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bbyrd009

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Did you have a Scripture in mind? I thought you were going to quote something to show us that eternal is bounded by time.

Much love!
And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son
.
I have no idea what you mean here. From what? Have we switched to talking about salvation, and what are we being saved from, and an eternity in hell? Is that where you're going with this?

Or something else?

Much love!
well, do you have any Quotes about being “saved from an eternity in hell?”
not a lawyer question, i genuinely dont know
Saul was rejected by God from being king, and he was rejected by God from being alive, what exactly was Saul's spiritual state before God? Had he been rejected from "being saved"?
from what? Obviously not “hell” right
but it does seem that he was “rejected,” or figuratively tossed into Gehenna by his peers? Rejected is rejected, seems to me anyway
I know it doesn't look good for him, but I'm not aware of Scriptures that settle this for us one way or the other. Maybe there is something there, but I don't know of it.

Much love!
man, id say when ones crown is taken from them by Yah, thats pretty indicative
 
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marks

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And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son
So then as the Son is eternal, when we share in His life, we are sharing in eternal life. The Son has endless life, with an unchanging priesthood, He ever lives to intercede for us.

That sounds like forever to me.

Much love!
 

marks

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well, do you have any Quotes about being “saved from an eternity in hell?”
No, that's not what I'm talking about here, only trying to understand what you are saying.

I was talking about eternal, eternity, everlasting, like that.

man, id say when ones crown is taken from them by Yah, thats pretty indicative
What was that passage? I'll take a look.

Much love!
 

bbyrd009

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That sounds like forever to me
in that case wouldnt it be This mortal must become immortal? The kingdom of heaven is not within you? You and your sons will not be here with me?
.
No, that's not what I'm talking about here, only trying to understand what you are saying.

I was talking about eternal, eternity, everlasting, like that
well, isnt our concept of “eternal” really tied up with our understanding of “salvation” leading to “eternal life?” Iow we need “eternal” to mean “forever” so that we can become immortals too, right? Otherwise we would likely have no problem with eternal meaning “a space of time, an age,” would we? So imo fix one, and the others fall into place. So, “saved, from what?” Every instance i can find seems to indicate “from the present calamity”

What was that passage? I'll take a look
out of time, sorry, but the one where David is anointed by Samuel i guess…or
26 But Samuel said to him, “I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you as king over Israel!”

27 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore
.

which i guess you get the significance of the robe tearing…
So then as the Son is eternal, when we share in His life, we are sharing in eternal life. The Son has endless life, with an unchanging priesthood, He ever lives to intercede for us.

That sounds like forever to me
so imo go with that then, but ones understanding should not be in contrast to other Scripture, either…
There is only One Immortal
No one has ever gone up to heaven
The kingdom of heaven is within
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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ah well, as pertains to our “salvation,” i guess we would first need to answer “from what?”
Not sure this addresses your two-sided question, but here goes.
The topic you posed was the word eternity. One of the most concise but yet misunderstood verses about heaven and hell (IMO) is
Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into eternal life." KJV
Notice the translation for the same word is different. It has a variable meaning. Everlasting is often thought of as meaning eternal, but I think the KJ scholars got this right.
There is a tention between the two realms, a physical and spiritual. Of course I am suggesting that the age-lasting punishment will be physical (the Lake of Fire also a physical event).
One realm exists in time and one outside of time. This will ruffle some feathers because it goes against the traditional view of Hell.
NIV and NASB use "eternal" for both states
YLT says, "age-during" punishment
and life age-during. Age-during would fit the judgment proportionate to sins committed that occurred during your lifetime and /or lasting till the end of the earth. However, age-during life does not quite contain thw fullness if eternity. But I like and use YLT.
Weymouth uses "punishment of the ages and "Life of the ages".
Now "punishment" comes from the word kolasis which means "cutting off".
I submit yet a new take on that verse combining two different translations:
"Then they will go away to age-lasting cutting off, but the righteous into eternal life."
 
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marks

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Now "punishment" comes from the word kolasis which means "cutting off".
I've been of the understanding this word means something else, the one other places it's used is:

1 John 4:18 KJV
18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

age-during torment/punishment, or age-during life.

(I like Young's also)

Much love!
 
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farouk

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I know it doesn't look good for him, but I'm not aware of Scriptures that settle this for us one way or the other. Maybe there is something there, but I don't know of it.

Much love!
@marks We learn in the NT for example that Lot was just, but as for Saul, I don't know of any Scripture clarification as to his true state before God at the end (though I can strongly guess...)
 

marks

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@marks We learn in the NT for example that Lot was just, but as for Saul, I don't know of any Scripture clarification as to his true state before God at the end (though I can strongly guess...)
I think a some of us have our guesses. I'm not one to base doctrine on my guess thought. To assume that Samuel and Saul shared the same eternal destiny, and to make that the template for our own expectations seems rather weak to me.

Much love!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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cont...
Perish and destroy mean: to cause cessation of being; utterly ruin; consume; demolish; to put an end to; to kill. Although perish sometimes means lost or no longer fit for intended use or marred, when pertaining to objects like a wine skin.

" that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:15

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thes. 2:8
Here are some other verses that address the cutting-off concept of death:
Matt. 7:19; Luke 3:9
Then an important verse concerning both body and soul. For those who think the soul is eternal, think again. God can and will destroy many souls. Notjce the scripture equates kill and destroy and tells us where it will happen:
"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." Matt. 10:28
We all know what killing the body means. Here again is confirmation that the souls survives death. Anything that is destroyed means it is put to an end. It may be an immediate kill or a process of a slower death, but inevitably the end comes, the end of existence.
" in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - from the face of the Lord. and from the glory of His strength." 2 Thes. 1:8, 9 YLT
How morbid is all this talk about death in one way but how wonderful in another.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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I've been of the understanding this word means something else, the one other places it's used is:

1 John 4:18 KJV
18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

age-during torment/punishment, or age-during life.

(I like Young's also)

Much love!
Yes. Punishment certainly doesn't always mean cutting off, just in that verse, the final event, at the GWT judgment, when death and hades and all who rejected Christ are thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed - first earth and heaven as well.
Torment is certainly lasting but temporal punishment in Hades, where souls await their final destruction.
 

GaryAnderson

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Does it worry you, Gary; that you might have to face dramatic events?
We Christians are told what we must do: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Acts 2:21, Joel 2:32

It gives me zero worry. I’m at peace and calm with this event which we will all face at some point. I just know with 99.99999% certainty that it won’t happen in my lifetime.
 

marks

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@marks Spiritually Saul and Samuel were rather different...
Understood.

And it seems Saul's last moments didn't go so well either. But was his sin atoned under the sacrifices? I don't know. Character and spiritual growth and judicial status may vary.

I realize, the common assumption is that Saul was lost, but I merely point out, this seems to be an assumption, and I'm not looking at that as a foundation for understanding what God is doing with us.

I'd sooner look to what the Bible says outright about this than to point to part of a verse, mix with an assumption, and consider that the word of truth for what happens when we die.

Much love!
 

farouk

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Understood.

And it seems Saul's last moments didn't go so well either. But was his sin atoned under the sacrifices? I don't know. Character and spiritual growth and judicial status may vary.

I realize, the common assumption is that Saul was lost, but I merely point out, this seems to be an assumption, and I'm not looking at that as a foundation for understanding what God is doing with us.

I'd sooner look to what the Bible says outright about this than to point to part of a verse, mix with an assumption, and consider that the word of truth for what happens when we die.

Much love!
@marks At the very least, Saul's is not an example to follow...
 
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marks

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Yes. Punishment certainly doesn't always mean cutting off, just in that verse, the final event, at the GWT judgment, when death and hades and all who rejected Christ are thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed - first earth and heaven as well.
Torment is certainly lasting but temporal punishment in Hades, where souls await their final destruction.

I'm saying that word doesn't mean cutting off. It means torment being meted out as punishment. So, "age-during torment", and, "age-during life".

The same word is used to describe the life of the righteous and the torment of the wicked. So whatever way you define the word for how long this lasts, it's the same for both. And one is Life, the other is Torment, these appear to be the two options.

Much love!
 

marks

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@marks At the very least, Saul's is not an example to follow...
He's become one of the all-time-great anti-heros of the faith, shadowing Christ Himself, in Samuel's word from the LORD to him, "I desire obedience, not sacrifice."

Jesus put the life to those words by obedience to His sacrificial death. The next thing for Saul was, "Then what is that bleeting of sheep I hear??" Audacity in the face of God, in that very moment the prophet spoke the words of Jesus' work for our redemption!

Much love!
 
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nenagana

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I'll agree with that and all the amimal kingdom at peace too. I wonder if God will recreate my dog for me? The resurrection and eternal life is promised to us only. I guess like Lot's wife ... we just can't look back. I am sure we will be more than happy in Paradise and with a new body - that is what I need right now ... 65 years old and counting.

Antiochus Epiphanes and the Sacrifice of the Pig (his body, in some respects).......................the Apostle Peter, was asked about the unclean animals that descended, and he didn't slay any of them...................God doesn't accept the work of the filthy or those genetic lines...............unfortunately, Antiochus only served as payment for sin, and delayed the natural ousting of the jews in jerusalem there....................if that area is holy, or still is holy, they would be driven out more often cyclically, in relation to either humanities spiritual sin, earth fields, or god's cyclical patterns.

(history is mostly accurate if it serves satan's agenda, otherwise, the information is suspect..................the verdict is he's action's seem righteous, but were only payment for sin delaying the ousting process, Antiochus Epiphanes, wasn't martyrped or something else filthy, that would of been the better answer, or not to have associated with that unclean area)
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I'm saying that word doesn't mean cutting off. It means torment being meted out as punishment. So, "age-during torment", and, "age-during life".

The same word is used to describe the life of the righteous and the torment of the wicked. So whatever way you define the word for how long this lasts, it's the same for both. And one is Life, the other is Torment, these appear to be the two options.

Much love!
I got "cutting off" from the root of the word, Kolazo ( the verb form meaning to prune, cut off). The noun Kolasis was formed from this word.

[The New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance tells us that kolasis comes from kolazo and kolos and that kolos means "docked" ("dock .... 1. to cut off" - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary).
And what does highly respected NT Greek expert W. E. Vine say about the source word (kolazo) for kolasis in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 903 ?: "kolazo primarily denotes to curtail, prune, dock (from kolos, docked)."]
 
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nenagana

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(thinking)

Arphaxad's Son is disputed in genesis and Luke's Genealogy, (the legal reason for this is that, god is voicing "joseph the blessings", and that argument would have ties to, the missing evolutionary links) (but humanity does not have a direct tie, humanity was formed out of ashes) (SO WHEN, Luke Accounts "Joseph", then Cainaan is the Son of Arphaxad which is the Son of Shem...............but in Genesis "Joseph" is not voiced, then Cainaan is not the Son of Arphaxad, that is only a reference to humanities sin, Cainaan is only a reference to humanities sin)

(The Purpose of Matthew's Genealogy : AOD ?)

(Matthew's Genealogy does not provide detail about "Joseph"..........its provides information about the "kings of judah" let me see if this is simplified)

MATTHEW 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
I KINGS 11:28 And the man Jeroboam [was] a mighty man of valour: and Solomon seeing the young man that he was industrious, he made him ruler over all the charge of the house of Joseph.

(The King in the Line of Judah, and there is a reason people say this.............notice that "joseph" was destroyed or profained (god's mercies) by Jeroboam............and this is why "Roboam" (Jeroboam), is stated and Joseph is not stated in matthew's genealogy)

(A King in the Line of David is not the subject of Matthew's Genealogy, it is a King in the Line of Judah, which are various profanities against Joseph, because, of the lord's body was not completed when they came upon joseph, is that simplified now? (pertaining to god's mercies)

The "AOD"/Abomination of Desolation, is Technically a Profanity against Joseph, and therefore its a Logical Statement that the AOD, in the last days would be identified in Matthew's Genealogy

.................
.................
.................
(Reply) (the AOD is named in matthew, but info is parabolic)

MATTHEW 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;

(Jesus was Crucified, and Joseph was taken away (Joseph took the lord's body).............and then Matthias was named the AOD, as the apostle...........its the theme of joseph being profained because the lord's body was incompleted when joseph was presented)

ROMANS 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
ROMANS 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


(Jacob murdered his mother and father, and cast out joseph, and then stole the wages of his son (joseph)............(Jacob was never righteous this is language for AOD, abomination of desolation.................

(we don't have RABIES, what I am trying to say is that what AOD is implied to mean..............this earth field right now, cannot furnish or support the original design in transition the human body originally had, (the body was created for function in a unified field, but could be scaled down, the body is holy)................(AOD) is an incomplete reaction, RABIES is not the right phrase, but with the inability to category the argument, its the only correct answer.)

AOD = an imperfect person, an imperfect resurrected body
(we just don't have anything like that taking place on earth right now, period. COVID19, is the first piece of information into this area, but its just not enough to satisfy the argument the gospel has associated with AOD=Abomination of Desolation.................we just can't be sure, because from God's perspective, a sign or a vision or a judgment is a privilege in the last days, but the timetable we are on still looks like 2022 or shortly after that)

EDIT (not really legal evidence this is a description of Matthias, the apostle that only appear relative to crucifixion) (AOD/Abomination of Desolation) (Imperfect Resurrected Body)

ACTS 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name [was] Barjesus:

(this is how people answer god, that there is not a clear cut answer on certain issues, humanity may just die blind, its very sad, but if you continue to be faithful its not really that bad)
 
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Davy

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Once again you misrepresented my posts.
I am not pushing anything, it is a "new take" (opinion to be shared and discussed).
And I suggested that the abomination of desolation has occurred several times in history, not that it wouldn't in the end times.
Wow.

Ah... don't tell fibs now... you said the following in your original post...

Bruno said:
My understanding of an abomination in the Bible, is anything or anyone that is debased and extremely detestable to God. The Antichrist would be considered an abomination:

That's the very idea of those who refuse to admit the written Scripture that reveals the "abomination of desolation" is about an IDOL placed in the Jerusalem temple, as per the Daniel 11:31 event, which is what Lord Jesus was pointing to in His Olivet discourse about the end of this world.