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PinSeeker

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Why do people go off into realms of fantasy about Revelation?
That's a great question. Everybody has an imagination... :)

Revelation 1:1, is given to us so as we will know what God has planned for our future. John 'saw' it all.
Right, well, John tells us that everyone who reads aloud, hears, and keeps what is written in his revelation will be blessed; there is no minimum age requirement or level of intelligence, or anything else mentioned. And everyone means everyone, not just those who might live in the distant future (in relation to John) but also his contemporaries and everyone in between... everyone. I would posit that the general message of Revelation is that God is always in control, and Jesus wins. Revelation is a series of highly symbolic overviews/recountings, of the entire tribulation period, which stretches from Pentecost to Jesus's return.

We also have a lot of prophecy elsewhere in the Bible and when it is all put together, a coherent and logical scenario emerges.
I would certainly agree. Of course though, not to those who have already decided what they want God to do for them.

However; all we really need to know right now, is the next prophesied event will be the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath... This worldwide disaster will mainly affect the Middle East region, but many will die around the world and we will lose our modern infrastructure.
Hmmm. Well, the Lord will certainly come to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity (Psalm 98), but as for this "worldwide disaster in the Middle East region," that seems to me to be a case in point. :)

Grace and peace to you!
 

Ronald Nolette

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What is the Abomination of Desolation? In history, Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the altar of God and then proceeded to kill Israelites and cause desolation to Jerusalem.

That was an example of an abomination and desolation
My understanding of an abomination in the Bible, is anything or anyone that is debased and extremely detestable to God. The Antichrist would be considered an abomination: who he is, his purpose and what he does. What he does is cause desolation, destruction of Gods people, and leaving Jerusalem desolate.


The Christian is now the Temple of the Holy Spirit and so what purpose would a new Temple serve especially when according to Rom. 11, when Jesus returns, He will save a remnant Jewish population and open their eyes? Imagine Jews sacrificing animals once again. It would be the insult to God. But what would be more of an abomination than sacrificing a pig on an altar in a new Temple? Sacrificial killing of Jews and Christians.

Depopulation caused by not only poisonous vaccines, but add to that a collapse of the world economy -- that leads to wars, famine and death.
85% of Israel has received the jab. Many have died from it but the percentage is small. What if the NWO headed by the Antichrist were to first get as many humans in board with this program and then either the vaccine has a destructive accumulative effect or the boosters become the more serious death blow where higher percentages of people die?
Whether you believe it or not, this One World Government sees and is planning a Utopian future world with about 90% less people in it. Since the population has tripled in the last 70 years, the earth will not be able to sustain 24 billion people 70 years from now! They do not believe that the current population can live at the standard of living that the west has. Really only a fraction live at our standard. To eliminate poverty in the world, they must eliminate most of us first.
Would that be an abomination, that causes desolation?
Since much of scripture centers around Jerusalem, it could be that the desolation coming pertains to Israel. Nevertheless, desolation is coming to all nations through pestilence, famine, wars and death.

Well Jesus was more specific than that. First He spoke and made it clear He was speaking of a person.
Second, He would stand in the Holy Place.
Third a temple will be rebuilt. The fact that God records Israel sacrificing again, doe snot mean God accepts those sacrifices.
Fourth: Paul confirms this in Thessalonians when He calls HIm the man of sin .

All you speak of as abominations are just normal courses for a fallen world. During the last 7 years before Jesus returns, 1/2 the worlds population will die. While this may be abominable, it is not the abomination of desolation of Matt. 24, He is a person and not a detestable act.

The 1 word govt. is wrong about hwo many people can sustainably fed on the earth.

Right now we could give everyone on earth a 10'X10' square to sit in and we could fit the whole worlds population in Texas with room left over. That means the rest of the world would be empty. It is politics and not popuylation that causes people to starve.
 
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Davy

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Right, well, John tells us that everyone who reads aloud, hears, and keeps what is written in his revelation will be blessed; there is no minimum age requirement or level of intelligence, or anything else mentioned.

What Apostle John said in Revelation 1:3 reveals that applies only... to those who actually 'understand' Christ's Book of Revelation via reading it and keeping it. I'll put how that is in bold red below...


Rev 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

KJV

I heard a preacher say that anyone who simply reads... Revelation will be blessed. That's NOT what Apostle John meant. One must 'hear the words', meaning with eyes to see, and ears to hear like Jesus would ask His disciples many times. In other words, without The Holy Spirit and help in understanding from God, one can forget understanding Revelation. And that help from God also means having studied all... of His Word with understanding. A new babe in Christ that jumps to reading Revelation thinking they are going to then understand it just isn't going to happen until they study like Apostle Paul said and become a workman in The Word first.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Well Jesus was more specifioc than that. First He spoke and made it clear He was speaking of a person.
Second, He would stand in the Holy Place.
In Matt. 24:15 it is clear he was talking about a person. But what if that reference is historical pertaining to 70 AD.? In Matt. 24, Jesus answers two part question and goes back and forth answering it
Dan. 9:27 says, " on the wing of abominations, he is making desolate, even to the consummation ..." He is making desolate even to the consummation" -can only mean Satan. The time period from 70 AD till our resurrection is over 1900.
Think of it, if Dan. 9:27 was a reference to the GT, practically no time exists between the time the Antichrist enters a temple and our resurrection. That is our consummation. When He is revealed, we are raptured. So "even to the consummation" would be meaningless.
I am not an adherent to the 70th week of Daniel being future
I believe the 70 weeks of years were finite, describing Christ's first coming only.

Third a temple will be rebuilt.
It is a popular view amd you ar welcome to it.
Fourth: Paul confirms this in Thessalonians when He calls HIm the man of sin .
2 Thes. 2:3-10
He does make himself out to be God. He is an Abomination. I just think the only sacrificing going on will be heads getting chopped off, people being killed by wars, pestilence and famine because of him.


All you speak of as abominations are just normal courses for a fallen world. During the last 7 years before Jesus returns, 1/2 the worlds population will die. While this may be abominable, it is not the abomination of desolation of Matt. 24, He is a person and not a detestable act.
Hasn't it always been the act of the person that does the abominable thing? Ex. 8:2; Deut. 7:2
So killing billions of people is less detestible than the AntiChrist? He is detestible because of what he does, causing destruction and desolation.
Well, we will soon find out.
 
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Enoch111

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I am not an adherent to the 70th week of Daniel being future.
You can't have it both ways. If Daniel's 70th week was completed in the past, then we should all be living in the midst of everlasting righteousness (see Dan 9:24). But since that is patently false, your conclusion is also false. It is only in the New Heavens and the New Earth that everlasting righteousness will be established. But that cannot happen until all the judgments described in Revelation have been fulfilled. And they are still in the future. After that many other events must take place.

Messiah was cut off in AD 30. But Daniel's 70th week cannot be divorced from the 3 1/2 year reign of the Antichrist. And since that has not happened, the 70th week is still in the future.
 

Keraz

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Revelation is a series of highly symbolic overviews/recountings, of the entire tribulation period, which stretches from Pentecost to Jesus's return.
Yes: Revelation 1 to 6:11 is about fulfilled events. The rest is yet to happen, commencing with the great reset of Civilization, to a similar degree as He did in the days of Noah.
Well, the Lord will certainly come to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity (Psalm 98), but as for this "worldwide disaster in the Middle East region," that seems to me to be a case in point
Why did you misquote me? I said 'this worldwide disaster will mostly affect the Middle East region'.
Your denial of a prophesied event, vividly described in over 100 Bible Prophesies, is hard to credit.

All must surely realize that the world simply cannot go on as it is for much longer. A dramatic event is required to enable the establishment of a One World Govt, of which the leader will soon show himself to be an Anti-Christ and will perform the AoD in the new Temple.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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You can't have it both ways. If Daniel's 70th week was completed in the past, then we should all be living in the midst of everlasting righteousness (see Dan 9:24). But since that is patently false, your conclusion is also false. It is only in the New Heavens and the New Earth that everlasting righteousness will be established. But that cannot happen until all the judgments described in Revelation have been fulfilled. And they are still in the future. After that many other events must take place.

Messiah was cut off in AD 30. But Daniel's 70th week cannot be divorced from the 3 1/2 year reign of the Antichrist. And since that has not happened, the 70th week is still in the future.

Really? Okay, let's take a look.

"Seventy weeks are determined ...
>God ordains a specific time frame, a prophecy announcing the arrival of Christ, the Savior, the Messiah, whom since the beggining was promised. God is sovereign, He knows the future. Did something happen that changed His mind, something He did not expect - forcing His Hand to change plans and extend, (put a gap in) the last week of the prophecy for 2000 years? NO! He knew exactly what was going to happen! The Messiah came in the last week. The week wasn't completed - didn't have to be. It was accurately stated that He would be cut off<

...concerning thy people and concerning thy holy city

>This was a message TO the Israelites and Jerusalem - not to the world! <

...to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins,
>
For those who believed it was finished, their eternity was sealed in Christ. When Jesus said, "It is finished", that is what He meant. In heaven, outside of time, death was defeated. On earth, death was defeated die believers.<

... and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
> T
he Law was fuffilled. A way for Man was then made available to be reconciled to God.<
... and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
>
Jesus is righteous. He brought his righteousness and imputed it to believers.<
... and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
> in order to, to begin to seal up prophecy. The disciples began that process. The New Testament was written, finished and sealed up.

25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until the Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end thereof shall be with a flood, and until the end of the war desolations are determined.

>
All Historical <

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.

<Jesus brought a New Covenant. He confirmed it throughout His 3 1/2 year ministry, death amd resurrection. He put am end to sacrifice. He was the final sacrifice. The Jews may have blindly cininued, but to God, His Church, it was over.<


...And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
>
Overspreading of abominations upon the Jews and Jerusalem began and continued throughout history. They are the desolate, who will be enlightened at the consummation. This was an allusion to the end times, their future sufferings within the Church Age, not that it was part of some "gap theory". <

Hold onto your gap theory, it's your prerogative!
 

PinSeeker

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Yes: Revelation 1 to 6:11 is about fulfilled events. The rest is yet to happen, commencing with the great reset of Civilization, to a similar degree as He did in the days of Noah.
Disagree.

Why did you misquote me? I said 'this worldwide disaster will mostly affect the Middle East region'. Your denial of a prophesied event, vividly described in over 100 Bible Prophesies, is hard to credit.
An oversight in misquoting you verbatim; I apologize. But, same difference, really. Sounds like we disagree on what is actually prophesied.

All must surely realize that the world simply cannot go on as it is for much longer.
That may be correct, but it may not be. We just don't know. Yes, it could happen at any time, so we must be ready. All we really know is that it will happen "soon," in God's time.

A dramatic event is required to enable the establishment of a One World Govt, of which the leader will soon show himself to be an Anti-Christ and will perform the AoD in the new Temple.
I disagree with all of this. This is very dispensational and pre-millennial.

Grace and peace to you, Keraz.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I think Jesus gave us a clue

"when you see the abomination of desolation STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE.

An abomination of desolation is an idol. or unclean thing that renders a holy place desolate.

It not that they holy place is destroyed (as in 70 AD) it is that it is unclean. And whatever ritual service happens in that holy place (in the case of the temple, sacrifice and burnt offering) has to cease until the holy place can be cleansed.
 
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Nancy

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Actually, Jesus gave us signs to look for that were not prevalent at any other time in history. One key sign was Matthew 24:14. That has just about been fulfilled. And the distress caused by fear of the pestilence, the lockdowns, the mandates and fascism right now _ effecting the whole world _ is a sign that we are being controlled by a One World Government headed by an Antichrist.

For sure brother. We are in the birth pangs now...EVERYTHING is speeding up and becoming more and more intense and closer together...."look up, your redemption draws nigh"!!!
 

Ronald Nolette

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In Matt. 24:15 it is clear he was talking about a person. But what if that reference is historical pertaining to 70 AD.? In Matt. 24, Jesus answers two part question and goes back and forth answering it
Dan. 9:27 says, " on the wing of abominations, he is making desolate, even to the consummation ..." He is making desolate even to the consummation" -can only mean Satan. The time period from 70 AD till our resurrection is over 1900.
Think of it, if Dan. 9:27 was a reference to the GT, practically no time exists between the time the Antichrist enters a temple and our resurrection. That is our consummation. When He is revealed, we are raptured. So "even to the consummation" would be meaningless.
I am not an adherent to the 70th week of Daniel being future
I believe the 70 weeks of years were finite, describing Christ's first coming only.


But it is not! In 760 Ad there was no AOD who entered into the holy place.

and yo0ur time frame is in error because it is an undefined time frame. IOW it could be quick or it could be slow and take a long time. but we know from the rest of Scripture that from the time the AOD enters the temple and declares himself God to Jesus return is 3 1/2 years.

So you are a preterist or partial preterist, which also means you are an allegorist. No one who fits the prince of the people that shall come and destroy the temple made a 7 year covenant with Israel, Jesus himself described the AOD as future, and there was no 7 year covenant made with Israel from Matthew 24 on as well. It takes reinterpreting Scripture to make that so and we have many many books trhat have reinteprreted Scripture to fit a particular doctrine. Why should we believe yours over all the other reinterpreters.
 
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PinSeeker

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What I present is very Biblical and truthful.
Okay, well, please don't take this the wrong way, but a.) I absolutely respect your opinion, and b.) I think we should all avoid making absolute statements about ourselves.

Do not label me as a dipsy or a 'rapture to heaven' believer.
I did not label you in any way. I merely said that what you had said sounded dispensational and pre-millennialist. Perhaps I was mistaken in that, and if so, I apologize. A "dipsy"... never heard that one before... :) But if you are not dispensationalist in your understanding of the Bible and/or do not believe in a "rapture," then... good. :)

Have you looked at my website?
No, I have not looked at your website, but I'll give it a look-see.

Grace and peace to you.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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So you are a preterist or partial preterist, which also means you are an allegorist.

Apparently even you can read just a few posts and then stamp a label on me quickly with false accusations!
I AM NOT PRETERIST OR PARTIAL-PRETERIST! I adhere to a Mid-Trib view.

No one who fits the prince of the people that shall come and destroy the temple made a 7 year covenant with Israel, Jesus himself described the AOD as future, and there was no 7 year covenant made with Israel from Matthew 24 on as well.
I have posted my explanation of Dan. 9:24-27, have a read, Post #89.
Any witnesses present during the seige in70 AD were probably murdered. Maybe Titus marched in and made a mockery of God, seated himself in the Holy of Holies, proving God wasn't there?
Certainly Titus would have been interested/curious to see such a magnificent Temple first before he destroyed it.
A possible scenario:
"HA", Titus uttered to the High Priest and his accompanying soldiers, "There is no God in there, I will prove it to you", as he marched in ... "But wait," he laughs, "Better tie a rope around my waste in case your God kills me when I enter into this Holy of Holies ... This is his dwelling place is it not?". (Of course God hadn't been in that Temple since Christ.) He enters and says, "See, I'm still alive? Ha! And now you, your Pharisees and Saducees will watch as I take apart piece by piece this Temple and not one stone will lay upon another ... and then I will kill you!"
The destruction of Jerusalem began three days prior to the Passover. So many foreign Jews had come to visit but got caught up in the seige. An estimate of 1.1 million Jews died over a period of 5 months (April 14 - Sept 8, 70 AD).
That was many more than has lived there, so it was an abomination that caused desolation of the Jews. >>Considering in modern times involving many countries in WW2, two million died over years from many battles with advanced weaponry; I would say that no one city ever suffered such a loss of life as Jerusalem did!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Apparently even you can read just a few posts and then stamp a label on me quickly with false accusations!
I AM NOT PRETERIST OR PARTIAL-PRETERIST! I adhere to a Mid-Trib view.

If you believe all 70 weeks are accomplished, that puts you in the preterist camp to some measure. that is not me accussing you that is just simle fact.

I have posted my explanation of Dan. 9:24-27, have a read, Post #89.
Any witnesses present during the seige in70 AD were probably murdered. Maybe Titus marched in and made a mockery of God, seated himself in the Holy of Holies, proving God wasn't there?
Certainly Titus would have been interested/curious to see such a magnificent Temple first before he destroyed it.
A possible scenario:
"HA", Titus uttered to the High Priest and his accompanying soldiers, "There is no God in there, I will prove it to you", as he marched in ... "But wait," he laughs, "Better tie a rope around my waste in case your God kills me when I enter into this Holy of Holies ... This is his dwelling place is it not?". (Of course God hadn't been in that Temple since Christ.) He enters and says, "See, I'm still alive? Ha! And now you, your Pharisees and Saducees will watch as I take apart piece by piece this Temple and not one stone will lay upon another ... and then I will kill you!"

so you are creating doctrine based on no witnesses and maybes and possible scenarios???????? Is this what you really want to present as your proof


That was many more than has lived there, so it was an abomination that caused desolation of the Jews. >>Considering in modern times involving many countries in WW2, two million died over years from many battles with advanced weaponry; I would say that no one city ever suffered such a loss of life as Jerusalem did!

Maybe no city has ever suffered as much as Jerusalem, but that is not the abomination of desolation!

The AOD is a person as written many many times in the NT Murders of Jews in Jerusalem is not the AOD standing in the holy place as Jesus said in Matt. 24 and Paul reconfirmed in 1 Thess.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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If you believe all 70 weeks are accomplished, that puts you in the preterist camp to some measure. that is not me accussing you that is just simle fact.
I believe that the book of Revelation chapter 6:1, 2 has begun and and from verse 6:3 through chapter 22:21 is future and almost all taken literally
That qualifies me as a futurist. Stop teying to insult me and misrepresent my view. Shiw me a verse in Revelatuin rhat cirrekates with Dan.9:24? Read the first verse. Did you the specifics?
Who was it written for? "your (Daniel's) holy people"
About what? "your holy city".
And how long did God say? Precisely 70 weeks of years.

so you are creating doctrine based on no witnesses and maybes and possible scenarios???????? Is this what you really want to present as your proof
Not creating doctrine, just refuting doctrine and offereing a plausible interpretation.

Maybe no city has ever suffered as much as Jerusalem, but that is not the abomination of desolation!
So eating shell fish and pigs or sacrificing an animal with a blemish were abominations to God but slaugtering 1 million Jews wasn't? Okay, I'm done.

The AOD is a person
Or was.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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As for 2 Thes. 2:4
What is the Temple of God? We are the Temple of God and so a congregation of any church would be considered a Holy Place/Temple

1 Cor. 3:16, 17, ‘Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.’
`What agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God.’
2 Cor. 6:16
 

Eternally Grateful

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As for 2 Thes. 2:4
What is the Temple of God? We are the Temple of God and so a congregation of any church would be considered a Holy Place/Temple

1 Cor. 3:16, 17, ‘Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.’
`What agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God.’
2 Cor. 6:16
true

but an AOD can not enter us

and No one can see an AOD enter the holy place (matt 24) if it is each believer

there was no AOD in ad 70