Berean
Active Member
While I agree with your premise, not all scholars agree that Jesus is wisdom personified in Proverbs 8.
A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses
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Berean
Active Member
Wouldn't it be better to go right to the source, rather than go to an outside source?Christadelphians
The Truth about the Devil - Christadelphians
The Truth about the Devil More than 100 years ago these lines were written (by an unknown author) to accompany a drawing of “His Satanic Majesty”: “This is he, with horns and hoof, The parsons call the devil; They tell us he lives in a sultry place Where ghosts and imps all revel. They saybibletruth.net.au
The Origins of the Christadelphian view of the devil.
This paper contains a comprehensive, and wide ranging analysis of the true origins of the 'internal devil' theory - which the Christadelphians eventually came to adopt as a fixed dogma in 1864. Reasons are adduced as to why the 'internalwww.academia.edu
Christadelphian History, Beliefs & Practices | Study.com
Discover the Christadelphian faith and understand its origins and history. Learn about important Christadelphian beliefs and review their different...study.com
What is Christadelphianism, and what do Christadelphians believe? | GotQuestions.org
What is Christadelphianism, and what do Christadelphians believe? What are the core beliefs of Christadelphianism? Who was the founder of Christadelphianism?www.gotquestions.org
What Do Christadelphians Believe and Practice?
Christadelphian beliefs depart from orthodox Christian doctrine in several areas. Learn the group's unique teachings about Jesus and more.www.learnreligions.com
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Strangely, the devil has been in the background for most of the OT.....right from Genesis in fact. In God’s address to the serpent, he was talking to “that old serpent”, identified there in Rev 12:9 as “the devil and satan”….
He was spoken about when he was exposed as God’s “adversary”……at times when he and his angels interfered in mankind’s affairs…..such as in the flood of Noah’s day, when angels materialized and cohabited with human women, producing a hybrid race of freakish humanoids who were of extraordinary size and strength, coupled with a violent disposition and the ability to have their way because, who was going to argue with these grizzly giants? God dealt with them by eliminating all the wicked from existence in a global flood, and in so doing, sending their errant fathers back to the spirit realm where they remain restrained from materialising ever again.
Also in the case of Job, satan presented himself as God’s “adversary” and therefore the adversary of all who faithfully worship Yahweh in truth. He was permitted to afflict Job, but he had to do so within the parameters set by God for each test. It was not God who afflicted Job...it was the devil....with God’s permission and under his supervision.
Judas too was said to be a faithful servant of God and a follower of Jesus Christ, chosen to be an apostle. But he was a thief at heart and as treasurer for the group, he had been stealing money from them.
It is said that “satan entered into Judas” and he committed blasphemy and a betrayal that was unforgivable. He had partaken of the holy spirit by performing miracles “in Jesus’ name”....and had now betrayed his master and forfeited his right to inherit the kingdom as one of the foundation stones.
Without the devil rebelling in the garden, we have no basis for any of the beliefs that the Bible promotes, and no reason for Jesus to come as redeemer. The children of God, both in heaven and on earth, have the gift of free will, and it is the abuse of free will, firstly on the part of the angel who became satan the devil, and secondly through his temptations of the first humans who disobeyed the only command that carried the death penalty....leading to the death of all humans descended from them. (Rom 5:12)
God did not create defective children, but free will meant that they could choose to become disobedient, (for whatever reason) and the fact that the penalty was made clear before the fact...meant that they had no excuse. Neither have we.....we are all loaded down with sinful inclinations as a result of our sinful inheritance, but it is the actions we choose that make us sinners. (James 1:13-15)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Seems to me that all the "questions" for JW - after 86 pages - have been fully answered.
Berean
Active Member
I prefer scripture over so-called scholars
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Oh? Then why this appeal to authority?
When is universal agreement required other than on a jury? In addition @Aunty Jane did not even assert that Proverbs was personifying Jesus as wisdom. Seems like a Strawman to me.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
We will come and make our abode with him . the SPIRIT is not a created thing sent to us .I admire your zeal for the Bible, Amigo....and I agree with much of what you have said here.....but the fundamental truth of God’s word involves the very nature of Yahweh himself. How HE presented himself in the Scriptures.
Jesus said we must “know” the one he called “the only true God” AND “the one he sent”. This involves getting a firm grasp on who God is.....who Jesus is.....and understanding why their relationship is one of “Father and son”....a sonship that began before all other creation....he being the “firstborn of ALL creation”. (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14)
Also why this relationship in most instances (as stated in the Bible) rarely mentions the holy spirit as part of that relationship. (John 17:3; 1 Cor 8:5-6) The holy spirit is not a person, but the administration of God’s power in all its manifestations.
Unless we have a sound understanding of these things, there is nothing that we build on false reasoning that will stand......if the foundation is faulty, then given the judgment to come....everything built on that faulty foundation will collapse.....as the Bible says it must.
The judgment on the dragon is fast approaching and he is to be hurled into an abyss with his henchmen for 1000 years whilst God’s Kingdom sets about the task of repairing all that was damaged as a result of satan’s rebellion. (Rev 20:1-3) This will bring back all that we lost, and redeemed mankind will finally fulfill their destiny as their life will become what God first purposed for them.
Rev 21:2-4 will see its fulfilment....
“ I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
We long for the day......
The word is not created . JESUS IS , GOD IS , The SPIRIT IS . its all one essence my dear friend .
How did GOD create the world and worlds and all things .
HE SPOKE . and it was . HE said and it was . WHO YA THINK and WHY YA think it says
GOD created all things THROUGH who ..............................and who created . it even names JESUS as the creator .
GOD did not say , LET THERE BE JESUS and then say OKAY WORD
HE SIMPLY SPOKE and it was . JESUS IS HIS OWN ESSENCE . and that be a fact . JESUS , WAS NOT CREATED .
THE WORD was not created . THE WORD did become flesh . and its about high time
we pay JESUS the respect and honor due to him . GOD shares HIS GLORY WITH NONE .
THERE aint two GODS sister . in fact , in fact JESUS IS THE GLORY of GOD .
I will not leave you comfortless , I WILL COME UNTO YOU .
a few lines earlier HE said The comforter will come unto you .
And try reading romans . Paul even says THE SPIRIT OF GOD
and follows it with the SPIRIT of CHRIST . MEANING THE SAME SPIRIT .
Now i do have a good question for you . You aint following the mindset
that many today do ............are you . the one that says the muslims and others , even athiest somehow have THE SPIRIT OF GOD
somehow KNOW GOD if they just hugging their neighbor and feeding the poor .
CAUSE the last time i checked , JESUS told even the jews who believed not , YOU OF YOUR PAPPY THE DEVIL .
HE Didnt tell them , OH as long as you hugged and loved your neighbor you somehow knew and were of GOD .
DID HE .
I tell us all that anyone and everyone who believes not JESUS IS THE CHRIST , they be in total darkness
are NOT OF GOD , HAVE ZERO HOPE and damnation awaits them .
You arent going down that path of lets have unity and find common ground ..............are you .
Now i ask that , i aint accusing . BUT IF YOU are sitting in a temple
wherein anyone is teaching and focusing on this common ground stuff and talks often and daily
about COMMUNITY STUFF , BUT corrects not sin , says things like USE WORDS only when necessary
says things like we can join with anyone so long as its for a good cause . THEN YOU IN A CHURCH already INFECTED .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
if we want a firm grasp of WHO GOD IS , read the scripsI admire your zeal for the Bible, Amigo....and I agree with much of what you have said here.....but the fundamental truth of God’s word involves the very nature of Yahweh himself. How HE presented himself in the Scriptures.
Jesus said we must “know” the one he called “the only true God” AND “the one he sent”. This involves getting a firm grasp on who God is.....who Jesus is.....and understanding why their relationship is one of “Father and son”....a sonship that began before all other creation....he being the “firstborn of ALL creation”. (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14)
Also why this relationship in most instances (as stated in the Bible) rarely mentions the holy spirit as part of that relationship. (John 17:3; 1 Cor 8:5-6) The holy spirit is not a person, but the administration of God’s power in all its manifestations.
Unless we have a sound understanding of these things, there is nothing that we build on false reasoning that will stand......if the foundation is faulty, then given the judgment to come....everything built on that faulty foundation will collapse.....as the Bible says it must.
The judgment on the dragon is fast approaching and he is to be hurled into an abyss with his henchmen for 1000 years whilst God’s Kingdom sets about the task of repairing all that was damaged as a result of satan’s rebellion. (Rev 20:1-3) This will bring back all that we lost, and redeemed mankind will finally fulfill their destiny as their life will become what God first purposed for them.
Rev 21:2-4 will see its fulfilment....
“ I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
We long for the day......
and learn JESUS THE CHRIST .
He who believes ON ME , believes not on me BUT ON HE WHO SENT ME .
Anyone here wanna try and explain WHY JESUS has just become another prophet amongst
many other prophets like satans right hand man muhammed or budda or any other false religoin .
WHY the heck are so many falling for a false love that has come to unify the lost to be as ONE .
THROUGHOUT all ages many have splintered off and away and now in the last hour
a love of satan has come to UNIFY THEM TO NOW RISE AS ONE
under what all religoins believe to be GOD and LOVE . when really ITS THE DEVIL and a very strong delusion
I would love to talk about that my friend . really i would .
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: wisdom
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: wisdom
Ephesians 3:9-11
King James Version
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
None of those texts says Jesus is wisdom, he does have wisdom as an characteristic of his personhood.
Proverbs 8:22
King James Version
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.The hebrew word does mean possessed.
other ways depending on context:
Translations of possess
verb
לְהַחזִיק
hold, keep, possess, maintain, grip, wield
לִהיוֹת לוֹ
have, possess
לִנְחוֹל
inherit, take possession, possess, seize, receive
לְקַבֵּל בִּירוּשָׁה
inherit, possess
לָרֶשֶׁת
net, inherit, take possession, succeed, possess, cover
לִקְנוֹת
buy, purchase, shop, acquire, own, possess
who do you think translated the King James Bible and other legimate translations?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Berean
Active Member
Well, it sure wasn't King James.
What makes a translation legitimate?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You mean, ‘was satan a fallen angel who acts as a demon’?
He is the original demon....the first of God’s spirit sons to test the waters of free will with the first created beings who had intelligence that he could manipulate to worship him as a god...even unwittingly.
The word in Greek is “daimonion”....meaning....
- a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
- evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil” (Strongs)
If satan and his angels are to be imprisoned for 1000 years, it places satan as the leader of the angels....they could never worship him because they are his equal in power.....but humans were not. In rank they are inferior to God and his son. Even on earth as a man, Jesus had power over the demons by means of God’s spirit.
When the time comes to put satan and his angels into the abyss, they will have no say in the matter...they know where they are going and why. They will pay a high price for their disobedience, as Adam and his wife already have.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
And here we have the very foundation of what was invented by the RCC.....what is this “essence” that “the church” speak about? It is the very nature of God, is it not?
How did the Jews understand the nature of their God, compared to the gods of the nations?
One particular difference was in the number of gods that were revered by the pagans...in contrast, Israel had only one God and he alone had the name Yahweh. (Psalm 83:18 KJV) This not a name that the Jews invented, but a name that God gave himself. If we consult the Jewish Tanakh, we will see his name clearly in the Hebrew text. (YHWH Exodus 3:13-15)
Messiah was a personage of prophesy, not yet in existence (as they understood him to be)......and God’s holy spirit was the exercise of his immense power...carefully controlled as each situation called for it.
e.g. Moses was weighed down by the magnitude of his assignment in keeping the nation in line through their wandering in the wilderness, so it was suggested that he select capable men to help him carry the load.
Numbers 11:16-17..
“Jehovah replied to Moses: “Gather for me 70 men from the elders of Israel, men whom you recognize as elders and officials of the people, and take them to the tent of meeting, and have them stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take away some of the spirit that is on you and place it on them, and they will help you in bearing the burden of the people so that you may not have to bear it alone.”
How does God take “some of the spirit” that was on Moses and place it on the seventy men selected?
This is a clear indication that the holy spirit is not a person.
In other accounts, people were “filled with the holy spirit“ such as at Pentecost when 120 disciples were enabled by God’s spirit to speak in foreign languages that they had never learned. Again this is God’s power in action.
Well, I have to disagree....Jehovah is not a magician.....he is a Creator. He spoke about the things he created and the order in which they were made, and it was Moses who recorded the events as the spirit dictated them to him, since these things took place long before humankind were brought into existence. It was not a detailed scientific explanation, but a simplified story that they could comprehend.
There is an “us” and “our” in the Genesis account, meaning that God was not alone. The scriptures tell us that the son is his “firstborn” “only begotten”......not only that, but he is “firstborn of ALL creation”...making him part of that creation....the very “beginning of God’s creation”, as it says in Revelation 3:12....
Jesus is a divine and unique “son of God” which is what he called himself. Not once did Jesus ever call himself a deity. The meaning of the word “theos” (god) in Greek, does not pertain to Jehovah alone, but is used with regard to Jesus, angels, and even human judges who were acting in God’s behalf. (John 10:31-36) It is not a word that is exclusive to Jehovah, so calling Jesus “theos” doesn’t mean that he is the Almighty. Divine, yes....a deity? No.
Jesus is a “reflection” of his Father....all that his Father is was demonstrated in the character and personality of the son, who never once usurped his Father’s superiority, not even after his return to heaven where he still called the Father “my God”. (Rev 3:12)
Exactly.....there is only one “ho theos” (indicating the only true God, Jehovah) and there is the Word (ho Logos) who was the one who spoke for his God and Father. It was “ho Logos” who became flesh, not “ho theos”. (John 1:14)
Jesus was indeed a glorious spirit creature before coming to earth as a human to offer his life for ours. And he longed to be back there as that glorious being at his Father’s side.
John 17:1-5...
“Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”
This is who Jesus was and is....
No. True Christians are set apart from all false worship, and are sticklers for the truth...the whole truth and nothing but the truth....it makes them a target. (John 15:18-21)
Loving your neighbor is giving him the truth that leads to everlasting life. If he accepts it, you have gained a brother, if not then he will go his way in peace because it is Jesus who will correct him at the judgment. (Matt 7:21-23)
Believing that Jesus is the Christ is only half the battle....you have to follow through on that and imitate the model Jesus set for all his disciples.....we must be preachers of the Kingdom....which is the only hope for mankind. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14)
No.
I came out of that “church” system descended from Roman Catholicism decades ago, and I have never looked back. Those in that system tolerate the wrongdoers and never discipline them, which is unloving since God will reject those who fail to repent of their sins. The pastors are afraid to speak up because they will lose what little they have remaining of their flock and that means no money in the coffers.....it’s not hard to see why they remain silent.
Jesus taught us to take care of our own, so that should mean that there are no starving or destitute people among those who are your brothers and sisters. I am grateful to belong to such a brotherhood.
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