A post to an essay on the difficulty with dispensationalist eschatology.

[GRACE ambassador]

@DanielConway
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.
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op: "difficulty with dispensational eschatology"?
Not IF Rightly Divided!:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

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LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

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Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The
Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

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The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet” in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

To be continued...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Part II

(Previously) The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?

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LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious Blood,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.

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Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ ↑

 

[Timtofly]

Two distinct events separate by over a thousand years? How can the first of those two events be considered the last day then? In what sense is it the last day if there's still over 1,000 years of history yet to take place after that? That makes no sense. You are not accepting what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29. You're not allowing more clear scripture like that to help you understand the more difficult scripture contained within the highly symbolic book of Revelation.

Those verses don't state a last day. They state an hour that is coming.

 

[quietthinker]

Well..I’m female so am allowed! 100%!!
Eta: having said that, I have no place debating stuff…it’s not my calling or gifting. So, “100% agree” on very few occasions is probably the most you’ll hear from me in such threads. I’m just gently and slowly learning where people are coming from - no offence meant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those verses don't state a last day. They state an hour that is coming.

How many hours that are coming? The Premil view says two. But, the text only says one.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hey family. Take a look at this for an alternate take on the apocalypse.

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This is a conclusion he made up himself! the bible reports on what will happen and how satan will view himself. Even Paul said Satan is the god of this world! He is a defeated foe . I am a staunch dispy, and in all the circles I fellowship and read, this thought never comes up! He made this up based on whatever.

 

[ewq1938]

This is a conclusion he made up himself! the bible reports on what will happen and how satan will view himself. Even Paul said Satan is the god of this world! He is a defeated foe .

I agree he will be defeated but Paul never said he was a "god" of anything. Only God is the God of this world. That doesn't mean the whole world believes in God. It means God created this world and is God over it so is in control of it and even satan like we saw in Job.

 

[Enoch111]

I agree he will be defeated but Paul never said he was a "god" of anything.

The Bible does say that Satan is the "god" (small g) of the world. Since there are numerous false gods in all the false religions, Satan is the chief of them all. And additionally there have always been Satanists (Satan worshippers) and they are still around. Indeed they are claiming that abortion is a Satanist ritual!

 

[ewq1938]

The Bible does say that Satan is the "god" (small g) of the world.

Actually the manuscripts all are capitals. Small letters were invented much later. The translator believed Paul was speaking of satan but I can show this is speaking of God.

Other than the spurious small g, why do you think the verse is speaking about satan?

 

[Enoch111]

Other than the spurious small g, why do you think the verse is speaking about satan?

Why don't you think that the verse is speaking about Satan? But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Cor 4:3,4)

What is this verse teaching? That the Adversary of God and man -- the devil -- blinds the minds of people who do not initially believe the Gospel, so that they may be prevented from being saved. Satan does not want anyone to be saved. And here he is called "the god of this world" (while in other passages he is called "the Wicked One"). And we know from another Scripture what Satan does when the Gospel is preached in order to prevent people from being saved: When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the Wicked One, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. (Mt 13:19)

Sometimes the Gospel is neither understood nor believed initially. So Satan tries to make sure that the seed of the Gospel which was sown will find no root. But God is greater, and Satan does not always succeed in this. Many people will hear the Gospel several times before they are saved, and the Holy Spirit works in their hearts each time to prevent the scheming of Satan.

 

[ewq1938]

Why don't you think that the verse is speaking about Satan? But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Cor 4:3,4)

What is this verse teaching? That the Adversary of God and man -- the devil -- blinds the minds of people who do not initially believe the Gospel, so that they may be prevented from being saved. Satan does not want anyone to be saved.

Did you know there is scripture where God blinds people from being saved?

Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He (God) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

The HE here is God and this is very similar language. God blinded them so they could not convert and be healed! Isn't that what the other verse is saying? Also note that in both scriptures the people being blinded didn't believe prior to the blinding:

"blinded the minds of them which believe not"
"Therefore they could not believe" "He (God) hath blinded their eyes"

Same God doing the blinding and same people being blinded.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree he will be defeated but Paul never said he was a "god" of anything. Only God is the God of this world. That doesn't mean the whole world believes in God. It means God created this world and is God over it so is in control of it and even satan like we saw in Job.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Obey JESUS]

Hey family. Take a look at this for an alternate take on the apocalypse.

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You could sum this up with "premills want satan to be a deity in the end times"


The old man (fallen flesh) gets killed if you are not in the beast image, mystery solved! Rev 13:15 "as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

 

[Zao is life]

I agree he will be defeated but Paul never said he was a "god" of anything. Only God is the God of this world. That doesn't mean the whole world believes in God. It means God created this world and is God over it so is in control of it and even satan like we saw in Job.

Thank you for the correction. I remember now someone bringing this up a couple of years ago. Could have been you. Just wish you had corrected it the first time I listed it in your thread 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 as one of the scriptures that contradict the Satan is currently bound theory. Even so, there are enough others.

Makes me want to go and delete those verses from each post I made where I included them!

 

[Zao is life]

Actually the manuscripts all are capitals. Small letters were invented much later. The translator believed Paul was speaking of satan but I can show this is speaking of God.

Other than the spurious small g, why do you think the verse is speaking about satan?

A couple of years ago I picked up a continuation in the Greek New Testament of the Old Testament's tradition of replacing the name of God with "the LORD", where the Greek New Testament does the same with "ho theos" ("the god") (and that's just from checking the Greek words used each time, not because I'm any Greek expert).

Unless 2 Corinthians 4:4 is the only exception, every verse in the New Testament where "the god" (ho theos) is found, the context shows that the verse is speaking of God the Father (not Christ). The Greek never uses ho theos ("the god") when it's speaking of Jesus - it only uses theos.

There are some verses where theos is not preceded by the definite article, but nevertheless the context of the verse shows it's speaking of the Father. It's like the Old Testament where you sometimes find the word "God", but the context shows that it's speaking of the LORD.

 

[Davy]

Not at all. One simply has to exegete the passage properly in light of all the other passages on the Rapture. No extra-biblical sources whatsoever.

Oh yes there were... extra-Biblical sources involved with the pre-trib rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain.

One should read The Rapture Plot by Christian researcher Dave MacPherson. He has written some well documented works about the history of the pre-trib rapture theory.

For 1800 years, the Christian Church believed in the post-tribulational coming by Christ and gathering of the Church. Not until the 1830's did the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture theory appear and first taught in a Christian Church, in Great Britain by John Nelson Darby. And he admitted influence from the Edward Irving church, but because of some of the strange manifestations going on there, he left that church, he admitted. And at first Darby taught the idea of Jesus coming 'in secret' when preaching the pre-trib rapture theory. Since then, pre-trib rapture scholars have gotten away from that idea, and even deny that Darby ever taught the idea of a secret rapture. There have been other changes to the doctrine since Darby also, which reveals what? An ever-changing doctrine is proof of a false leaven doctrine devised by men.

https://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Plot-David-MacPherson/dp/0962522058

 

[Zao is life]

Well quite evidently you have not seen the HUGE DIFFERENCES between the Rapture and the Second Coming. The passage quoted is strictly about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and Darby is irrelevant. It was Christ who taught about this first.

Referring to the judgement of God that is prophesied to come upon the world (and which is produced by His wrath) as "the great tribulation" is a complete misnomer in my opinion, because there are only two New Testament references to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.

2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

There are no other New Testament mentions of tribulation as the experience of those who are not Christians.

Here is the list of New Testament verses talking about the persecution and tribulation of Jesus, the apostles, and Christians:-

Persecution: Of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19, 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14

Great Tribulation: Mentioned only three times in the New Testament and each time it's the experience of Christians:

Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14; 'Olivet Discourse': Matthew 24:21 *

* Luke uses the words great distress and wrath in Luke 21:23 (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

It was the wrath of God coming upon the people when Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed by the Roman armies:

There have been various periods of both tribulation and wrath across history.

THE BIBLE ON:

1. Wrath.
2. Judgment.
3. Universal Judgment.
4. Tribulation.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.
6. Being kept from the hour of temptation/trial.

WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

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Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

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UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION

(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues (a.k.a bowls of wrath) will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshipped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

GREAT TRIBULATION
(Spoken about only three times in the New Testament):-

Revelation 7:13-14 " And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 2:21 "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds.

Matthew 24:21-22 "for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9 and Matthew 13:21):-

Matthew 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to thlîpsis (tribulation) and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. And then many will skandalízō, and will betray one another, and will hate one another."

Matthew 13:21 "But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when thlîpsis (tribulation) or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately skandalízō."

4624 σκανδαλίζω skandalízō
to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend.

In the 'Olivet Discourse', Matthew 24:9-14 talks about the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus (the elect). Matthew 24:15-22 tells the disciples that when they therefore see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, they should flee Judea, because this will be a time of great tribulation, but the days will be shortened for the elect's sake. Matthew 24:23-24 warns that false Christs and false prophets will appear showing great signs and wonders, so much so that if possible, they would deceive even the elect. This is the second time the appearance of false prophets is mentioned. The first time is in Matthew 24:11.

Matthew 24:29-31 tells us of Christ sending His angels to gather His elect immediately after the tribulation of those days.

So the elect are present from the beginning of the (great) tribulation, to the end, and it is indeed the elect who are experiencing the (great) tribulation. It ends with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and Matthew 24:29-31, etc.

 

[Enoch111]

There are no other New Testament mentions of tribulation as the experience of those who are not Christians.

That is incorrect. See the Olivet Discourse in the Synoptic Gospels, and Revelation 7. The Greek in Revelation 7 is literally "the Tribulation, the Great" (tes Thlipseos tes Megales) or idiomatically the Great Tribulation. And since Christ Himself said that it would be a period of time such as has never been, nor ever will be, that should settle the matter.

 

[Enoch111]

Oh yes there were... extra-Biblical sources involved with the pre-trib rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain.

Just ignore all the propaganda and all the talk about extra-biblical sources. Just focus on what is actually written in the Word of God, since Christians do not depend on extra-biblical sources. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not a "theory" since Christ and the apostles taught it as FACT.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just ignore all the propaganda and all the talk about extra-biblical sources. Just focus on what is actually written in the Word of God, since Christians do not depend on extra-biblical sources. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not a "theory" since Christ and the apostles taught it as FACT.

Neither Jesus nor Paul ever taught that theory. Not even close.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:6. Both passages refer to Christ's second coming and both indicate that wrath will come down on unbelievers while believers are gathered together. The pre-trib rapture theory has no scriptural support whatsoever.