How can this be about the Rapture since it is about the Second Coming? TWO ENTIRELY DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT EVENTS. Do you even know who these "elect" are, since Christ sends angels to gather them (which is not the case at the Rapture)?
A post to an essay on the difficulty with dispensationalist eschatology.
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ewq1938
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They did not teach it. They taught post-trib.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.
It's that simple.
Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(second coming reference): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture ie: a gathering)
Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.
ewq1938
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They are two different events but the rapture happens when Christ is at the clouds of the Earth during the second coming. It's second coming then resurrection then the rapture, all seconds within each other. You are wrong to think a long period of time is inbetween the rapture and the second coming. The second coming is first, not the rapture. Your belief isn't found anywhere in the bible but I just posted two passages that are post-trib.
Timtofly
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Actually pre-mill is not really about resurrections but the Second Coming. I have already pointed out the Cross was that hour, and Lazarus pointed out that hour has come prior to the Cross. But evidently Lazarus was not raised from the grave, and Jesus never said: John 11:43
"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth."
I guess Amil go out of their way to refute this verse as Jesus having no resurrection power at all. Obviously the next verse never happened either:
"And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."
Are Amil as obstinate as these:
"If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."
Guess what? They crucified Jesus and then the Romans did exactly that: took away both their place and their nation. Some think that if they had not crucified Jesus, Jesus would have reigned and actually subjected the Romans.
Obviously Amil reject such a physical reign on earth and fight against Jesus being Prince as well as Messiah. God promised Israel a Prince. Substitution of only invisibly reigning from heaven is not the fulfillment of that promise. The fulness of the Gentiles is not the fulfillment of that promise. Until it actually happens that promise is still future. Believe it or not a Second Coming is the very definition of Messiah on earth as Prince. Second meaning another time equal to the first time. Coming means a definite physical return. Intra coming "filler time" is not the same thing as a post coming reality. Amil can make up their virtual reality reasonings all they like, but it is still virtual and not the real thing because the real thing is only when Jesus is physically on the earth.
And nothing above contradicts the whole fulness of the Gentiles reality of the church age, this in between filler time. The church is the kingdom without observation. The church is everything Amil point out about the actual Millennium. I would agree the church is now and will not be part of the Millennium at all, but Amil cannot agree that Israel will enjoy their promised Kingdom.
They teach God replaced that promise and literally changed His mind. It is either that or God deceived those in the OT and exchanged all those promises with a totally different plan out of retaliation because of the crucifixion.
Amil literally seem to dictate what God can or cannot do. Then they claim pre-mil are ridiculous because certainly John was not talking about that unfulfilled promise in a book written to the church. Certainly Revelation 20 cannot be about Israel. Camp of the saints, beloved city, certainly not anything at all remotely similar to Israel or Jerusalem, we Amil forbid such nonsense. "We have no faith, we want specific and detailed descriptions or we will not accept God's Word as written." "We want it spelled out in detail or we will not accept it." "Revelation is too symbolic and figurative, who can know what it is really saying".
So pre-mil are then wrong, because they have no proof? Amil are wrong, because they reject the only proof given. The point about resurrections is just one platform of Amil they think makes them superior to alledged "false pre-mil beliefs". There are more than one single resurrection, no matter how much Amil mis-interpret verses that clearly state more than one. All Amil can do is deny, deny, deny: "God surely cannot have a future Millennium, where Israel is ruled by Jesus. This rule being over all the nations."
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Timtofly
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Are you saying that you yourself only go by the orthodoxy of the church instead of God's Word?
Telling other people what they think includes your own thoughts. You have to also claim you are solely going by church teachings as you yourself used them in your defense.
Scripture says judge not lest ye be judged. You condemn others then you are guilty of the same condemnation. You cannot step out of reality and separate yourself from the argument you make.
God made that physically impossible. If you point in judgment one finger towards another human there are 3 fingers pointing back at you. If you extend all your fingers in accusation, it is pointless, that is literally extending your hand as if to help some one. It is impossible for a gesture to have two meanings at the same time.
Davy
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I've done that too, I have focused on The Word of God AS WRITTEN, but YOU DENY The Word of God about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. I've shown what Jesus said many times from Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 where He showed He comes AFTER... the tribulation of those days to gather His saints.
You simply are BLINDED, and I hope it is not by your own choice, for then you won't have any excuse for 'denying' the written Word of God about it.
Davy
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Your VAIN ATTEMPT TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH shows how the devil has taken over your spirit. You are not of Christ. You are a FAKE come here to devise chaos and slander against Christ Jesus! Go back home to your beloved JUDAISM. It is not welcome here.
How can He come AFTER the Tribulation of those days FOR His saints, when He actually comes WITH His saints at that time? Do you see the absurdity?
ewq1938
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Yes, I see yours. He comes with his resurrected saints to meet with his changed and raptured saints. The saints he comes with is huge while the raptured saints are a small group.
Timtofly
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You deny saying this:
You claim orthodoxy as your defense. They also believed they were living in great Tribulation. Tribulation from the apostate church. Both sides called the other side apostate. Also there was no defined eschatology, because it was all future for 1800 years.
Orthodoxy: authorized or generally accepted theory, doctrine, or practice.
Davy
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That idea that Jesus comes with His saints is from man's false pre-trib rapture theory, and you still did not include all of that false idea. They wrongly teach that Jesus comes PRIOR to the great tribulation to gather His Church, and then returns WITH the Church at the 2nd coming. That's what the false pre-trib rapture theory of man teaches, and YOU WELL KNOW IT.
The PROBLEM with that above idea though, is that Jesus emphatically showed HIS COMING is AFTER... the tribulation of those days to gather His Church. That specifically is what those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures say.
And that idea in those Scriptures Lord Jesus gave, is about the day of His 2nd coming to END the "great tribulation". This is even what Apostle Paul taught about the day of Christ's future coming and gathering of the Church per 2 Thessalonians 2!
And NOT ONLY that, but the Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 verses Jesus gave ALIGN PERFECTLY with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church!
In 1 Thessalonians 4, Apostle Paul taught the gathering of the Church involves TWO GROUPS of saints from TWO DIFFERENT LOCATIONS being gathered:
1. the "them which are asleep" -- Paul said Jesus will bring those WITH HIM WHEN HE COMES. And Paul said those alive SHALL NOT PRECEDE those saints that are asleep in Jesus. (Because they are already there, which is HOW Jesus brings them with Him.)
2. the "caught up" -- those saints Paul said that are still alive on earth when Jesus comes.
Where... did Apostle Paul get that teaching from about the day of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church? Directly from Lord Jesus it is apparent, because Jesus gave that exact method of gathering the two groups of saints in those Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 verses.
In the Matthew 24 version, the angels gather the saints 'from one end of heaven to the other', which is about the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him. In the Mark 13 version, it is about the gathering of the saints 'from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven', i.e., those that are "caught up" to Jesus and the saints He brings with Him.
Davy
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Therefore truly, I find that many... on the false pre-trib rapture theory, don't even understand 1 Thessalonians 4 by Apostle Paul!
The idea of the 'rapture', even though that word is not in the Greek New Testament but comes from the Latin, even that rapture idea is taught by Pre-trib OMITS the gathering of the 'asleep' saints already with Jesus, that Paul said Jesus will bring WITH HIM WHEN HE COMES!
Those "caught up" (Greek harpazo) that Paul taught is ONLY about the saints still ALIVE ON EARTH on the day of Jesus' coming! That is where the idea of the 'rapture' comes from. But what about the ASLEEP SAINTS RESURRECTED ON THAT DAY THAT JESUS BRINGS WITH HIM????
I'll tell you WHY the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors often leave those (the asleep saints) out when pushing their pre-trib rapture theory; it is because the asleep saints return WITH Jesus ONLY ON THE DAY OF THE RESURRECTION AT THE END OF THIS WORLD! That means the RESURRECTION MUST HAPPEN FIRST for those 'asleep' saints to be gathered by Jesus.
And just WHEN does God's Word teach the RESURRECTION IS? On the LAST DAY of this world. So the gathering of the 'asleep' saints is pointing DIRECTLY to Jesus' coming on the LAST DAY of this world, and NOT PRIOR to the "great tribulation". That's why the pre-trib school often omits teaching the 1 Thessalonians 4 detail about their gathering by their being resurrected to Heaven with Jesus then bringing them with Him. Thus those are NOT RAPTURED. It is the saints still ALIVE ON EARTH that are the Church that is RAPTURED, and thus changed at the twinkling of an eye per 1 Corinthians 15.
Davy
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How can you know what I say, you don't even read my posts most of the time?
And your previous post #45 was nothing to balderdash, trying to put words in my mouth with asking stupid trap questions.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
op: difficulty with dispensational eschatology?
None that I have found; God IS a Dispensationalist! HIS Word!!:
God Committed/Given Today's Dispensation Of
The Gospel Of GRACE To HIS apostle, Paul!:
1) 1Co_9:17 "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if
against my will, A Dispensation of The Gospel Is Committed unto me."
2) Eph_3:2 "If ye have heard of The Dispensation Of The GRACE Of
God Which Is Given me to you-ward:"
3)
Col_1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to The Dispensation
Of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"
Future Dispensation Of God!:
Not difficult at all, Correct?
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
GRACE And Peace! The apostle of GRACE (2 Min With The BIBLE)
None that I have found; God IS a Dispensationalist! HIS Word!!:
God Committed/Given Today's Dispensation Of
The Gospel Of GRACE To HIS apostle, Paul!:
1) 1Co_9:17 "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if
against my will, A Dispensation of The Gospel Is Committed unto me."
2) Eph_3:2 "If ye have heard of The Dispensation Of The GRACE Of
God Which Is Given me to you-ward:"
3)
Col_1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to The Dispensation
Of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"
Future Dispensation Of God!:
Eph_1:10 "That in The Dispensation Of The Fulness Of Times He
might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are
in heaven (Body Of Christ), and which are on earth (Israel);
even In Him:"
might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are
in heaven (Body Of Christ), and which are on earth (Israel);
even In Him:"
Not difficult at all, Correct?
Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
GRACE And Peace! The apostle of GRACE (2 Min With The BIBLE)
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