A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Jack]

The Bible means what it says, not what Kingdom Hall says it means. Jesus is God the Creator and Hell fire is everlasting.

 

[amigo de christo]

@amigo de christo

You know what a simile is right?

18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven Lk 10:18.

What adversary do you think he was referring to Amigo?

Your lens of how you are seeing things is a bit off .
Allow some words of explanation .
When JESUS said I saw SATAN FALL , HE MEANT SATAN .
BUT WHY DID HE REMIND HIS DESCIPLES OF THIS .
WHAT CAUSED SATAN TO FALL. See satan is real . BUT what caused HIS DOWN FALL
is the same thing that causes the downfall of man too .
PRIDE pardner . It was pride .
Now you are messing things up . Cause you go about trying to make everything into a simile .
And you will speak certain truths to try and make it seem to be true .
For example i bet you were chomping at the bit
to try and explain to me THAT JESUS was not actually talking about An entity when HE said satan
but rather he was just talking about the pridefulness of the human conditoin .
DEAD WRONG pardner . THOUGH PRIDE was in fact the reason JESUS DID REMIND THEM .
BUT satan is real . HE FELL . DUE TO PRIDE . Just like man is real and he too FALLS due to pride .
Now go and learn that my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

Ah right...so you refuse to "handle the Word"...interesting...which means you don't believe God has hidden his wisdom.

No he just dont choose to MISHANDLE the word . Like some or i should say many do .
Satan is real . Just as man is real , So many try to similaze things unto their own destruction .

 

[marks]

@amigo de christo

You know what a simile is right?

18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven Lk 10:18.

What adversary do you think he was referring to Amigo?

I'm just wondering if I want to get into this . . . it's a slow day . . . Jesus spoke of Satan as a person. Prove he's not.

Matthew wrote the following narrative passage. Do you believe this is accurate?

Matthew 4:1-11 KJV
1) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2) And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3) And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8) Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9) And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11) Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

I'm not interested in poor manners or personal insults, anything like that will end the discussion.

Who was it that tempted Jesus in the wilderness?

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Your lens of how you are seeing things is a bit off .
Allow some words of explanation .
When JESUS said I saw SATAN FALL , HE MEANT SATAN .
BUT WHY DID HE REMIND HIS DESCIPLES OF THIS .
WHAT CAUSED SATAN TO FALL. See satan is real . BUT what caused HIS DOWN FALL
is the same thing that causes the downfall of man too .
PRIDE pardner . It was pride .
Now you are messing things up . Cause you go about trying to make everything into a simile .
And you will speak certain truths to try and make it seem to be true .
For example i bet you were chomping at the bit
to try and explain to me THAT JESUS was not actually talking about An entity when HE said satan
but rather he was just talking about the pridefulness of the human conditoin .
DEAD WRONG pardner . THOUGH PRIDE was in fact the reason JESUS DID REMIND THEM .
BUT satan is real . HE FELL . DUE TO PRIDE . Just like man is real and he too FALLS due to pride .
Now go and learn that my friend .

You dont have any context here Amigo...all the Christian commentaries would disagree with you.
Try and read the text leading up to the accout to work out which adversary Jesus was speaking of.
It's there
F2F

 

[face2face]

Your lens of how you are seeing things is a bit off .
Allow some words of explanation .
When JESUS said I saw SATAN FALL , HE MEANT SATAN .
BUT WHY DID HE REMIND HIS DESCIPLES OF THIS .
WHAT CAUSED SATAN TO FALL. See satan is real . BUT what caused HIS DOWN FALL
is the same thing that causes the downfall of man too .
PRIDE pardner . It was pride .
Now you are messing things up . Cause you go about trying to make everything into a simile .
And you will speak certain truths to try and make it seem to be true .
For example i bet you were chomping at the bit
to try and explain to me THAT JESUS was not actually talking about An entity when HE said satan
but rather he was just talking about the pridefulness of the human conditoin .
DEAD WRONG pardner . THOUGH PRIDE was in fact the reason JESUS DID REMIND THEM .
BUT satan is real . HE FELL . DUE TO PRIDE . Just like man is real and he too FALLS due to pride .
Now go and learn that my friend .

Less of your words and more of the Scripture please.
Also, you didn't answer if you knew what a simile was?
Fall "like" lightning!
Explain the metaphor!
Who were "and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you" in Christs ministry? Lk 10:19.
Keep looking you will find the adversary.
F2F

 

[face2face]

I'm just wondering if I want to get into this . . . it's a slow day . . . Jesus spoke of Satan as a person. Prove he's not.

Matthew wrote the following narrative passage. Do you believe this is accurate?

Matthew 4:1-11 KJV
1) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2) And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3) And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6) And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8) Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9) And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11) Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

I'm not interested in poor manners or personal insults, anything like that will end the discussion.

Who was it that tempted Jesus in the wilderness?

Much love!

Scholars have come to understand the adversary could be a number of possibilities.

1. Christ's own carnal mind (i.e not my will but thine be down)
2. Christ was being tempted of the High Priest or representatives in the same way as John the Baptist.
3. An angel of God was sent to test him
4. A rebel angel

No. 1 speaks to Hebrew 4:15 and many other verses which speak to Christ having to overcome our nature (most plausible in my opinion)
No. 2 oddly enough can be proven Scripturally as the Sanhedrin were looking for the Messiah and were frightened of losing their power and influence.
No. 3 Possible but no Scriptural example to lean on
No. 4. For many many reasons this one is impossible as angels can't sin and should such an angel do so the wages of sin is death as it is for us. God would be unjust not to sentence such a being to death - however divine nature cannot sin only flesh and blood. In fact, the angels forcing the first pair out of the Garden teaches you sin and immortality dont mix!

F2F

 

[marks]

Scholars have come to understand the adversary could be a number of possibilities.

1. Christ's own carnal mind (i.e not my will but thine be down)
2. Christ was being tempted of the High Priest or representatives in the same way as John the Baptist.
3. An angel of God was sent to test him
4. A rebel angel

No. 1 speaks to Hebrew 4:15 and many other verses which speak to Christ having to overcome our nature (most plausible in my opinion)
No. 2 oddly enough can be proven Scripturally as the Sanhedrin were looking for the Messiah and were frightened of losing their power and influence.
No. 3 Possible but no Scriptural example to lean on
No. 4. For many many reasons this one is impossible as angels can't sin and should such an angel do so the wages of sin is death as it is for us. God would be unjust not to sentence such a being to death - however divine nature cannot sin only flesh and blood. In fact, the angels forcing the first pair out of the Garden teaches you sin and immortality dont mix!

F2F

What do you think? Who was it? You wrote #1 was most plausible, does this mean you don't have a firm opinion? But you know it wasn't some "devil", named Satan, Adversary?

And do you think Matthew's narrative is accurate?

Your answer leaves me with more questions. BTW I'm only online for another hour or so, fwiw.

I'm not wanting to discuss all the things some think this could mean, only, what do you think it means?

I begin with this passage as a very straightfoward narrative.

Matthew 4:10-11 KJV
10) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11) Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

He left himself? That doesn't seem like what this is telling us.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

@Jack @amigo de christo @marks

A simlie is a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphaticor vivid (e.g. as brave as a lion ). the adversary fall like lightening!

And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Luke 10:18

Here are some issues for you all to consider:

It has been argued that Satan was cast out of heaven prior to the events of Genesis 1-3, or that he was cast our of heaven in 1914 as the
J.W.'s teach ( @Aunty Jane @Keiw would need to confirm if they still believe this????) the problem with this passage is neither can be posisble as this is said to have happened around A.D. 30.

The other issue is it doesnt say the Satan was in heaven or that he fell from heaven. Jesus is not saying Satan fell from Heaven but makes a comparrison using a simile "as". The simile is drawing your attention to the swiftness of the fall of Satan is as lightning falling from heaven.

Of course you still need to identify the true nature of what fell like lightening? The success of the seventy were able to overcome the enemy which is clear from the record which is the context is the curing of illnesses (demons)

Their faith was such that they cured many people and had success over the terrilble nature of the flesh in all its weaknesses. Christ compared it to lightning falling from heaven. Despite this victory over the powers of sin and its effect ie. disease. Jesus instructs his disciples to rejoice (Luke 10:20).

You all really need to read the chapters leading up to this event to fully understand why Jesus was so full of joy!

Hope that helps
F2F

 

[marks]

10) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11) Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

A simlie is a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphaticor vivid (e.g. as brave as a lion ). the adversary fall like lightening!

I'm going to take things one at a time. Once you answer regarding Matthew's account of Jesus' temptation, we can dig into this one.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

What do you think? Who was it? You wrote #1 was most plausible, does this mean you don't have a firm opinion? But you know it wasn't some "devil", named Satan, Adversary?

I think it's written in such a way as it allows for those whose minds are easily persuaded with fanciful notions but as to the it's true meaning...No 1 & No.2 make the most sense.

And do you think Matthew's narrative is accurate?

Yes.

Your answer leaves me with more questions. BTW I'm only online for another hour or so, fwiw.

No problem....very few Christians like to challenge their understanding of this subject which is why so many are decieved. I just finished a discussion with aunty Jane and she could not defend her beliefs at all and walked away. There is much at stake with this subject!

Much love!

Likewise

 

[marks]

1. Christ's own carnal mind (i.e not my will but thine be down)

Are you saying here that Jesus had a "carnal mind" that desired evil?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think it's written in such a way as it allows for those whose minds are easily persuaded with fanciful notions but as to the it's true meaning...No 1 & No.2 make the most sense.

OK, I understand. Thank you for being honest with me.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

@marks

11) Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Of the options given which one is more likely?

He is weak not eating for forty days and his mind is delirious...After he has been tempted to the point of collapse the angels come to minister unto him.

Christians think Jesus and rebel angel are talking about stones into bread LOL - ridiculous!

F2F

 

[marks]

No problem....very few Christians like to challenge their understanding of this subject which is why so many are decieved. I just finished a discussion with aunty Jane and she could not defend her beliefs at all and walked away.

Yes, that's was why I initially jumped in here, I saw some of the arguments. However, like I said, it wasn't to talk about, maybe this, and maybe that, and some say this and some say that, but I know it not what you think.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Are you saying here that Jesus had a "carnal mind" that desired evil?

Much love!

He had a will of his own - if you don't beleive that you will need to take it up with him when he comes! "not my will, but thine be done!"

 

[face2face]

@marks without that will of his own the temptations are a puppet show! I understand the consequences of such a belief on the trinity etc...but hey - when you introduce a false teaching it affects many other core doctrines.

F2F

 

[marks]

Of the options given which one is more likely?

I think that just as the angels came to minister to Him, that the devil left Him, exactly as the passage reads. If you think me foolish to believe what Matthew wrote, well, I find no reason not to.

Jesus multiplied bread and fish to feed others, and did not turn stones to bread to feed Himself. What do you find ridiculous about that? Do you believe that Jesus did miracles like the fish and loaves, walking on water, things like that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

@marks without that will of his own the temptations are a puppet show!

Will of His Own? Or "carnal mind that desires sin"? These are very very different.

I understand the consequences of such a belief on the trinity etc...but hey -

And, we aren't discussing Trinity here.

@marks without that will of his own the temptations are a puppet show!

If you think this means that Jesus had a part inside that desired evil things you attribute sin to Him. I personally do not. The desire for evil things is itself sin.

Much love!

 

[marks]

He had a will of his own - if you don't beleive that you will need to take it up with him when he comes! "not my will, but thine be done!"

He perfectly submitted His Own will to the Father specifically not having that corrupted flesh as we have. He was made just like us except without sin.

That one submit's their will to another does not actually mean that they had something wrong with their own will. We do, that's certain!

So there wasn't some inner voice urging Him to sin. The devil coaxed Jesus to sin, but Jesus did not have the evil desires for those things the devil was tempting Him with. The greatest temptation of all, I would say, was the cross, and even then He showed His love and forgiveness, because that is His heart.

Much love!