A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird

Let's examine the Apostle John's words "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1, in Greek "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος").

POINT 1: significance of "the God, and God" in Greek.

Of the three clauses in John 1:1, the transition between the 2nd and 3rd clause is "τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς" which is word-for-word English as "the God, and God".

In this passage we have the word "God" (θεόν) preceeded by the definite article "the" (τὸν) with the same word "God" (θεόν) followed by the conjunction "and" (καὶ) in turn followed by the word "God" (θεὸς) in anathrous (no definite article), essentially, "τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς" which is word-for-word English as "the God, and God".

The sequence employed by John is significant because John reinforces with intensity and amplification the usage of the word "God" with John's repetition of the word "God".

It is well established that the Jews repeat things to intensify, amplify, and reinforce a point being made.

The Apostle wonderfully binds the word "God" (θεόν) and the word "God" (θεὸς) in a harmony of One - the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) which includes the person of the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14).

John clearly means the One True God, the God Most High, YHWH God (Deuteronomy 6:4), for both instances of "God" in John 1:1 because John uses the word "God" in tandem in the verse.

In Truth (John 14:6), John uses both occurrences of "God" in John 1:1 as equivalent terms.

This means that the Apostle John is calling the Word (the Word is Jesus, John 1:1, John 1:14) "God"!

POINT 2: John confesses One True God.

John knew of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3); therefore, John referred to Jesus as YHWH God (θεὸς) with "the Word was God" in John 1:1 because John would not violate the commandment.

John has no gods before YHWH God, that is, Jesus is YHWH God according to the words of the Apostle John.

John knew that God is One (Deuteronomy 6:4), and John made it clear that Jesus is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) in John 1:1.

This means that the Apostle John confesses Jesus, the Word of God, is everlasting "God"!

POINT 3: another anathrous occurrence of the word "God" (Θεὸν) in John 1.

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him" (John 1:18, in Greek "Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο").

Recall, anathrous means a noun without an article, such as, in English, "the" for a definite article or "a" for an indefinite article.

The first occurrence of "God" (Θεὸν) in John 1:18 refers to YHWH God, yet this word "God" (Θεὸν) is anathrous, that is, there is no article, in like manner to there is no article for the word "God" (θεὸς) with "the Word was God" in John 1:1.

A Greek language semantic similarity exists between John 1:1 and the Septuagint's Nahum 1:2 in that each of these verses employ an anathrous Θεὸς (God) noun. Nahum 1:2 in the Septuagint contains an anathrous Θεὸς (God) referring to the One True God, YHWH. Here is the Greek "Θεὸς ζηλωτὴς καὶ ἐκδικῶν κύριος, ἐκδικῶν κύριος µετὰ θυµοῦ ἐκδικῶν κύριος τοὺς ὑπεναντίους αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐξαίρων αὐτὸς τοὺς ἐχθροὺς αὐτοῦ" (Nahum 1:2) for which the Septuagint translated to English is "God is jealous, and Lord is punishing; Lord is punishing with rage; Lord is punishing his adversaries, and lifting away himself of his enemies" (Nahum 1:2) - clearly Θεὸς (God) refers to the One True God, YHWH God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Behold, Θεὸς (God) in Nahum 1:2 is the same word as θεὸς (God) in John 1:1!

Truly, the anathrous word "God" (Θεὸν/θεὸς) in John 1:18 and John 1:1 refers to YHWH God.

This means that the Apostle John proclaims the Word of God integrally is YHWH God!!!

CONCLUSION 1 (relates to POINT 1 above):

Mere human understanding cannot understand the harmony of the word "God" (θεόν) and the word "God" (θεὸς) in John 1:1, so the hearts of unregenerate souls tear the Word of God down from Deity into a mere man; therefore, the fleshly souls persist in a state of damnation.

The Holy Spirit reveals the glorious harmony recorded in John 1:1 which declares Jesus is the One True God!

CONCLUSION 2 (relates to POINT 2 above):

John is not going to refer Jesus as God resulting in two gods.

You subtract the fullness of "God" (θεὸς) in John 1:1; therefore, you have more than one God because you say that John 1:1 contains "the Word was a god".

Since your heart contends that Jesus is "a god", then you have more than one god which places you in violation of "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

According to your heart's treasure, you claim to have YHWH God + Jesus a god = two gods.

CONCLUSION 3 (relates to POINT 3 above):

The anathrous Greek word for "God" translates to meaning YHWH God elsewhere besides John 1:1 in the New Testament, for example the first occurrence of the word "God" in John 1:18 does not have an article where the word "God" means YHWH God - in like manner to John 1:1.

People that claim Jesus is created and that Jesus is not YHWH God deny the Word of God.

CONCLUSION 4 (addressing your scope exceeding claim that there are many gods with respect to the New Testament)

The Greek word θεὸς (Strong's 2316 - also Θεὸν - Theos, theos [transliteration] - God, Deity, god, deity [English]) can be dependent upon surrounding grammar and context.

The Greek word ἄγγελος (Strong's 32 - aggelos [transliteration] - messenger, angel [English]) is the parlance for angel in the New Testament, and the word θεὸς (God) is never used to refer to an ἄγγελος (angel) in the New Testament.

In the 27 books of the New Testament, the word "god" is used in one of two ways.

The first way is in the good sense which is in reference to YHWH, and I prefer a capital "G" for the good sense, like this, YHWH God.

The second way is in the evil sense which can be in reference to the devil, and I prefer a lower case "g" for the evil sense, like this, the god of this world.

Only two senses for the word "god" exists, and the senses are either good or evil. There is no middle ground.

Of the over 1000 times that the Greek word θεὸς (Strong's 2316 - also Θεὸν - God, god) or it's inflections are used in the New Testament, only the good sense or the evil sense indicated above are represented, as shown in this concordance page blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2316/nasb95/tr/0-1/, and I reviewed all the included verses to make certain - and θεὸς (God) is not used one time to indicate angels.

The good sense for the word θεὸς (God) applies to Jesus; therefore, John declares Jesus is YHWH God in John 1:1 for only God is good (Mark 4:18).

THE GREEK WORD THEOS (GOD) EXCLUSIVELY REFERS TO THE ONE TRUE GOD (DEUTERONOMY 6:4) IN THE GOOD SENSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, SO "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD" (JOHN 1:1) REFERS TO JESUS AS THE ONE TRUE GOD.

 

[NayborBear]

You are repeating concepts which have already been covered with you. Your repetition is in things like your above writing of "I've shown where Jesus was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9)' and "you'd also have to explain why God talks and prayers to Himself so often".

If I may? I'd like to offer an explanation as to the why Jesus Christ so oft times separated Himself from His Disciples, and "went off to pray."

Ya see? Jesus, being fully man? Could not have carried the degradation of sin that "flesh man" soaks up like a sponge, to the cross, if He wasn't fully (a) flesh man!

And God the Father? Would not have been able pardon/forgive us miserable worm infested "flesh units" of little faith (if you will) UNLESS His Christ was FULLY FLESH!

And this flesh man Jesus having the WHOLE "Spirit of God" residing (meno/abiding) in Him since birth, and even before, as God's faithful servants the Prophets were instructed to bare witness to, and record in writing of (as the "oral" tranferences of "the Law" had long since been "rejected" by JEHOVAH as a "reliable" means of "carrying on" His Spirit or "walking amongst men's" spirit started striving WITH God's (JEHOVAH'S) Spirit. LONG before (even) Abraham! (true story)

In the hopes of trying to explain why the SPIRIT man Christ HAD to be in CONSTANT CONTACT WITH He who "begot" His Spirit INTO this flesh man Jesus! Or run the risk of the flesh unit (if you will) that Christ was inhabiting making NULL the Father's "BRANCH" by traditions and precepts of men!

Which brings us to the internal "struggles"/battle/war/s between every "born from above" Christ man/woman (lol), and these flesh bodies that we inhabit. That EVERY Disciple of Christ and EVERY Apostle of Christ TRIED to explain the differences of in practically EVERY book of the New Testament!
WE live in and with these two realities inside us!

Which is why I myself, have such a hard time trying to "bring someone to Jesus."
Because, NOT ONE of the Disciples or Apostles of Jesus died from "natural causes!"
They ALL died VERY VIOLENT deaths! EVERY ONE OF 'EM!
Because I DON'T have, or am even ABLE to "put pillows" on God's outreached hands! (see Ezekiel 13 KJV).
I have NOT, nor care to have (for that matter) the ability to "save alive the souls of those who should not live, while condemning those souls who should not die!"
Because? I have NOT made a "covenant with death!"
And? I am NOT in "agreement with hell!" (see Isaiah 28 KJV)

And when YOU are able to correctly discern the differences between these 2 realities?
YOU won't either!
Because? The "Order of Melchizedek" is NOT just some dictate or mandate written up by some guy named Melchizedek!
It IS an Holy Priesthood!
A FOREVER Priesthood!
(see 1 Peter-2:5)
This is why MANY are "called" (to this priesthood)
FEW are "chosen" (for this priesthood)
Yeah? If it were EASY? EVERYONE would be saved!
Right?

 

[David in NJ]

If I may? I'd like to offer an explanation as to the why Jesus Christ so oft times separated Himself from His Disciples, and "went off to pray."

Ya see? Jesus, being fully man? Could not have carried the degradation of sin that "flesh man" soaks up like a sponge, to the cross, if He wasn't fully (a) flesh man!

And God the Father? Would not have been able pardon/forgive us miserable worm infested "flesh units" of little faith (if you will) UNLESS His Christ was FULLY FLESH!

And this flesh man Jesus having the WHOLE "Spirit of God" residing (meno/abiding) in Him since birth, and even before, as God's faithful servants the Prophets were instructed to bare witness to, and record in writing of (as the "oral" tranferences of "the Law" had long since been "rejected" by JEHOVAH as a "reliable" means of "carrying on" His Spirit or "walking amongst men's" spirit started striving WITH God's (JEHOVAH'S) Spirit. LONG before (even) Abraham! (true story)

In the hopes of trying to explain why the SPIRIT man Christ HAD to be in CONSTANT CONTACT WITH He who "begot" His Spirit INTO this flesh man Jesus! Or run the risk of the flesh unit (if you will) that Christ was inhabiting making NULL the Father's "BRANCH" by traditions and precepts of men!

Which brings us to the internal "struggles"/battle/war/s between every "born from above" Christ man/woman (lol), and these flesh bodies that we inhabit. That EVERY Disciple of Christ and EVERY Apostle of Christ TRIED to explain the differences of in practically EVERY book of the New Testament!
WE live in and with these two realities inside us!

Which is why I myself, have such a hard time trying to "bring someone to Jesus."
Because, NOT ONE of the Disciples or Apostles of Jesus died from "natural causes!"
They ALL died VERY VIOLENT deaths! EVERY ONE OF 'EM!
Because I DON'T have, or am even ABLE to "put pillows" on God's outreached hands! (see Ezekiel 13 KJV).
I have NOT, nor care to have (for that matter) the ability to "save alive the souls of those who should not live, while condemning those souls who should not die!"
Because? I have NOT made a "covenant with death!"
And? I am NOT in "agreement with hell!" (see Isaiah 28 KJV)

And when YOU are able to correctly discern the differences between these 2 realities?
YOU won't either!
Because? The "Order of Melchizedek" is NOT just some dictate or mandate written up by some guy named Melchizedek!
It IS an Holy Priesthood!
A FOREVER Priesthood!
(see 1 Peter-2:5)
This is why MANY are "called" (to this priesthood)
FEW are "chosen" (for this priesthood)
Yeah? If it were EASY? EVERYONE would be saved!
Right?

Do you know/realize that LORD Jesus Christ never prayed to YHWH/Yahweh(or Jehovah).
the LORD Jesus Christ only prayed to His FATHER.

Dwell on that.

 

[NayborBear]

Do you know/realize that LORD Jesus Christ never prayed to YHWH/Yahweh(or Jehovah).
the LORD Jesus Christ only prayed to His FATHER.

Dwell on that.

Thought I explained that here:

In the hopes of trying to explain why the SPIRIT man Christ HAD to be in CONSTANT CONTACT WITH He who "begot" His Spirit INTO this flesh man Jesus! Or run the risk of the flesh unit (if you will) that Christ was inhabiting making NULL the Father's "BRANCH" by traditions and precepts of men!

So, in that regard, I don't think I ever did say Jesus prayed to Jehovah.

But, I reckon one could take away an inference that Jesus prayed to JEHOVAH here: (if that's as far as you read)

And this flesh man Jesus having the WHOLE "Spirit of God" residing (meno/abiding) in Him since birth, and even before, as God's faithful servants the Prophets were instructed to bare witness to, and record in writing of (as the "oral" tranferences of "the Law" had long since been "rejected" by JEHOVAH as a "reliable" means of "carrying on" His Spirit or "walking amongst men's" spirit started striving WITH God's (JEHOVAH'S) Spirit. LONG before (even) Abraham! (true story)

In which I was pointing out what Christ stated to the Priests that were around during His "flesh time" on earth.
And? The "Government" that Christ bares/carries on His shoulders was "set up" and "put into play", so to speak.

 

[Kermos]

I see your point. So you and I are not one with Jesus and God. OK. However, you and I (and all other Christians) are actually one person? Or should I say millions of people with one essence to keep with the traditional verbiage? Does that even make any difference, let alone sense? I'm thinking not.

You are you, I'm me, Jesus is Jesus, and YHWY is YHWH. That's something our God given brains can actually comprehend. But unfortunately you've been fooled into believing the Greek mystery religions (Gnosticism) where only the enlightened can supposedly make sense out of nonsense. I don't say that to condemn you in any way. We all have our shortcomings. Belief in the trinity is not the worse thing a Christian can do. God knows our frames and loves us regardless. He understands the power that tradition holds over His people.

You demonstrated a degree of humility in the opening of your post, Rich R! Truly, the point is the Word of God's point. I am being pedantic here, specifically, Jesus' language gives us that Jesus distinguishes between "one" being the people of God and "one" being the Father and Son in John 17:21-22.

Rich R, while we engaged in an exchange about the people of God being "one" already, I prefer to bring the focus back to the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) at this time in the next paragraph.

The Word (John 1:1, John 1:14, the Word is Jesus Christ) says "We are One" (John 17:22) about the person of the Father along with the person of the Word being "One" as in the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

According to your assertion of "But unfortunately you've been fooled into believing the Greek mystery religions (Gnosticism) where only the enlightened can supposedly make sense" you've asserted that the Apostle Paul is a Greek Gnostic since Paul wrote "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

A person must believe Lord Jesus Christ's sayings in order to be a Christian for Christ says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Rich R, those are profound sayings of Jesus! Here are additional profound sayings of Jesus which harken to "Who Jesus is".

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Rich R, Jesus' sayings includes more about "I AM" in the same passage as John 8:58 with the Christ's sayings of "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

Rich R, John 8:24 and John 8:58 are related, and the relationship is Spiritually clear that Jesus is YHWH God.

Rich R, see that unless you believe that Jesus is I AM, you will die in your sins.

You misspelled YHWH, again. The Holy Name of God, you misspelled as if God's Name is insignificant.

Names are significant in Hebrew, to Hebrews, to the children of God, to God!

God indicates how reverently we are to touch the Name of God with "O YHWH, our Lord, how majestic is Your Name in all the earth!" (Psalm 8:9).

The Power of the Name of Jesus is manifest with "But Peter said, 'I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the Name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene— walk!'" (Acts 3:6), then it happened to the man who had been lame from his mother's womb (Acts 3:2) "And seizing him by the right hand, he raised him up; and immediately his feet and his ankles were strengthened" (Acts 3:7).

And, another name, but this time the firstborn human male of Jacob "Leah conceived and bore a son and named him Reuben, for she said, 'Because YHWH has seen my affliction; surely now my husband will love me.'" (Genesis 29:32). Reuben means "behold a son", "see the son".

Rich R, treat the righteous Name of the God Most High with reverence.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

Thought I explained that here:

In the hopes of trying to explain why the SPIRIT man Christ HAD to be in CONSTANT CONTACT WITH He who "begot" His Spirit INTO this flesh man Jesus! Or run the risk of the flesh unit (if you will) that Christ was inhabiting making NULL the Father's "BRANCH" by traditions and precepts of men!

So, in that regard, I don't think I ever did say Jesus prayed to Jehovah.

But, I reckon one could take away an inference that Jesus prayed to JEHOVAH here: (if that's as far as you read)

And this flesh man Jesus having the WHOLE "Spirit of God" residing (meno/abiding) in Him since birth, and even before, as God's faithful servants the Prophets were instructed to bare witness to, and record in writing of (as the "oral" tranferences of "the Law" had long since been "rejected" by JEHOVAH as a "reliable" means of "carrying on" His Spirit or "walking amongst men's" spirit started striving WITH God's (JEHOVAH'S) Spirit. LONG before (even) Abraham! (true story)

In which I was pointing out what Christ stated to the Priests that were around during His "flesh time" on earth.
And? The "Government" that Christ bares/carries on His shoulders was "set up" and "put into play", so to speak.

I fully understand these points as well - i was not questioning them = i fully understand why YHWH came in the flesh.

Which is why YHWH never prayed to Himself but only to His FATHER.

 

[Kermos]

If I may? I'd like to offer an explanation as to the why Jesus Christ so oft times separated Himself from His Disciples, and "went off to pray."

Ya see? Jesus, being fully man? Could not have carried the degradation of sin that "flesh man" soaks up like a sponge, to the cross, if He wasn't fully (a) flesh man!

And God the Father? Would not have been able pardon/forgive us miserable worm infested "flesh units" of little faith (if you will) UNLESS His Christ was FULLY FLESH!

And this flesh man Jesus having the WHOLE "Spirit of God" residing (meno/abiding) in Him since birth, and even before, as God's faithful servants the Prophets were instructed to bare witness to, and record in writing of (as the "oral" tranferences of "the Law" had long since been "rejected" by JEHOVAH as a "reliable" means of "carrying on" His Spirit or "walking amongst men's" spirit started striving WITH God's (JEHOVAH'S) Spirit. LONG before (even) Abraham! (true story)

In the hopes of trying to explain why the SPIRIT man Christ HAD to be in CONSTANT CONTACT WITH He who "begot" His Spirit INTO this flesh man Jesus! Or run the risk of the flesh unit (if you will) that Christ was inhabiting making NULL the Father's "BRANCH" by traditions and precepts of men!

Which brings us to the internal "struggles"/battle/war/s between every "born from above" Christ man/woman (lol), and these flesh bodies that we inhabit. That EVERY Disciple of Christ and EVERY Apostle of Christ TRIED to explain the differences of in practically EVERY book of the New Testament!
WE live in and with these two realities inside us!

Which is why I myself, have such a hard time trying to "bring someone to Jesus."
Because, NOT ONE of the Disciples or Apostles of Jesus died from "natural causes!"
They ALL died VERY VIOLENT deaths! EVERY ONE OF 'EM!
Because I DON'T have, or am even ABLE to "put pillows" on God's outreached hands! (see Ezekiel 13 KJV).
I have NOT, nor care to have (for that matter) the ability to "save alive the souls of those who should not live, while condemning those souls who should not die!"
Because? I have NOT made a "covenant with death!"
And? I am NOT in "agreement with hell!" (see Isaiah 28 KJV)

And when YOU are able to correctly discern the differences between these 2 realities?
YOU won't either!
Because? The "Order of Melchizedek" is NOT just some dictate or mandate written up by some guy named Melchizedek!
It IS an Holy Priesthood!
A FOREVER Priesthood!
(see 1 Peter-2:5)
This is why MANY are "called" (to this priesthood)
FEW are "chosen" (for this priesthood)
Yeah? If it were EASY? EVERYONE would be saved!
Right?

You conveyed that you think that Jesus is "fully man" and "FULLY FLESH", yet you supply no supporting scriptural references.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

You conveyed that you think that Jesus is "fully man" and "FULLY FLESH", yet you supply no supporting scriptural references.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

CORRECT

This is where they confuse themselves and cannot SEE

 

[NayborBear]

You conveyed that you think that Jesus is "fully man" and "FULLY FLESH", yet you supply no supporting scriptural references.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Why need I? When "texticians" such as yourself, supply all the texts?
To me? It's like Prego spaghetti sauce.
(I know) "It's in there!"

Furthermore? It's like when God started me on this journey some 35+years ago. At FIRST? I was so excited about (for lack of a better explanation) being "visited?" I jumped up and spent some 500 dollars on some Moody Bible Institute home college courses!
After the first lesson from the first course of theseveral courses I ordered? He spoke into my ear asking: You want "them" to teach you?" "Or Me?"
My life was never the same after that.
He tells me I have a "gift" of sorts I reckon, or having an ability of speaking "street english." Much in the same manner I suppose that the Apostle Paul spoke "street Greek."
Which oft times makes that which I communicate sound (how can I say) offensive in the ears of "men/women of the cloth" who have studied years and years and spent a whole lot more then 500 bucks (of the which? after that encounter, I pursued Moody's no further.....would you?) to become proficient in the ability of "buzz word" usage in some sort of "piffing contest" in their ability of word usages. Which to these eyes/ears shows them to be very similar to that which our Lord and Savior (also referred to as JEHOVAH'S Savior, or JEHOVAH'S salvation. Not so much that Christ IS Jehovah, but rather, saving, enduring, preservering, as well as Preaching the Kingdom's of Heaven and Light as in PROTECTING JEHOVAH'S HOLY NAME as in the Government of aforesaid Kingdom of God! In which Christ bares on His shoulders.)
SAME "Spirit" of God. Just a different administrative manifestation. As the Apostle Paul illustrated concerning "Spiritual gifts" of the Spirit of God, which is different, and not to be conflated AS the "gift of the Holy Spirit. Which is not to be confused with the "Fruit of the Spirit" in which these "gifts" (which are irrevocable btw) and how they are to BE used in "the affairs of men."....and as you can see I am babbling now due to a lack of spiritual discernment in this "hair splitting." But? Hopefully is fair evidence as to how things can and do become conflated and confused.
Which means this is as far as I can go on this particular tangent.
To go onwards on this tangent would be nothing more then "vanity."
To the which? I wished more teachers/preachers of whatever denominative pursuasion they may be might take heed in a phrase dirty Harry Callahan once coined.
"A man's GOT to know his limitations."

 

[Rich R]

Rich R, while we engaged in an exchange about the people of God being "one" already, I prefer to bring the focus back to the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) at this time in the next paragraph.

The Word (John 1:1, John 1:14, the Word is Jesus Christ) says "We are One" (John 17:22) about the person of the Father along with the person of the Word being "One" as in the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

You mentioned my use of the word "with" instead of "in." So why do you mention "the person of the Father" and "the person of the Word?" Those phrases aren't in the scriptures anymore than "they be one WITH us."

The Word (John 1:1, John 1:14, the Word is Jesus Christ) says "We are One" (John 17:22) about the person of the Father along with the person of the Word being "One" as in the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

While astute enough to spot my error of changing "in" to "with," you don't seem as keen in noticing your own writings. What's with all this "...about the Father along with the person of the word...?" Here's the actual scripture:

John 17:21-23,

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.​

I see that we are one "in" God and Jesus. But that's all. Nothing there like, "about the Father..." But it does say in no uncertain terms that Jesus was praying that you and I, along with all other born again folks, are one. Exactly the same words used when Jesus said he and the Father are one. If Jesus was saying he was God, then you must be me...or is it that I must be you...or must we be something even weirder?

We as a society have all agreed what it means to be "one" with something and it doesn't mean it actually IS that something. We know full well that it means two or more people are united in goals, purpose, action, etc. We take it like that as far as all believers being one (John 17:21-22). What makes John 17:11 any different? After all Jesus said on more than one occasion that he only did what God wanted him to do. God said it...Jesus did it and he did it perfectly, crossed every jot and tittle. That fits with the normal way we take that phrase and we don't have to explain away:

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

According to your assertion of "But unfortunately you've been fooled into believing the Greek mystery religions (Gnosticism) where only the enlightened can supposedly make sense" you've asserted that the Apostle Paul is a Greek Gnostic since Paul wrote "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

You are assuming spiritual things don't have to make sense. I think that if there is anything in this world that makes sense, it is God who is spirit (John 4;24). God, and therefore his words, are the epitome of logic. I trust you understand we get the word "logic" from "logos" of John 1:1. How ironic that many twist that word to mean something that actually defies logic to the max, i.e. that a son and his father are actually one person. OK, I know, its supposedly two people with one "essence." At least that's what the Athenasian Creed says. Of course the word "oosia" (essence) is not found in the actual scriptures. But you can find it abounding in Greek philosophy. Hmmmm....who to believe?

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:​

We were literally with God in the beginning?

What exactly didn't you agree with after researching what the ancient Jews thought about pre existence?

And why does everybody keep using John to prove Jesus is God when John himself said he wrote to prove Jesus is the Messiah, the SON of God (John 20:31)? He didn't say he wanted to prove Jesus IS God.

Rich R, see that unless you believe that Jesus is I AM, you will die in your sins.

Too bad none of the Apostles in Acts knew this. None of them mentioned anything about believing Jesus is "I AM" or that he is God. All I did was Romans 10:9-10. I confessed him as my Lord, my new boss (I trust you know that not all lords in the scriptures are God). At that moment God made me a new creation (Col 1:27), one that is as righteous as He is (Rom 3:22). I am God's workmanship (Eph 2:10). I have to weigh that against you telling me I will die in my sins. Hmmmm....who to believe?

You misspelled YHWH, again. The Holy Name of God, you misspelled as if God's Name is insignificant.

Nothing more than fast typing and fat fingers.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Many OT figures had "el" in their name? Does that make all of them God?

God was IN Jesus (2 Cor 5:19), so in that sense God was indeed with us. Christ is IN us (Col 1:27) so wherever we are Christ is! But it's even better; since God was in Christ, God is also in us! Wherever we are, so is God in Christ. Pretty good if you ask me! Also a huge responsibility. We represent God in this lost world. We better act like it (at least as best as we can).

For the record; I do love you as a brother! I'm glad God saved you from your trespasses and sins.

 

[Kermos]

Why need I? When "texticians" such as yourself, supply all the texts?
To me? It's like Prego spaghetti sauce.
(I know) "It's in there!"

Furthermore? It's like when God started me on this journey some 35+years ago. At FIRST? I was so excited about (for lack of a better explanation) being "visited?" I jumped up and spent some 500 dollars on some Moody Bible Institute home college courses!
After the first lesson from the first course of theseveral courses I ordered? He spoke into my ear asking: You want "them" to teach you?" "Or Me?"
My life was never the same after that.
He tells me I have a "gift" of sorts I reckon, or having an ability of speaking "street english." Much in the same manner I suppose that the Apostle Paul spoke "street Greek."
Which oft times makes that which I communicate sound (how can I say) offensive in the ears of "men/women of the cloth" who have studied years and years and spent a whole lot more then 500 bucks (of the which? after that encounter, I pursued Moody's no further.....would you?) to become proficient in the ability of "buzz word" usage in some sort of "piffing contest" in their ability of word usages. Which to these eyes/ears shows them to be very similar to that which our Lord and Savior (also referred to as JEHOVAH'S Savior, or JEHOVAH'S salvation. Not so much that Christ IS Jehovah, but rather, saving, enduring, preservering, as well as Preaching the Kingdom's of Heaven and Light as in PROTECTING JEHOVAH'S HOLY NAME as in the Government of aforesaid Kingdom of God! In which Christ bares on His shoulders.)
SAME "Spirit" of God. Just a different administrative manifestation. As the Apostle Paul illustrated concerning "Spiritual gifts" of the Spirit of God, which is different, and not to be conflated AS the "gift of the Holy Spirit. Which is not to be confused with the "Fruit of the Spirit" in which these "gifts" (which are irrevocable btw) and how they are to BE used in "the affairs of men."....and as you can see I am babbling now due to a lack of spiritual discernment in this "hair splitting." But? Hopefully is fair evidence as to how things can and do become conflated and confused.
Which means this is as far as I can go on this particular tangent.
To go onwards on this tangent would be nothing more then "vanity."
To the which? I wished more teachers/preachers of whatever denominative pursuasion they may be might take heed in a phrase dirty Harry Callahan once coined.
"A man's GOT to know his limitations."

The bottom line is you just posted a whole lot of your thoughts without reference to the Word of God.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Your thoughts are empty without the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[jaybird]

It's ironic that John is the goto book for trinity. He stated why he wrote his Gospel, namely:

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:​

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Nothing there about trying to prove Jesus is God. What's so wrong about Jesus being the Christ, the son of God? Why the insistence that Jesus is God? I guess it's because of tradition. Always have to remember that for the vast majority of the last 2,000 years only the church had access to the scriptures. Less than 600 years ago John Tyndale was executed for translating the Bible into English. That was nice, but too late for 98% of Christians being led by tradition instead of the truth. Oh well, they're our brothers and sisters and we love them as God loves them.

yes i have brought this up before, nothing wrong with believing what the bible clearly and plainly says. but not good enough for the trins, they believe you are not a Christian if you dont believe what is not said, what can not be explained, and what can not stand up to questioning.
very sad

 

[jaybird]

You most certainly do desperately try to change the Word of God . . .

New International Version
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

New Living Translation
I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.

English Standard Version
that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

New American Standard Bible
that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.


which sage said dont bother correcting the fool as its best to let them be and continue digging their hole?

 

[tigger 2]

Clear Challenges to the Trinity - A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians | Page 59 | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board #1170

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
....................................................
Answer to A -

Here is what I have found when searching the scriptures for visions of God:

Even though God has caused a representation of himself to be "seen" in dreams and visions, we still don’t know exactly what he "physically" looks like. Still, we should get some idea of the essential knowledge he wants us to know about himself from these inspired visions. We know that he always represents himself as a single person seated on a throne.

For example, at Ezekiel 1:5, 6, 26-28 we see God as he showed himself to Ezekiel in a vision.

"and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, but each of them had four faces..." - Ezek. 1:5-6, NIV.

Now if this had actually been the description of God, "multiple-oneness God" fans would have had the best proof ever for their passion: we would finally have some real evidence for a multiple-oneness God: a four-in-one God (a "Quadrinity")! But these four persons, each with four faces, represent God’s attendants (cherubim), not God. Each one represents 4 different aspects by its 4 faces. Can you imagine what would be said by trinitarians if God were similarly described as three persons each with three faces?!

The point is that God could (and did) show a clear representation of "multiple-oneness" in vision to his inspired prophet, but he never represented himself in such a manner!

Notice that each of these living creatures was in appearance like a man. And every aspect that differed from that of "a man" was carefully described.

Now notice the rest of the vision:

"Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a [single] throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a [single] figure like that of a [single] man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist [singular] up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of [Jehovah]." - Ezek. 1:26-28, NIV.

Remember, we just had a description of spirit persons each of whom looked like a man (except for having four faces). Now we have a description of another person who looks like a man. The differences from the appearance of a man are also noted but do not include anything that would make us think he was, in any way, anything more than a single person! Not three persons, not three heads, not three faces, etc. (In fact, nowhere in the entire Bible is the word "three" associated with a description of God! This simply would not be if God were truly three persons!)

God is a single person, the Father alone, Jehovah.

Now let’s see Daniel’s vision of God:

"the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head [singular] was white like wool. His throne [singular] was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze." - Dan. 7:9, NIV.

Notice that, again, he looks like a single person.

And then,

"one, like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days [seated on the throne] and was led into his presence." - Dan. 7:13, NIV.

So we see a single person seated on God’s throne and another person (the Messiah) being led into God’s presence.

Now let’s see the Apostle John’s vision which parallels Daniel’s vision:

"At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper.... In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures.... Day and night they never stop saying: ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty...’ [and] ‘You are worthy, our Lord and God, ... for you created all things, and by your will they were created....’ Then I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides.... Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain.... He came and took the scroll from the right hand of Him who sat on the throne." - Rev. 4:2, 3, 6, 8, 11; 5:1, 6, 7, NIV.

Again we see a single person on the throne who is God Almighty (Jehovah). And, again, we see the Christ approach God on his throne. And we see this one on the throne again at Rev. 19:4.

"The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: ‘Amen, Hallelujah! ["praise Jehovah "]’" - NIV.

Another important vision of God is that of Stephen.

"But Stephen, full of Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’" - Acts 7:55, 56, NIV.

Again we see God (not "God the Father," or "the Father," but God) as a single person and Jesus as another person (not God, however). And never (in any vision, dream, etc.) do we see the "person" of the Holy Spirit! God is the Father alone - a single person - Jehovah.

God simply has not revealed himself in clear, undisputed scripture as anything but a single person, the Father. The Jews never understood him in any other way. Jesus did not reveal him in any other way. The NT writers did not reveal him in any other way (other than through generalizations, "mystery" solving, and allegorical interpretations which allow a reader to find whatever he is looking for). And the very first Christians (up into the second century at least) did not understand God in any other way.

If God were three persons, it would have been revealed clearly and repeatedly from the beginning. This is essential knowledge of God, and all worshipers of the true God have needed such knowledge from the beginning. God would not have withheld it from his chosen people throughout the thousands of years of his Prophets and inspired scripture writers.

I'll continue with part B next time.
……………………………..

 

[David in NJ]

Clear Challenges to the Trinity - A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians | Page 59 | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board #1170

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
....................................................
Answer to A -

Here is what I have found when searching the scriptures for visions of God:

Even though God has caused a representation of himself to be "seen" in dreams and visions, we still don’t know exactly what he "physically" looks like. Still, we should get some idea of the essential knowledge he wants us to know about himself from these inspired visions. We know that he always represents himself as a single person seated on a throne.

For example, at Ezekiel 1:5, 6, 26-28 we see God as he showed himself to Ezekiel in a vision.

"and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, but each of them had four faces..." - Ezek. 1:5-6, NIV.

Now if this had actually been the description of God, "multiple-oneness God" fans would have had the best proof ever for their passion: we would finally have some real evidence for a multiple-oneness God: a four-in-one God (a "Quadrinity")! But these four persons, each with four faces, represent God’s attendants (cherubim), not God. Each one represents 4 different aspects by its 4 faces. Can you imagine what would be said by trinitarians if God were similarly described as three persons each with three faces?!

The point is that God could (and did) show a clear representation of "multiple-oneness" in vision to his inspired prophet, but he never represented himself in such a manner!

Notice that each of these living creatures was in appearance like a man. And every aspect that differed from that of "a man" was carefully described.

Now notice the rest of the vision:

"Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a [single] throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a [single] figure like that of a [single] man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist [singular] up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of [Jehovah]." - Ezek. 1:26-28, NIV.

Remember, we just had a description of spirit persons each of whom looked like a man (except for having four faces). Now we have a description of another person who looks like a man. The differences from the appearance of a man are also noted but do not include anything that would make us think he was, in any way, anything more than a single person! Not three persons, not three heads, not three faces, etc. (In fact, nowhere in the entire Bible is the word "three" associated with a description of God! This simply would not be if God were truly three persons!)

God is a single person, the Father alone, Jehovah.

Now let’s see Daniel’s vision of God:

"the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head [singular] was white like wool. His throne [singular] was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze." - Dan. 7:9, NIV.

Notice that, again, he looks like a single person.

And then,

"one, like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days [seated on the throne] and was led into his presence." - Dan. 7:13, NIV.

So we see a single person seated on God’s throne and another person (the Messiah) being led into God’s presence.

Now let’s see the Apostle John’s vision which parallels Daniel’s vision:

"At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper.... In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures.... Day and night they never stop saying: ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty...’ [and] ‘You are worthy, our Lord and God, ... for you created all things, and by your will they were created....’ Then I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides.... Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain.... He came and took the scroll from the right hand of Him who sat on the throne." - Rev. 4:2, 3, 6, 8, 11; 5:1, 6, 7, NIV.

Again we see a single person on the throne who is God Almighty (Jehovah). And, again, we see the Christ approach God on his throne. And we see this one on the throne again at Rev. 19:4.

"The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: ‘Amen, Hallelujah! ["praise Jehovah "]’" - NIV.

Another important vision of God is that of Stephen.

"But Stephen, full of Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’" - Acts 7:55, 56, NIV.

Again we see God (not "God the Father," or "the Father," but God) as a single person and Jesus as another person (not God, however). And never (in any vision, dream, etc.) do we see the "person" of the Holy Spirit! God is the Father alone - a single person - Jehovah.

God simply has not revealed himself in clear, undisputed scripture as anything but a single person, the Father. The Jews never understood him in any other way. Jesus did not reveal him in any other way. The NT writers did not reveal him in any other way (other than through generalizations, "mystery" solving, and allegorical interpretations which allow a reader to find whatever he is looking for). And the very first Christians (up into the second century at least) did not understand God in any other way.

If God were three persons, it would have been revealed clearly and repeatedly from the beginning. This is essential knowledge of God, and all worshipers of the true God have needed such knowledge from the beginning. God would not have withheld it from his chosen people throughout the thousands of years of his Prophets and inspired scripture writers.

I'll continue with part B next time.
……………………………..

The LORD has this completely covered in Genesis and Exodus and then the Full Manifestation in the GOSPEL.

 

[Keiw]

John chapter 5 complety exposes the lie(s) of jw's and others that claim Jesus is not YHWH.

That would be impossible since in the book of John, Jesus clearly teaches--John 17:3--the one who sent him ( Father) = THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Its a shame you wont believe Jesus. And promises to keep on making his Fathers name known( John 17:26)=YHWH(Jehovah)
Jesus as well teaches in the book of John, how to serve the true God properly= John 4:22-24-- Its always best to believe Jesus over twisted things.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird

Let's examine the Apostle John's words "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1, in Greek "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος").

POINT 1: significance of "the God, and God" in Greek.

Of the three clauses in John 1:1, the transition between the 2nd and 3rd clause is "τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς" which is word-for-word English as "the God, and God".

In this passage we have the word "God" (θεόν) preceeded by the definite article "the" (τὸν) with the same word "God" (θεόν) followed by the conjunction "and" (καὶ) in turn followed by the word "God" (θεὸς) in anathrous (no definite article), essentially, "τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς" which is word-for-word English as "the God, and God".

The sequence employed by John is significant because John reinforces with intensity and amplification the usage of the word "God" with John's repetition of the word "God".

It is well established that the Jews repeat things to intensify, amplify, and reinforce a point being made.

The Apostle wonderfully binds the word "God" (θεόν) and the word "God" (θεὸς) in a harmony of One - the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) which includes the person of the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14).

John clearly means the One True God, the God Most High, YHWH God (Deuteronomy 6:4), for both instances of "God" in John 1:1 because John uses the word "God" in tandem in the verse.

In Truth (John 14:6), John uses both occurrences of "God" in John 1:1 as equivalent terms.

This means that the Apostle John is calling the Word (the Word is Jesus, John 1:1, John 1:14) "God"!

POINT 2: John confesses One True God.

John knew of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3); therefore, John referred to Jesus as YHWH God (θεὸς) with "the Word was God" in John 1:1 because John would not violate the commandment.

John has no gods before YHWH God, that is, Jesus is YHWH God according to the words of the Apostle John.

John knew that God is One (Deuteronomy 6:4), and John made it clear that Jesus is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) in John 1:1.

This means that the Apostle John confesses Jesus, the Word of God, is everlasting "God"!

POINT 3: another anathrous occurrence of the word "God" (Θεὸν) in John 1.

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him" (John 1:18, in Greek "Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο").

Recall, anathrous means a noun without an article, such as, in English, "the" for a definite article or "a" for an indefinite article.

The first occurrence of "God" (Θεὸν) in John 1:18 refers to YHWH God, yet this word "God" (Θεὸν) is anathrous, that is, there is no article, in like manner to there is no article for the word "God" (θεὸς) with "the Word was God" in John 1:1.

A Greek language semantic similarity exists between John 1:1 and the Septuagint's Nahum 1:2 in that each of these verses employ an anathrous Θεὸς (God) noun. Nahum 1:2 in the Septuagint contains an anathrous Θεὸς (God) referring to the One True God, YHWH. Here is the Greek "Θεὸς ζηλωτὴς καὶ ἐκδικῶν κύριος, ἐκδικῶν κύριος µετὰ θυµοῦ ἐκδικῶν κύριος τοὺς ὑπεναντίους αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐξαίρων αὐτὸς τοὺς ἐχθροὺς αὐτοῦ" (Nahum 1:2) for which the Septuagint translated to English is "God is jealous, and Lord is punishing; Lord is punishing with rage; Lord is punishing his adversaries, and lifting away himself of his enemies" (Nahum 1:2) - clearly Θεὸς (God) refers to the One True God, YHWH God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Behold, Θεὸς (God) in Nahum 1:2 is the same word as θεὸς (God) in John 1:1!

Truly, the anathrous word "God" (Θεὸν/θεὸς) in John 1:18 and John 1:1 refers to YHWH God.

This means that the Apostle John proclaims the Word of God integrally is YHWH God!!!

CONCLUSION 1 (relates to POINT 1 above):

Mere human understanding cannot understand the harmony of the word "God" (θεόν) and the word "God" (θεὸς) in John 1:1, so the hearts of unregenerate souls tear the Word of God down from Deity into a mere man; therefore, the fleshly souls persist in a state of damnation.

The Holy Spirit reveals the glorious harmony recorded in John 1:1 which declares Jesus is the One True God!

CONCLUSION 2 (relates to POINT 2 above):

John is not going to refer Jesus as God resulting in two gods.

You subtract the fullness of "God" (θεὸς) in John 1:1; therefore, you have more than one God because you say that John 1:1 contains "the Word was a god".

Since your heart contends that Jesus is "a god", then you have more than one god which places you in violation of "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

According to your heart's treasure, you claim to have YHWH God + Jesus a god = two gods.

CONCLUSION 3 (relates to POINT 3 above):

The anathrous Greek word for "God" translates to meaning YHWH God elsewhere besides John 1:1 in the New Testament, for example the first occurrence of the word "God" in John 1:18 does not have an article where the word "God" means YHWH God - in like manner to John 1:1.

People that claim Jesus is created and that Jesus is not YHWH God deny the Word of God.

CONCLUSION 4 (addressing your scope exceeding claim that there are many gods with respect to the New Testament)

The Greek word θεὸς (Strong's 2316 - also Θεὸν - Theos, theos [transliteration] - God, Deity, god, deity [English]) can be dependent upon surrounding grammar and context.

The Greek word ἄγγελος (Strong's 32 - aggelos [transliteration] - messenger, angel [English]) is the parlance for angel in the New Testament, and the word θεὸς (God) is never used to refer to an ἄγγελος (angel) in the New Testament.

In the 27 books of the New Testament, the word "god" is used in one of two ways.

The first way is in the good sense which is in reference to YHWH, and I prefer a capital "G" for the good sense, like this, YHWH God.

The second way is in the evil sense which can be in reference to the devil, and I prefer a lower case "g" for the evil sense, like this, the god of this world.

Only two senses for the word "god" exists, and the senses are either good or evil. There is no middle ground.

Of the over 1000 times that the Greek word θεὸς (Strong's 2316 - also Θεὸν - God, god) or it's inflections are used in the New Testament, only the good sense or the evil sense indicated above are represented, as shown in this concordance page blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2316/nasb95/tr/0-1/, and I reviewed all the included verses to make certain - and θεὸς (God) is not used one time to indicate angels.

The good sense for the word θεὸς (God) applies to Jesus; therefore, John declares Jesus is YHWH God in John 1:1 for only God is good (Mark 4:18).

THE GREEK WORD THEOS (GOD) EXCLUSIVELY REFERS TO THE ONE TRUE GOD (DEUTERONOMY 6:4) IN THE GOOD SENSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, SO "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD" (JOHN 1:1) REFERS TO JESUS AS THE ONE TRUE GOD.

2 spots in the NT where Ho Theos( true God) = capitol G, and plain Theos= small g god in the same paragraph. John 1:1-2 Cor 4:4-- the translating rule applies the same. Such a shame billions have been mislead by that translating error found at John 1:1--Jesus himself teaches how all need to serve the true God properly at John 4:22-24--It takes believing Jesus over error--the majority outright refuse. Again at John 17:3-Jesus is clear-the one who sent him= Father= THE ONLY TEUE GOD. BELIEVE JESUS.

 

[David in NJ]

That would be impossible since in the book of John, Jesus clearly teaches--John 17:3--the one who sent him ( Father) = THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Its a shame you wont believe Jesus. And promises to keep on making his Fathers name known( John 17:26)=YHWH(Jehovah)
Jesus as well teaches in the book of John, how to serve the true God properly= John 4:22-24-- Its always best to believe Jesus over twisted things.

i KNOW the LORD Jesus teaches us the FATHER sent Him = 100% TRUTH
This is what you don't know:
1.) the LORD Jesus never prays to YHWH but only to His FATHER
2.) the LORD Jesus never tells us to believe in YHWH but to believe in HIM/JESUS for Salvation and His FATHER
3.) the LORD Jesus says no one can come to the FATHER but thru HIM for JESUS is YHWH

BONUS: What is the NAME of the FATHER that the LORD Jesus Christ has given to us in John chapter 17 ???

 

[tigger 2]

The Most High God is Jehovah alone (Ps. 83:18). Jehovah is often called the Father (but he is never called the Son, the Firstborn, the Only-begotten, the Christ or Messiah, etc. - even many personal names of Israelites in the Bible actually said "Jehovah is the Father": "Abijah,' `Abiah,' `Joab,' etc. - but they never said anything remotely like `Jehovah is the Son' [or the Messiah, the Firstborn, etc.]!) - Deut. 32:6 ASV; Ps. 89:26, 27 (compare Heb. 1:5 and Ps. 2:7 ASV); Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8

 

[David in NJ]

The Most High God is Jehovah alone (Ps. 83:18). Jehovah is often called the Father (but he is never called the Son, the Firstborn, the Only-begotten, the Christ or Messiah, etc. - even many personal names of Israelites in the Bible actually said "Jehovah is the Father": "Abijah,' `Abiah,' `Joab,' etc. - but they never said anything remotely like `Jehovah is the Son' [or the Messiah, the Firstborn, etc.]!) - Deut. 32:6 ASV; Ps. 89:26, 27 (compare Heb. 1:5 and Ps. 2:7 ASV); Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8

You have it backwards = the religious thing to do..........

Gospel of John declares who the LORD Jesus is and HIS FATHER = the One True ELOHIM of Whom the LORD and the Holy Spirit are ONE/Echad.

The OT Saints were praying to YHWH who came in the flesh and dwelt among us.
YAHshuah means "the LORD/YAH came down and/or the LORD/YAH humbled Himself" = Philippians 2:5-9

The NT Saints also pray to YHWH = the LORD Jesus Christ = Philippians 2:5-9

the LORD says to you: "no one comes to the FATHER but thru the ME"

Same as it was in the OT for the FATHER never changed His Mind = John ch1

"In the Beginning was the Word, the Word was with Elohim and the Word was Elohim."

the prophets would speak by the words of LORD/YHWH thru the Ruach HaKodesh/Holy Spirit = 2 Peter 1:16-21

Same as NT "he who hears MY words shall live....."