation, representation, or similitude of any person,
thing, or act, sculptured, drawn, painted, or otherwise
made perceptible to the sight; a visible presentation; a
copy; a likeness; an effigy; a picture; a semblance.
[1913 Webster]

And when exactly do you think God was born? Seriously, can you give a straight answer to these questions? Don't beat around the bush, just tell me when God was born and why an image of something is the same as the thing itself. I don't think you can or will even try, but you'll just keep repeating this verse as though it proves Jesus is God.

 

[Kermos]

You keep wanting to change this verse to: "He is God, the firstborn of all creation." That's not what the verse says.

Why is it so hard to understand what an image is?

Image: An imitation, representation, or similitude of any person,
thing, or act, sculptured, drawn, painted, or otherwise
made perceptible to the sight; a visible presentation; a
copy; a likeness; an effigy; a picture; a semblance.
[1913 Webster]

And when exactly to do think God was born? Seriously, can you give a straight answer to these questions? Don't beat around the bush, just tell me when God was born and why an image of something is the same as the thing itself. I don't think you can or will even try, but you'll just keep repeating this verse as though it proves Jesus is God.

Your assertion in your first paragraph is a LIE. In the very post to which you replied, I wrote that the context of Colossians 1:15 is about Jesus as truly Man in relation to the children of God.

You foolishly ask the question "And when exactly to do think God was born". In the very post to which you replied, I wrote "the ever living Jesus".

You keep trying to say that Jesus was the first man born based upon Colossians 1:15.

Paul wrote "The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven" (1 Corinthians 15:47).

• Adam is labeled "the first man" by the Apostle Paul.
• By the very definition of Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 15:47, it is impossible for Jesus, referred to as "the second man" by Paul, to be the firstborn of every single human being whether the person is saved or unsaved.
• Paul's writing establishes limits on the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) and "Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14).
• Substantively, Paul declares that Adam was the first man created.

Since the Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13), then Paul calls Jesus everlasting YHWH God for there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

 

[Rich R]

Your assertion in your first paragraph is a LIE. In the very post to which you replied, I wrote that the context of Colossians 1:15 is about Jesus as truly Man in relation to the children of God.

You foolishly ask the question "And when exactly to do think God was born". In the very post to which you replied, I wrote "the ever living Jesus".

You keep trying to say that Jesus was the first man born based upon Colossians 1:15.

Paul wrote "The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven" (1 Corinthians 15:47).

• Adam is labeled "the first man" by the Apostle Paul.
• By the very definition of Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 15:47, it is impossible for Jesus, referred to as "the second man" by Paul, to be the firstborn of every single human being whether the person is saved or unsaved.
• Paul's writing establishes limits on the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) and "Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14).
• Substantively, Paul declares that Adam was the first man created.

Since the Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13), then Paul calls Jesus everlasting YHWH God for there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

If you can get what you can make a coherent story out of a son being his own father, then so be it. That's free will, a wonderful gift from God. Of course it does have consequences when we go against God, but He's a forgiving Father and understands our frames.

 

[Kermos]

If you can get what you can make a coherent story out of a son being his own father, then so be it. That's free will, a wonderful gift from God. Of course it does have consequences when we go against God, but He's a forgiving Father and understands our frames.

A child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;

And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
​

Isaiah 9:6

Rich R, see "Everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9:6 referring to Jesus.

Nonetheless, the Word of God says not that the Son is His own Father, so neither do I.

Rich R, let's get back on point

You keep trying to say that Jesus was the first man born based upon Colossians 1:15.

Paul wrote "The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven" (1 Corinthians 15:47).

• Adam is labeled "the first man" by the Apostle Paul.
• By the very definition of Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 15:47, it is impossible for Jesus, referred to as "the second man" by Paul, to be the firstborn of every single human being whether the person is saved or unsaved.
• Paul's writing establishes limits on the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) and "Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14).
• Substantively, Paul declares that Adam was the first man created.

Since the Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13), then Paul calls Jesus everlasting YHWH God for there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

 

[Aunty Jane]

You convey that Jesus is only a man or that He's a lesser god than YHWH God.

Not true. Jesus was never “only a man”. Nor is he a “lesser god”. There is only one Creator, and that is Yahweh. All intelligent creatures were brought into existence by means of the power of God, (holy spirit) but only one was his “firstborn”. This unique and (symbolically) “firstborn” Son was used as the agency through whom came everything else. As Paul said, creation was made “*through* him and *for* him”....did Yahweh gift creation to himself?

You convey that Jesus is the first man born because of Colossians 1:15 and/or Revelation 3:14.

“The beginning of God’s creation” is a pretty straightforward statement. It means the “first of all creation” not just being born as a human.

As an immortal, there was a time when Yahweh was alone, but not lonely. Creating a Son was an act of love on his part....someone to share God’s most dominant quality. The fact that holy spirit was always the power that Yahweh possessed, explains why this power was used first in the spiritual realm, creating a “firstborn” son whom God would lovingly educate for unknown eons of time, before bringing other creation into existence by means of him.

Your confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

It’s not all those other passages that prove your beliefs, but rather how you choose to interpret them.
You can make them say what they never meant by reading into the badly translated words, something you want to see. The word “theos” is a classic example of that problem. Calling Jesus “theos” in John 1:1 is not calling him Yahweh. It is indicating his divine appointment as man’s savior. The word does not only mean ‘one who is worshipped’.
Jesus came from heaven, sent by his Father to rescue the human race, plunged into sin and death through no fault on their part. (John 17:3) If you refuse to do research to inform yourself, then how will you ever learn the truth. Truth triumphs over error unless it is presented as propaganda. The devil thrives on propaganda and so do his minions.

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).

Who says that it is ‘we’ who are in error? Who was it that God “foreknew” that would be like his “firstborn” son, who was to have “many brothers”. The fact that Jesus is a “brother” to these ones means that he is not their Father.....you can’t be a father to your own brothers as @Rich R has mentioned to you already. Are you seeing how ridiculous it is to suggest such a thing?

Also the number of those “brothers” was ‘foreknown’.....it was the “body” of these “brothers” of Christ who were foreordained, but not the individuals who would make up that number. That means that no human was predestined to be among them. These were chosen, based on their faith and obedience to to the teachings of God’s son. If they were foreordained then free will does not exist.
If free will does not exist then God meant for Adam and his wife to sin.....and he intended that the devil would tempt his children and all that transpired in Eden and the repercussions, were God’s fault.

Nothing in what you present makes logical or scriptural sense, and we know where our sense of logic comes from....
You keep repeating the same things over and over as if somehow that will make it less erroneous.

Tell me that well known definition of insanity.......We heard you the first time....we disagree....OK?

 

[Kermos]

Not true. Jesus was never “only a man”. Nor is he a “lesser god”.

Not according to you for you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' regarding John 1:1 as recorded in post #216 in this thread, so you label Jesus a lesser god (or "a god") of whom you place before YHWH God to claim your own salvation, yet

• there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4),
• there is no other god (Isaiah 45:5), and
• the Word of God says "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

You disbelieve the Word of God.

There is only one Creator, and that is Yahweh. All intelligent creatures were brought into existence by means of the power of God, (holy spirit) but only one was his “firstborn”. This unique and (symbolically) “firstborn” Son was used as the agency through whom came everything else. As Paul said, creation was made “*through* him and *for* him”....did Yahweh gift creation to himself?


“The beginning of God’s creation” is a pretty straightforward statement. It means the “first of all creation” not just being born as a human.

As an immortal, there was a time when Yahweh was alone, but not lonely. Creating a Son was an act of love on his part....someone to share God’s most dominant quality. The fact that holy spirit was always the power that Yahweh possessed, explains why this power was used first in the spiritual realm, creating a “firstborn” son whom God would lovingly educate for unknown eons of time, before bringing other creation into existence by means of him.


It’s not all those other passages that prove your beliefs, but rather how you choose to interpret them.
You can make them say what they never meant by reading into the badly translated words, something you want to see. The word “theos” is a classic example of that problem. Calling Jesus “theos” in John 1:1 is not calling him Yahweh. It is indicating his divine appointment as man’s savior. The word does not only mean ‘one who is worshipped’.
Jesus came from heaven, sent by his Father to rescue the human race, plunged into sin and death through no fault on their part. (John 17:3) If you refuse to do research to inform yourself, then how will you ever learn the truth. Truth triumphs over error unless it is presented as propaganda. The devil thrives on propaganda and so do his minions.


Who says that it is ‘we’ who are in error? Who was it that God “foreknew” that would be like his “firstborn” son, who was to have “many brothers”. The fact that Jesus is a “brother” to these ones means that he is not their Father.....you can’t be a father to your own brothers as @Rich R has mentioned to you already. Are you seeing how ridiculous it is to suggest such a thing?

Also the number of those “brothers” was ‘foreknown’.....it was the “body” of these “brothers” of Christ who were foreordained, but not the individuals who would make up that number. That means that no human was predestined to be among them. These were chosen, based on their faith and obedience to to the teachings of God’s son. If they were foreordained then free will does not exist.
If free will does not exist then God meant for Adam and his wife to sin.....and he intended that the devil would tempt his children and all that transpired in Eden and the repercussions, were God’s fault.

Nothing in what you present makes logical or scriptural sense, and we know where our sense of logic comes from....
You keep repeating the same things over and over as if somehow that will make it less erroneous.

Tell me that well known definition of insanity.......We heard you the first time....we disagree....OK?

You wrote 'This unique and (symbolically) “firstborn” Son'.

Aunty Jane, you just disassociated Jesus from being the first born person of every person everywhere whether saved or unsaved.

In effect, you just wrote that "the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) refers to Jesus in a capacity of NOT being the firstborn of all created things.

Jesus is uncreated, and this according to Paul in Colossians 1:15.

All of your defense is shattered as the delusion of destruction that it is.

You really have a terrible time keeping your lies orderly, oh, but wait, as a liar, you are in a state confusion, so your heart is disorderly, and you lust to do the desire of your father the devil who is well versed in confusion (John 8:44).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

And, the Truth is "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24) saysJesus, yet you do not believe that Jesus is I AM before Abraham was born!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Keiw]

Then your saying is another LIE because the word "Jehovah" is a man-made word intentionally developed to be separate from God's Holy Name of YHWH.

Jehovah is not an English translation for God's Holy Name of יהוה in Hebrew.

YHWH is an English translation for God's Holy Name of יהוה in Hebrew.

The Masoretic Texts of post seventh century to pre fourteenth century A.D. contain YHWH mixed with "Adonai" except the Masoretes exchanged an E for the A that starts the word Adonai then they took every other vowel starting with the first A resulting in the insertion of "eoa" into God’s Holy Name. See that "eoa" is every other letter in the word Jehovah.

The Masoretes devised the system with the intent to warn people of various languages not to use God's Holy Name of יהוה in vain.

The Masoretes method to avoid enunciating God's Holy Name of יהוה results in the man-made word "Jehovah".

You might even have seen how some people write G-d instead of God.

Essentially, the Masoretes intentionally created a code separated by an order of magnitude from God's Holy Name of יהוה.

Some English translators took the Masoretic man-made devised code into English as Jehovah.

Your New World Translation contains Jehovah after Jehovah after Jehovah, and not a single occurrence of Jehovah in the NWT is God's Holy Name!

Your bible is corrupt, and you are a deceiver who rejects the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is everlasting God for the Word of God says that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

You say its man made by listening to blind guides-- God has always made his name known.

 

[Kermos]

You say its man made by listening to blind guides-- God has always made his name known.

You are such a hypocrite because you accuse others of having corrupt Bibles because the Bibles use LORD as a placeholder for God's Holy Name of יהוה, yet your bible uses the man-made word "Jehovah" intentionally developed NOT to be God's Holy Name of יהוה.

Here is the historical and linguistic and Spiritual explanation.

Jehovah is not an English translation for God's Holy Name of יהוה in Hebrew.

YHWH is an English translation for God's Holy Name of יהוה in Hebrew.

The Masoretic Texts of post seventh century to pre fourteenth century A.D. contain YHWH mixed with "Adonai" except the Masoretes exchanged an E for the A that starts the word Adonai then they took every other vowel starting with the first A resulting in the insertion of "eoa" into God’s Holy Name. See that "eoa" is every other letter in the word Jehovah.

The Masoretes devised the system with the intent to warn people of various languages not to use God's Holy Name of יהוה in vain.

The Masoretes method to avoid enunciating God's Holy Name of יהוה results in the man-made word "Jehovah".

You might even have seen how some people write G-d instead of God.

Essentially, the Masoretes intentionally created a code separated by an order of magnitude from God's Holy Name of יהוה.

Some English translators took the Masoretic man-made devised code into English as Jehovah.

Your New World Translation contains Jehovah after Jehovah after Jehovah, and not a single occurrence of Jehovah in the NWT is God's Holy Name!

The word "Jehovah" is a man-made word intentionally developed to be separate from God's Holy Name of YHWH, and you claim other Bibles are corrupt.

According to your own measure (Matthew 7:2), your own bible is corrupt, and you are a deceiver who rejects the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is everlasting God for the Word of God says that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Aunty Jane]

Not according to you for you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' regarding John 1:1 as recorded in post #216 in this thread, so you label Jesus a lesser god (or "a god") of whom you place before YHWH God to claim your own salvation, yet

• there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4),
• there is no other god (Isaiah 45:5), and
• the Word of God says "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

You disbelieve the Word of God.

No, that is not true because as you said....
*"there is One True God" but his name is not Jesus.

*There is no other God but YHWH....YHWH is not Jesus.

* Exodus 20:3 says there is to be "no other God" but YHWH....again his name is not Jesus.

So you fail again on all three counts.

You wrote 'This unique and (symbolically) “firstborn” Son'.

Aunty Jane, you just disassociated Jesus from being the first born person of every person everywhere whether saved or unsaved.

That is nonsense. Jesus is most certainly the "firstborn", "only begotten" son of God.
Please show me where Jesus ever claimed to be YHWH....?

In effect, you just wrote that "the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) refers to Jesus in a capacity of NOT being the firstborn of all created things.

I believe that your logic is very faulty. If the pre-human Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation", then no other creation existed before him. The one entity who did exist before him was his Father (whom he called "the only true God" in John 17:3 without including himself).....a father cannot be his own son, nor can a son be his own father....the whole idea is nonsensical.
These are the terms used by YHWH and Jesus themselves....Father and son...its not rocket science surely...?

Jesus is uncreated, and this according to Paul in Colossians 1:15.

That is how you prefer to understand that verse, but what does the rest of that passage say?
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:15-17 NASB)
How is the pre-human Jesus "before all things"...? because he was the agency "through" whom all creation was fashioned. He existed before all of it, being the very first creation of his Father as Jesus himself admitted in Revelation 3:14...
"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". (KJV)
How can he be the "beginning of creation" if he is not created?

What does the Bible say elsewhere? Is it all "the word of God"? Does God's word contradict itself?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6....
"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."
The apostles weren't in any doubt.

All of your defense is shattered as the delusion of destruction that it is.

Well, if one of us is delusional, I guess we will both find out soon enough....what if its you?

You really have a terrible time keeping your lies orderly, oh, but wait, as a liar, you are in a state confusion, so your heart is disorderly, and you lust to do the desire of your father the devil who is well versed in confusion (John 8:44).

Really?

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

The Jewish Tanakh tells me differently....its their scripture ya know.....

Exodus 3:14-15...
"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
God's name never was "I AM".

"Ehyeh" is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Hebrew verb ha·wahʹ which is derived from "hayah" which means "to be". Not "I AM".

And, the Truth is "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24) says Jesus, yet you do not believe that Jesus is I AM before Abraham was born!

LOL.....it says "unless you believe that I am he"....meaning the Messiah. You really need to do some serious Bible study.
Have you ever read the context of the verse you quoted...?

"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me. . . . Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come. . . . And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.” (NASB)
This makes the trinity an incoherent nonsense.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Its all in the way you want to read it....Jesus was "sent from God"....but not once did he ever say that he WAS God.

How was God "with" his people Israel before Messiah came to earth?

Revelation 21:2-4....KJ21....
"And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”

How is God "with" men?....the same way that he was "with" his nation of Israel....through his representatives...his divinely appointed leaders and prophets. Jesus was the "prophet like Moses" who was prophesied to come.
God said to Moses....."I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him."
Jesus came from God...but never did he say he was God....neither did any of the apostles.

 

[Kermos]

No, that is not true because as you said....
*"there is One True God" but his name is not Jesus.

*There is no other God but YHWH....YHWH is not Jesus.

* Exodus 20:3 says there is to be "no other God" but YHWH....again his name is not Jesus.

So you fail again on all three counts.


That is nonsense. Jesus is most certainly the "firstborn", "only begotten" son of God.
Please show me where Jesus ever claimed to be YHWH....?


I believe that your logic is very faulty. If the pre-human Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation", then no other creation existed before him. The one entity who did exist before him was his Father (whom he called "the only true God" in John 17:3 without including himself).....a father cannot be his own son, nor can a son be his own father....the whole idea is nonsensical.
These are the terms used by YHWH and Jesus themselves....Father and son...its not rocket science surely...?


That is how you prefer to understand that verse, but what does the rest of that passage say?
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:15-17 NASB)
How is the pre-human Jesus "before all things"...? because he was the agency "through" whom all creation was fashioned. He existed before all of it, being the very first creation of his Father as Jesus himself admitted in Revelation 3:14...
"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". (KJV)
How can he be the "beginning of creation" if he is not created?

What does the Bible say elsewhere? Is it all "the word of God"? Does God's word contradict itself?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6....
"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."
The apostles weren't in any doubt.


Well, if one of us is delusional, I guess we will both find out soon enough....what if its you?


Really?


The Jewish Tanakh tells me differently....its their scripture ya know.....

Exodus 3:14-15...
"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
God's name never was "I AM".

"Ehyeh" is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Hebrew verb ha·wahʹ which is derived from "hayah" which means "to be". Not "I AM".


LOL.....it says "unless you believe that I am he"....meaning the Messiah. You really need to do some serious Bible study.
Have you ever read the context of the verse you quoted...?

"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me. . . . Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come. . . . And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.” (NASB)
This makes the trinity an incoherent nonsense.


Its all in the way you want to read it....Jesus was "sent from God"....but not once did he ever say that he WAS God.

How was God "with" his people Israel before Messiah came to earth?

Revelation 21:2-4....KJ21....
"And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”

How is God "with" men?....the same way that he was "with" his nation of Israel....through his representatives...his divinely appointed leaders and prophets. Jesus was the "prophet like Moses" who was prophesied to come.
God said to Moses....."I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him."
Jesus came from God...but never did he say he was God....neither did any of the apostles.

Actually, ACCORDING TO YOUR WRITING OF 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' regarding John 1:1 as recorded in post #216 in this thread, so Aunty Jane you label Jesus a lesser god - your specific words of "a god" - of whom you place before YHWH God to claim your own salvation, yet

• there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4),
• there is no other god (Isaiah 45:5), and
• the Word of God says "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

You disbelieve the Word of God.

Again, ACCORDING TO YOUR WRITING OF 'This unique and (symbolically) “firstborn” Son' as recorded in post #1707 in this thread, so Aunty Jane you just disassociated Jesus from being the first born person of every person everywhere whether saved or unsaved.

In effect, you just wrote that "the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) refers to Jesus in a capacity of NOT being the firstborn of all created things.

Colossians 1:15 does not say that 'pre-human Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation"' as your heart adulterates the Apostle Paul's writing in such a way that it's your writing that is not Apostolic testimony.

Jesus is uncreated, and this according to Paul in Colossians 1:15.

All of your defense is shattered as the delusion of destruction that it is.

You really have a terrible time keeping your lies orderly, oh, but wait, as a liar, you are in a state confusion, so your heart is disorderly, and you lust to do the desire of your father the devil who is well versed in confusion (John 8:44).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Aunty Jane]

Actually, ACCORDING TO YOUR WRITING OF 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' regarding John 1:1 as recorded in post #216 in this thread, so Aunty Jane you label Jesus a lesser god - your specific words of "a god" - of whom you place before YHWH God to claim your own salvation, yet

• there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4),
• there is no other god (Isaiah 45:5), and
• the Word of God says "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

You disbelieve the Word of God.

Again, ACCORDING TO YOUR WRITING OF 'This unique and (symbolically) “firstborn” Son' as recorded in post #1707 in this thread, so Aunty Jane you just disassociated Jesus from being the first born person of every person everywhere whether saved or unsaved.

In effect, you just wrote that "the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) refers to Jesus in a capacity of NOT being the firstborn of all created things.

Colossians 1:15 does not say that 'pre-human Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation"' as your heart adulterates the Apostle Paul's writing in such a way that it's your writing that is not Apostolic testimony.

Jesus is uncreated, and this according to Paul in Colossians 1:15.

All of your defense is shattered as the delusion of destruction that it is.

You really have a terrible time keeping your lies orderly, oh, but wait, as a liar, you are in a state confusion, so your heart is disorderly, and you lust to do the desire of your father the devil who is well versed in confusion (John 8:44).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

And again, we hear the same tired old rubbish served up time and again, never addressing anything that is said to you....

Believe whatever you wish...call people names like four year old.....it doesn't make what you say any truer than when you said it all the first time.

All you do is regurgitate the same old party line.....none of it holds water.

I have addressed all your points....so give it a rest already....

All

covered here.... A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

 

[Kermos]

No, that is not true because as you said....
*"there is One True God" but his name is not Jesus.

*There is no other God but YHWH....YHWH is not Jesus.

* Exodus 20:3 says there is to be "no other God" but YHWH....again his name is not Jesus.

So you fail again on all three counts.


That is nonsense. Jesus is most certainly the "firstborn", "only begotten" son of God.
Please show me where Jesus ever claimed to be YHWH....?


I believe that your logic is very faulty. If the pre-human Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation", then no other creation existed before him. The one entity who did exist before him was his Father (whom he called "the only true God" in John 17:3 without including himself).....a father cannot be his own son, nor can a son be his own father....the whole idea is nonsensical.
These are the terms used by YHWH and Jesus themselves....Father and son...its not rocket science surely...?


That is how you prefer to understand that verse, but what does the rest of that passage say?
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:15-17 NASB)
How is the pre-human Jesus "before all things"...? because he was the agency "through" whom all creation was fashioned. He existed before all of it, being the very first creation of his Father as Jesus himself admitted in Revelation 3:14...
"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". (KJV)
How can he be the "beginning of creation" if he is not created?

What does the Bible say elsewhere? Is it all "the word of God"? Does God's word contradict itself?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6....
"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."
The apostles weren't in any doubt.


Well, if one of us is delusional, I guess we will both find out soon enough....what if its you?


Really?


The Jewish Tanakh tells me differently....its their scripture ya know.....

Exodus 3:14-15...
"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
God's name never was "I AM".

"Ehyeh" is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Hebrew verb ha·wahʹ which is derived from "hayah" which means "to be". Not "I AM".


LOL.....it says "unless you believe that I am he"....meaning the Messiah. You really need to do some serious Bible study.
Have you ever read the context of the verse you quoted...?

"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me. . . . Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come. . . . And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.” (NASB)
This makes the trinity an incoherent nonsense.


Its all in the way you want to read it....Jesus was "sent from God"....but not once did he ever say that he WAS God.

How was God "with" his people Israel before Messiah came to earth?

Revelation 21:2-4....KJ21....
"And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”

How is God "with" men?....the same way that he was "with" his nation of Israel....through his representatives...his divinely appointed leaders and prophets. Jesus was the "prophet like Moses" who was prophesied to come.
God said to Moses....."I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him."
Jesus came from God...but never did he say he was God....neither did any of the apostles.

You wrote:

"Ehyeh" is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Hebrew verb ha·wahʹ which is derived from "hayah" which means "to be". Not "I AM".
​

The verb "to be" is an imperfect verb in the singular first person within the Exodus 3:14-15 passage, and imperfect verbs convey an incomplete action in grammar; in other words, an action that must occur within the present with potential past and/or future application in conjunction with the present.

The verb "to be" present tense is the word "am".

The word "I" satisfies the singular first person grammatical requirement of "to be" in the Exodus 3:14-15 passage.

Continuing according to the definition you provided of the Hebrew word "ehyeh" being the verb "to be", then the word "I AM" is the proper translation of "ehyeh" in Exodus 3:14-15.

Your delusional thoughts deceive you, not the TaNaKh. The following illuminates where Jesus calls himself "I AM" thus YHWH God.

"Ehyeh" indicates YHWH being God all the time; in other words, eyheh means YHWH God is I AM.

The Truth (John 14:6) is YHWH the Most High refers to God as "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5). The Word of God provides no exception for Jesus' existence prior to Abraham.

You do not receive Jesus Christ's sayings of "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so you reject Jesus.

The exclusive King says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)

The One and Only Savior says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24), yet you do not believe that Jesus is I AM before Abraham was without exception!

 

[Kermos]

No, that is not true because as you said....
*"there is One True God" but his name is not Jesus.

*There is no other God but YHWH....YHWH is not Jesus.

* Exodus 20:3 says there is to be "no other God" but YHWH....again his name is not Jesus.

So you fail again on all three counts.


That is nonsense. Jesus is most certainly the "firstborn", "only begotten" son of God.
Please show me where Jesus ever claimed to be YHWH....?


I believe that your logic is very faulty. If the pre-human Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation", then no other creation existed before him. The one entity who did exist before him was his Father (whom he called "the only true God" in John 17:3 without including himself).....a father cannot be his own son, nor can a son be his own father....the whole idea is nonsensical.
These are the terms used by YHWH and Jesus themselves....Father and son...its not rocket science surely...?


That is how you prefer to understand that verse, but what does the rest of that passage say?
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:15-17 NASB)
How is the pre-human Jesus "before all things"...? because he was the agency "through" whom all creation was fashioned. He existed before all of it, being the very first creation of his Father as Jesus himself admitted in Revelation 3:14...
"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". (KJV)
How can he be the "beginning of creation" if he is not created?

What does the Bible say elsewhere? Is it all "the word of God"? Does God's word contradict itself?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6....
"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."
The apostles weren't in any doubt.


Well, if one of us is delusional, I guess we will both find out soon enough....what if its you?


Really?


The Jewish Tanakh tells me differently....its their scripture ya know.....

Exodus 3:14-15...
"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
God's name never was "I AM".

"Ehyeh" is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Hebrew verb ha·wahʹ which is derived from "hayah" which means "to be". Not "I AM".


LOL.....it says "unless you believe that I am he"....meaning the Messiah. You really need to do some serious Bible study.
Have you ever read the context of the verse you quoted...?

"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me. . . . Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come. . . . And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.” (NASB)
This makes the trinity an incoherent nonsense.


Its all in the way you want to read it....Jesus was "sent from God"....but not once did he ever say that he WAS God.

How was God "with" his people Israel before Messiah came to earth?

Revelation 21:2-4....KJ21....
"And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”

How is God "with" men?....the same way that he was "with" his nation of Israel....through his representatives...his divinely appointed leaders and prophets. Jesus was the "prophet like Moses" who was prophesied to come.
God said to Moses....."I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him."
Jesus came from God...but never did he say he was God....neither did any of the apostles.

You wrote regarding Jesus "never did he say he was God....neither did any of the apostles" in your closing paragraph.

Jesus being God is consistent Apostolic testimony.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Apostle Jesus proclaims the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus for the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

You are a LIAR Aunty Jane because the opposite of your thoughts is true about Jesus "never did he say he was God....neither did any of the apostles".

 

[Kermos]

No, that is not true because as you said....
*"there is One True God" but his name is not Jesus.

*There is no other God but YHWH....YHWH is not Jesus.

* Exodus 20:3 says there is to be "no other God" but YHWH....again his name is not Jesus.

So you fail again on all three counts.


That is nonsense. Jesus is most certainly the "firstborn", "only begotten" son of God.
Please show me where Jesus ever claimed to be YHWH....?


I believe that your logic is very faulty. If the pre-human Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation", then no other creation existed before him. The one entity who did exist before him was his Father (whom he called "the only true God" in John 17:3 without including himself).....a father cannot be his own son, nor can a son be his own father....the whole idea is nonsensical.
These are the terms used by YHWH and Jesus themselves....Father and son...its not rocket science surely...?


That is how you prefer to understand that verse, but what does the rest of that passage say?
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:15-17 NASB)
How is the pre-human Jesus "before all things"...? because he was the agency "through" whom all creation was fashioned. He existed before all of it, being the very first creation of his Father as Jesus himself admitted in Revelation 3:14...
"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". (KJV)
How can he be the "beginning of creation" if he is not created?

What does the Bible say elsewhere? Is it all "the word of God"? Does God's word contradict itself?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6....
"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."
The apostles weren't in any doubt.


Well, if one of us is delusional, I guess we will both find out soon enough....what if its you?


Really?


The Jewish Tanakh tells me differently....its their scripture ya know.....

Exodus 3:14-15...
"God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:


15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
God's name never was "I AM".

"Ehyeh" is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Hebrew verb ha·wahʹ which is derived from "hayah" which means "to be". Not "I AM".


LOL.....it says "unless you believe that I am he"....meaning the Messiah. You really need to do some serious Bible study.
Have you ever read the context of the verse you quoted...?

"Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me. . . . Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come. . . . And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.” 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.” (NASB)
This makes the trinity an incoherent nonsense.


Its all in the way you want to read it....Jesus was "sent from God"....but not once did he ever say that he WAS God.

How was God "with" his people Israel before Messiah came to earth?

Revelation 21:2-4....KJ21....
"And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”

How is God "with" men?....the same way that he was "with" his nation of Israel....through his representatives...his divinely appointed leaders and prophets. Jesus was the "prophet like Moses" who was prophesied to come.
God said to Moses....."I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him."
Jesus came from God...but never did he say he was God....neither did any of the apostles.

You convey that there are many gods in your post.

Paul wrote "Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him" (1 Corinthians 8:4-6).

Paul wrote "there is no such thing as an idol in the world" in verse 4, yet people have idols.

Paul establishes that he is being illustrative with "no such thing as an idol" because people have many false gods and masters (lords) in the world (verse 5).

Paul utilized rhetoric when describing idols, "many gods", and "many lords"; on the other hand, Paul wrote in absolute terms when describing the One True God.

In verse 4 and verse 6, Paul establishes there is One God, so his "as indeed there are many gods and many lords" (verse 5) cannot be his endorsement of the existence of true gods in addition to his declared One God in verse 4 and 6.

Paul encapsulated that the "many gods" are false gods.

You have at least two gods because you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' regarding John 1:1 as recorded in post #216 in this thread, so you label Jesus a lesser god (or "a god") of whom you place before YHWH God to claim your own salvation, yet

• there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6),
• there is no other god (Isaiah 45:5), and
• the Word of God says "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

Your interpretation of John 1:1 places you in sin regarding Exodus 20:3.

You wickedly tried to deceive me, Aunty Jane, into thinking there are many gods, but the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) is my protection!

 

[tigger 2]

Actually, ACCORDING TO YOUR WRITING OF 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' regarding John 1:1 as recorded in post #216 in this thread, so Aunty Jane you label Jesus a lesser god - your specific words of "a god" - of whom you place before YHWH God to claim your own salvation, yet

• there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4),
• there is no other god (Isaiah 45:5), and
• the Word of God says "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

....

Isaiah 45:5
KJV
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
NASB
I am the Lord, and there is no one else; There is no God except Me. I will arm you, though you have not known Me,
NIV
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

Some of the trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;

5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; and p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; and Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;

11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;

14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;

15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);

16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
(John 10:34-36);

18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Deut. 10:17; Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.

29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.

30. C. J. Ellicott, John 10:34, Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers.

(Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV.)

And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/“a god” about the same time the NT was written.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen (see DEF note #1) and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus (p. 9, DEF); the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.” And, as we saw above, many highly respected NT scholars of this century agree.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@tigger 2 Apparently you can't discuss anything with someone who has their fingers in their ears, whistlin' Dixie.........

We don't post for the benefit of those who vehemently oppose us, but for those who read these exchanges who may be forming their own opinions about this most important doctrine....we all need to take a clear position on this. Its a game changer....

 

[Kermos]

Isaiah 45:5
KJV
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
NASB
I am the Lord, and there is no one else; There is no God except Me. I will arm you, though you have not known Me,
NIV
I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

Some of the trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;

5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; and p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; and Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;

11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;

14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;

15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);

16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
(John 10:34-36);

18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Deut. 10:17; Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.

29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.

30. C. J. Ellicott, John 10:34, Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers.

(Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV.)

And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/“a god” about the same time the NT was written.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen (see DEF note #1) and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus (p. 9, DEF); the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.” And, as we saw above, many highly respected NT scholars of this century agree.

Scripture matters, but you appeal to man in order to wickedly overturn the Word of God.

The Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14) says "I am YHWH, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

The Apostle Paul is in accord with the Word of God for Paul wrote "Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him" (1 Corinthians 8:4-6).

Paul wrote "there is no such thing as an idol in the world" in verse 4, yet people have idols.

Paul establishes that he is being illustrative with "no such thing as an idol" because people have many false gods and masters (lords) in the world (verse 5).

Paul utilized rhetoric when describing idols, "many gods", and "many lords"; on the other hand, Paul wrote in absolute terms when describing the One True God.

In verse 4 and verse 6, Paul establishes there is One God, so his "as indeed there are many gods and many lords" (verse 5) cannot be his endorsement of the existence of true gods in addition to his declared One God in verse 4 and 6.

Paul encapsulated that the "many gods" are false gods.

The word of tigger 2 is "I am Jehovah, and there are others; besides Me there are Gods" (your heart's adulterated version based on your post).

You do not believe in the Word of God because your heart's version is not the Word of God.

 

[Kermos]

@tigger 2

Let's look at what your writings reveal about your heart's treasure.

You wickedly call Jesus a liar when your heart preaches that Jesus did not raise Jesus from the dead (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1627 in this thread), yet Jesus truly says Jesus raised Jesus from the dead (John 2:19-22).

additionally

Your contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God did not exist but will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:14) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #644 in this thread); in other words, you think that YHWH God had to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

additionally

You claim God's Wisdom was created by YHWH God who lacked Wisdom according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #752 in this thread), so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.

additionally

You wickedly add your words directly into the words of the Apostle Thomas recorded in John 20:28 - an evil crime by itself (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #843 in this thread), yet in so doing, you plunge even further into your evil deception by you subtracting that which the Apostle John wrote about the dialog between Jesus and Thomas in John 20:26-29.

additionally


You wickedly separate "God" from Jesus" in Titus 2:13 by breaking Greek grammar rules (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1478 in this thread), but Paul did write that Jesus is "the great God" in the passage "awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

additionally

You wickedly preach that because others are not "God with us" then that means that Jesus is not God with us (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1677 in this thread), but the Apostle Matthew profoundly proclaims that Jesus is God with us.

then later


You expose your heart's adulteration of Isaiah 45:5 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1718 in this thread) where you convey "I am Jehovah, and there are others; besides Me there are Gods".

additionally

In your heart, John 1:1 reads "the Word was a god" resulting in Jesus being a separate god from YHWH God thus your "a god" is before YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1219 in this thread); therefore, YOU are in sin of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so you do not know Who Jesus is.

Your heart's writing reveals that you are vacant of the Truth (John 14:6).

 

[Kermos]

And again, we hear the same tired old rubbish served up time and again, never addressing anything that is said to you....
Believe whatever you wish...call people names like four year old.....it doesn't make what you say any truer than when you said it all the first time.

All you do is regurgitate the same old party line.....none of it holds water.

I have addressed all your points....so give it a rest already....

All covered here.... A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

@Aunty Jane

The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

You fail to understand the Truth (John 14:6), linguistics, logic, and context surrounding the Greek word "logos" (word) in the Word of God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1624 in this thread)

as well as

You take Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread); in other words; you can be that Paul wrote that Jesus is the first created thing.

then later

You admit that "the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) refers to Jesus in a capacity of NOT being the firstborn of all created things (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1707 in this thread), and you show your utter confusion about you labeling Jesus "a god".

as well as

You impose your evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

then later

You admit that "ehyeh" an imperfect verb in Exodus 3:14 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1713 in this thread), and an imperfect verb must include the present, that is, a current perspective, so "I AM" is the proper translation.

as well as

You deliberately try to deceive about John 1:18 then you extend that deception toward John 1:1 in your vain claim that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #815 in this thread)

as well as

You posted the Greek source word's definition of "beginning" in Revelation 3:14 as "ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." - no where in the definition is "created" - but truly Jesus is the commencement of all the Resurrection as God had me convey to you, and commencement is in the definition (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #820 in this thread)

as well as

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this thread)

as well as

You serve your father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

as well as

You wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' regarding John 1:1 as recorded in post #216 in this thread, so you label Jesus a lesser god (or "a god") of whom you place before YHWH God to claim your own salvation, yet

• there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4),
• there is no other god (Isaiah 45:5), and
• the Word of God says "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

then later

You convey that there are many gods based on your evil thoughts about 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 as recorded in post #1715 in this thread, so openly divulge that YOU HAVE AT LEAST TWO GODS WHILE CONSIDERING JOHN 1:1.

You are a dangerously unreliable source.