A post to an essay on the difficulty with dispensationalist eschatology.

[DanielConway]

Hey family. Take a look at this for an alternate take on the apocalypse.

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[GISMYS_7]

Hey family. Take a look at this for an alternate take on the apocalypse.

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Read the Bible and believe it not the ideas and opinions of little men!!

 

[Enoch111]

A post to an essay on the difficulty with dispensationalist eschatology

There is no "difficulty" with dispensationalist eschatology. So give us a specific example.

 

[Truth7t7]

There is no "difficulty" with dispensationalist eschatology. So give us a specific example.

Darby's claim that a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven, is seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 below "A Lie"

That seen below is nothing more than the second coming of Jesus Christ and the last day resurrection, no pre-trib rapture is seen as dispensationalism falsely claims

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Dispensational Theology is a tool that men use with the Bible and it causes scriptures to be perverted and made void from their original purpose.

“if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.” (Exodus 20:25)

 

[Enoch111]

That seen below is nothing more than the second coming of Jesus Christ and the last day resurrection, no pre-trib rapture is seen as dispensationalism falsely claims

Well quite evidently you have not seen the HUGE DIFFERENCES between the Rapture and the Second Coming. The passage quoted is strictly about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and Darby is irrelevant. It was Christ who taught about this first.

 

[Goldie75]

Well quite evidently you have not seen the HUGE DIFFERENCES between the Rapture and the Second Coming. The passage quoted is strictly about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and Darby is irrelevant. It was Christ who taught about this first.

100% agree.

 

[bbyrd009]

100% agree.

ah, 100%; that concept that a man should not be allowed to utter, imo.
“Always, never, for sure, no doubt, impossible” etc
lol

 

[Goldie75]

ah, 100%; that concept that a man should not be allowed to utter, imo.
“Always, never, for sure, no doubt, impossible” etc
lol

Well..I’m female so am allowed! 100%!!
Eta: having said that, I have no place debating stuff…it’s not my calling or gifting. So, “100% agree” on very few occasions is probably the most you’ll hear from me in such threads. I’m just gently and slowly learning where people are coming from - no offence meant.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The passage quoted is strictly about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

You only arrive at this conclusion after you are taught it from extra biblical sources (with all its cunning fair speeches and great swelling words of vanity).

In the Bible we are told that we are waiting for the coming of Christ (not a secret rapture):

“So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:7)

He comes from heaven:

“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” (1 Thessalonians 1:10)

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” (Revelation 19:11)

Christ comes after the tribulation:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (Revelation 19:11): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds [parallels1 Thessalonians 4:15-17], from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:29-31)

The Antichrist (that Wicked) is here when Christ comes:

“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:8-10)

Then after the saints go up to meet the Lord and the heavenly armies in the clouds, they follow him back down to rule with him after these events:

“And the armies which were in heaven followed [Christ] upon white horses …And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him… These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: …And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”
(Revelation 19:14-20:5)

And This scripture, “the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished”, that’s everyone who died before the Antichrist appears (saved and lost; sleeping in the dust - 1 Thessalonians 4:14; Daniel 12:2). These shall appear here after Satan gets loosed from 1,000 year lockdown and gets thrown into the lake of fire:

“all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29)

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books (plural), according to their works.” (Revelation 20:11-12)

 

[Enoch111]

You only arrive at this conclusion after you are taught it from extra biblical sources

Not at all. One simply has to exegete the passage properly in light of all the other passages on the Rapture. No extra-biblical sources whatsoever.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well quite evidently you have not seen the HUGE DIFFERENCES between the Rapture and the Second Coming. The passage quoted is strictly about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and Darby is irrelevant. It was Christ who taught about this first.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Enoch111]

THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION

The "last day" is a period of time which extends well beyond 1,000 years. When you recall that a thousand years in the sight of God are equivalent to one day, you will learn to interpret the Bible properly. So that entire post of yours is nonsense.

 

[ScottA]

If you want to know the truth according to God--start afresh leaving behind all that you have learned that agrees with men's worldly logic and timing.

God is extra worldly. He translated His extra worldly reality into worldly terms--because He was speaking to children. Stop making a doctrine out of it as if His reality and His childish explanation are the same. They are not.

Such events, being of God, are not even on a timeline--God is not on a timeline, nor is His truth. Don't be so foolish. Even in the scriptures the year of the Lord was reduced to the day of the Lord, then His hour--things that occur in the twinkling of an eye...meaning, immeasurably timeless.

Get out of the weeds.

 

[Truth7t7]

The "last day" is a period of time which extends well beyond 1,000 years. When you recall that a thousand years in the sight of God are equivalent to one day, you will learn to interpret the Bible properly. So that entire post of yours is nonsense.

The teaching of a pre-trib rapture is contrary to scripture, bend, twist, and tear, at scripture in desperate attempts to validate the claim made, that's comparable to Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy being seen in scripture

Not only is the second coming used in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 to falsely represent a pre-trib rapture, but now we have a 1,000 year (Last Day) resurrection and final judgement, Real Big Smiles!

John 12:48 Your eschatology now has a 1,000 year last day judgement "Wrong"

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 6:39-40 Your eschatology now has a 1,000 year last day resurrection "Wrong" scripture teaches the event takes place in the "twinkling of an eye"

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

God's word clearly describes the "Last Day" as the day of the Lord, when the heavens and earth are dissolved by fire, it comes quickly like a thief in the night

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Not at all. One simply has to exegete the passage properly in light of all the other passages on the Rapture. No extra-biblical sources whatsoever.

Well @Enoch111 I haven’t picked up so much as an hint of a pre-tribulation rapture. I read the Bible quite frequently (4 times last year).

Ever since my early days in the faith when I began to read the scriptures I would encounter other Christians who attempted to indoctrinate me with Dispensationalism. They would always point me to extra biblical sources. I remember being repelled by those weird illustrations that Dispensationalist seem to love.

It was contrary to my senses and I refused to get pulled in by it. Because honestly, it is very enticing to the curious carnal mind.

But when I felt mature enough from countless hours and days of Bible reading I decided to hear what Dispensationalism teaches and no surprise it just totally rearranges Bible doctrines and prophesies and is a breeder of other false doctrines…

Christians need to stay in the Bible alone and kill all the outside noise!

“Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers” (Titus 1:9-10)

 

[farouk]

Well..I’m female so am allowed! 100%!!
Eta: having said that, I have no place debating stuff…it’s not my calling or gifting. So, “100% agree” on very few occasions is probably the most you’ll hear from me in such threads. I’m just gently and slowly learning where people are coming from - no offence meant.

@Goldie75 Good to see you contribute on the forums....

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The "last day" is a period of time which extends well beyond 1,000 years. When you recall that a thousand years in the sight of God are equivalent to one day, you will learn to interpret the Bible properly. So that entire post of yours is nonsense.

Say what now?

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

You're trying to tell me that Jesus was talking about raising people from the dead over the course of "well beyond 1,000 years"? Come on. That's nonsense. The last day is just that. The last 24 hour day in history. Jesus taught in John 5:28-29 that the dead will all be resurrected on the same day, not over a time period of "well beyond 1,000 years". Not only will the dead be resurrected on that day, but the judgment will occur on that day as well:

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Again, do you think Jesus was talking about judging people over the course of "well beyond 1,000 years here"? No way. It will occur on the day He returns, which will be on the last 24 hour day in history. Matthew 25:31-46 depicts everyone being judged at the same time, not over the course of "well beyond 1,000 years".

 

[Enoch111]

You're trying to tell me that Jesus was talking about raising people from the dead over the course of "well beyond 1,000 years"? Come on. That's nonsense. The last day is just that.

"The last day" includes both the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. The resurrection of the Tribulation Saints is separated from the resurrection of the unsaved by one thousand years. And prior to that the main Resurrection/Rapture occurs at least seven year before the Millennium. So you do the math. This is all included in "the Last Day" -- a metaphor for a period of time, not a 24 hour day. This is not about "over the course" but distinct events separated by over 1,000 years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"The last day" includes both the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. The resurrection of the Tribulation Saints is separated from the resurrection of the unsaved by one thousand years. And prior to that the main Resurrection/Rapture occurs at least seven year before the Millennium. So you do the math. This is all included in "the Last Day" -- a metaphor for a period of time, not a 24 hour day. This is not about "over the course" but distinct events separated by over 1,000 years.

Two distinct events separate by over a thousand years? How can the first of those two events be considered the last day then? In what sense is it the last day if there's still over 1,000 years of history yet to take place after that? That makes no sense. You are not accepting what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29. You're not allowing more clear scripture like that to help you understand the more difficult scripture contained within the highly symbolic book of Revelation.