A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Wrangler]

I'm interested in respectful discussion, with valid things being said.

Valid things ARE being said. You’re just in denial of it. You don’t have eyes to see or ears to hear.

I'm saying these things to you so that you may take it to heart and grow.

There it is again! That smug arrogance that others benefit from your inherent awesomeness while you are incapable of humbly benefitting from what us miscreants say so that YOU may take it to heart and grow.

Such double standards wrapped in a signature ‘much love’ irony.

 

[Wrangler]

I'd rather not see Marks wounded by these chats, but rather respond honestly to the text.

All of us would.

True, the "feeling" of the heat may be painful causing one to leave, but stay and test the integrity of your own work!

The pain is from the walls Marks puts up to the truth of Scripture. Therefore, the fight is not logical but psychological.

This thread has deviated wildly from “questions” for JW. The clinging to Thomas’ exclamation is amazing.

 

[face2face]

All of us would.

The pain is from the walls Marks puts up to the truth of Scripture. Therefore, the fight is not logical but psychological.

This thread has deviated wildly from “questions” for JW. The clinging to Thomas’ exclamation is amazing.

I'm a late comer to the conversation. In other threads I am constantly trying to get believers to examine the text openly and honestly, but it appears Marks and now Jay have retired hurt. We can open the door, even provide a little scenery, set the table and provide a little food - cant make them eat.
F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have to disagree that Thomas is just speaking out of shock, akin to saying “Oh my God!”

If you had read my post, you would see the biblical explanation for my response. Thomas was not saying “Oh my God” as an expression akin to what we might say today……but as an acknowledgment that it was indeed his Lord Jesus….it was a shocked response however, since it changed his unbelief.

Thomas had just seen his Lord who was publicly put to death in the most agonizing way…..tortured, beaten and hung up to public shame…..and yet here he was, showing Thomas the evidence of his resurrection.

Now ask yourself an important question…..if Jesus and his apostles could use God’s spirit to heal all sicknesses and deformities…why would he resurrect his precious son with the gaping wounds inflicted by wicked men whom Jesus denounced as those deserving “the judgment of Gehenna”?

Why was it it that Jesus ”appeared” to his disciples, but on only two such occasions did he appear with the wounds of his execution?…at other times his physical condition was not mentioned and his appearance was like that of any other….in fact he was not often even recognized……on one occasion, he “appeared” in a locked room, and when he broke bread with them at a meal, and they recognized him, he simply vanished from their sight. Was Jesus raised as a wounded man, or as a spirit who could materialize flesh, as angels had done in the past? He did not spend all his time with his apostles as he had done in the previous three and a half years….so where did he go during the 40 days he remained on earth after his resurrection?

Thomas had just seen his Lord who was put to death…..found guilty of blasphemy, and tortured, beaten and hung up…..and yet here he was, showing Thomas the evidence of his resurrection in the only way that Jews understood resurrection prior to Pentecost. This how all resurrections had been performed until then….including the raising of Lazarus.....

Jesus could appear and disappear……so was he raised as a human of flesh? Peter tells that he was raised “in the spirit” (1 Pet 3:18)….in spirit form, so as to return to heaven. Flesh and blood cannot exist there.

English speakers might use that type of phrase to express shock, but in first-century Jewish society, that kind of careless uttering of God’s name would never happen.

For a fact, that may well be correct, but calling a human “god” (theos) is not uttering his name since “God“ (like “Lord”) is a title, it is not God’s name because the Jews by that time had ceased uttering it.
God has only one name…”Yahweh”…”Jehovah” in English. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

Yahweh was the singular “God” of the Jews (Deut 6:4) and he had made his name known to them almost 7000 times in their scripture….if he had NOT wanted his name to be used, then he would have said so…he never did…..in fact he told them that his name was to be mentioned throughout their generations….always with due reverence of course……like the Bible writers did.

 

[face2face]

@marks @Wrangler @RedFan @Jay Ross @Aunty Jane

Something of value to take away from this discussion is a Bible principle which has been proven time and time again, both in the Word of God and in this forum.

Jesus did it here: To his disciples he declared: "beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself (Lk 24:27)

Stephen expounded here: Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. Acts 7:54

Phillip did it here: Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus Acts 8:35.

Three examples, 2 positive and 1 negative. (there are many more!)

If one can accurately expound truth in a forthright manner, how joyful is it to discover your audience has "one mind", and a willingness to receive and act upon the message being conveyed? Even more so, those who go away and search the Scripture to find if these things are so, and come back with joy in their hearts having received of the Lord?

However,

We have present, the disinterested, those who doubt and flee to what is known and comfortable! Some listen and are polite, but rather than attempting to undermine their reasoning, walk away, retreat as it were into the background having not given, or received. Others make a show of trying only to retreat into what is known.

Then, on the rarest occasions you have someone who like Phillip asked the question "and said, Do you understand?"

In other words "Have you intellectually perceived this message and applied it to your heart?"

In every sense of the Word our responsibility is to "understand", which is why when you ask this person a question from the Word, they "grasp the significance of what you are showing them, and they understand how knowledge must influence the entire purpose and way of life, that they might live by faith in accordance with God's will"

Whether its the disciples on the road to Emmaus, or the Ethiopian Eunuch, a thorough clear perception of the Truth is being sought and this person understands the value of such wisdom which is why Jesus, Stephen and Phillip all in one way, or another, ask "Have you understood what you are reading and re-reading?"

Endurance in teaching does not equate to having truth! Just because you can riposte doesn't mean you do so with truth. We all need to be able to ask questions and answer them openly and honestly, otherwise all of us fail the Inspired example. If we cannot do as those faithful have done before us, we have nothing, and are nothing.

The Eunech said "guide me"...he did not insist on his own interpretation of scripture, but was aware of his own limitations. I believe I have seen those limitations here today and I am not suggesting I am the one to guide (though willing on some subjects)!...true teachers of the Word are attested by the Word, contrary to the likes of the Pharisees whom Christ described using this same word as: "Blind leaders of the blind: (Mat. 15:14).

God (Yahweh) will bless those who manifest a correct attitude: "The meek will He guide in judgment, and the meek will He teach His
way" (Psa 25:9).

Apart from this attitude, individuals will never become truly wise in the ways of Yahweh.

F2F

 

[Jay Ross]

@marks @Wrangler @RedFan @Jay Ross @Aunty Jane

Something of value to take away from this discussion is a Bible principle which has been proven time and time again, both in the Word of God and in this forum.

Jesus did it here: To his disciples he declared: "beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself (Lk 24:27)

Stephen expounded here: Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. Acts 7:54

Phillip did it here: Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus Acts 8:35.

Three examples, 2 positive and 1 negative. (there are many more!)

If one can accurately expound truth in a forthright manner, how joyful is it to discover your audience has "one mind", and a willingness to receive and act upon the message being conveyed? Even more so, those who go away and search the Scripture to find if these things are so, and come back with joy in their hearts having received of the Lord?

However,

We have present, the disinterested, those who doubt and flee to what is known and comfortable! Some listen and are polite, but rather than attempting to undermine their reasoning, walk away, retreat as it were into the background having not given, or received. Others make a show of trying only to retreat into what is known.

Then, on the rarest occasions you have someone who like Phillip asked the question "and said, Do you understand?"

In other words "Have you intellectually perceived this message and applied it to your heart?"

In every sense of the Word our responsibility is to "understand", which is why when you ask this person a question from the Word, they "grasp the significance of what you are showing them, and they understand how knowledge must influence the entire purpose and way of life, that they might live by faith in accordance with God's will"

Whether its the disciples on the road to Emmaus, or the Ethiopian Eunuch, a thorough clear perception of the Truth is being sought and this person understands the value of such wisdom which is why Jesus, Stephen and Phillip all in one way, or another, ask "Have you understood what you are reading and re-reading?"

Endurance in teaching does not equate to having truth! Just because you can riposte doesn't mean you do so with truth. We all need to be able to ask questions and answer them openly and honestly, otherwise all of us fail the Inspired example. If we cannot do as those faithful have done before us, we have nothing, and are nothing.

The Eunech said "guide me"...he did not insist on his own interpretation of scripture, but was aware of his own limitations. I believe I have seen those limitations here today and I am not suggesting I am the one to guide (though willing on some subjects)!...true teachers of the Word are attested by the Word, contrary to the likes of the Pharisees whom Christ described using this same word as: "Blind leaders of the blind: (Mat. 15:14).

God (Yahweh) will bless those who manifest a correct attitude: "The meek will He guide in judgment, and the meek will He teach His
way" (Psa 25:9).

Apart from this attitude, individuals will never become truly wise in the ways of Yahweh.

F2F

Whoop-de-doo, why don't you break out the champs now to celebrate your powers of discernment.

 

[face2face]

Whoop-de-doo, why don't you break out the champs now to celebrate your powers of discernment.

Its an ignorant spirit this one Jay! - not only do your fail to show discernment you whoop all over it!

 

[Jay Ross]

Its an ignorant spirit this one Jay! - not only do your fail to show discernment you whoop all over it!

I am not saying anything. I am innocent of your failures in comprehension of what I had conveyed. It just could be the sin of arrogance on your part.

I believe that God encouraged the saints to humble themselves and to repent before he would heal their land/earth.

 

[Jack]

The Pharisees said the same of their Holy Books.

So quote some Scripture. Do you know any? I have plenty.

 

[Jack]

@marks
@Jack
@Wrangler

If you were totally honest with the text, do you believe Thomas' confession is an acknowledgment that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead, rather than a declaration that Jesus is "God the Son"?

And if we were in doubt of this, do you believe Thomas, a Jew, used a mode of expression common to the Old Testament in which accredited representatives of God are referred to as "God".

Angels are called "God" in the following passages: Gen 16:7; Genesis 13; 22:8, 11, 15, 16; Exodus. 23:20, 21.

Moses is referred to as a "god" to Pharaoh in Exod 7:1, "god" is translated from the Heb. "elohim"

Put that to one side for the moment.

What about the context? Earlier in chapter 20, Jesus told Mary, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God." John 20:17.

Can you see the problem here?

Since Jesus was to ascend to his God, then clearly he was not himself "Very God"

The confusion is not in Christ's teaching or in the revelation of God through His Word, its what we attach to that Word which is where error is found. In no way can a Trinitarian hang all the formulated dogma off Thomas' words, to do so is to change the Word of God into a lie.

F2F

It's your opinions against Thomas, Peter, John and Paul, Jesus's own disciples He taught in person!

 

[RedFan]

Something of value to take away from this discussion is a Bible principle which has been proven time and time again, both in the Word of God and in this forum

I must be having a senior moment here, because try as I may I cannot distill a "Bible principle" -- on any reasonable definition of that phrase -- from what you've posted. Would you mind just stating in a sentence the "Bible principle" you are espousing as proven by your quotes?

 

[Wrangler]

I have to disagree that Thomas is just speaking out of shock, akin to saying “Oh my God!” English speakers might use that type of phrase to express shock, but in first-century Jewish society, that kind of careless uttering of God’s name would never happen.

God's name is YHWH - not "God." The silliness continues.

 

[Wrangler]

I am not saying anything.

A self-evident falsehood.

 

[Runningman]

God who does love us gave us lots of warnings and we would be wise to heed them .
starting with be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers .
I notice you said its only the RCC that seems to be embracing that , rick warren did too .
and he was not alone . You see when the church starts doing exactly what GOD said not too
ITS gonna become unequally yoked and it will fall . THUS we ought not to just run to UNITY with a harlot my friend .
Yet the churches of today are and have been doing that . IS it any wonder they are headed more and more that way now my friend .
This deceptoin to unify is gonna UNDO all who unify under it . Soon
we will see why as they work hand in hand with all religoins and then begin to say
SEE how they love one another as we do , OH THEY MUST LOVE the same GOD we do . WHAT A DELUSION
but this will and does occur . People get duped very easy my friend . WHEN we go against
what GOD said , DONT EXPECT any GOOD to come out of it .

I don't know what their long term plan is. It may be that they are trying to extend their influence to Muslims because in the Islamic Quran, Jesus the son of Mary is actually stated to be the Messiah, but they don't believe Jesus is the Son of God. It possibly wouldn't take much to sway a lot of Muslims to Christianity. By accepting them as they currently are and validating them (to some extent) it could be part of their goal to convert people. I don't believe they have a publicly stated intent as to what angle they are playing exactly, but it may not be as nefarious as what meets the eye. Or it might be!

Muslims do the same things to Christians. There is a whole intricate argument they sometimes use in which they claim Jesus was a Muslim. If anything, it only muddies the waters, confuses, and misleads people which is a common tactic when people are trying to discredit ideas they don't agree with.

In any case, how we associate with non-believers is nuanced. Case in point, what kind of people was Jesus hanging out with? He was hanging out with the sinners and trying to lead them out of darkness, but not so much that he wouldn't befriend them. He ate with them, talked with them, and maybe even washed their feet. While on the one hand we should not be unequally yoked, we can actually draw near to non-believers to some extent. How else can we love them the way Jesus did? Just something to consider.

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't know what their long term plan is. It may be that they are trying to extend their influence to Muslims because in the Islamic Quran, Jesus the son of Mary is actually stated to be the Messiah, but they don't believe Jesus is the Son of God. It possibly wouldn't take much to sway a lot of Muslims to Christianity. By accepting them as they currently are and validating them (to some extent) it could be part of their goal to convert people. I don't believe they have a publicly stated intent as to what angle they are playing exactly, but it may not be as nefarious as what meets the eye. Or it might be!

Muslims do the same things to Christians. There is a whole intricate argument they sometimes use in which they claim Jesus was a Muslim. If anything, it only muddies the waters, confuses, and misleads people which is a common tactic when people are trying to discredit ideas they don't agree with.

In any case, how we associate with non-believers is nuanced. Case in point, what kind of people was Jesus hanging out with? He was hanging out with the sinners and trying to lead them out of darkness, but not so much that he wouldn't befriend them. He ate with them, talked with them, and maybe even washed their feet. While on the one hand we should not be unequally yoked, we can actually draw near to non-believers to some extent. How else can we love them the way Jesus did? Just something to consider.

those same sinners BELIEVED IN HIM . JESUS came to the lost . the problem was the pharisees and others
did not seem themselves as lost nor as sinners .
WHEN JESUS so called hung around sinners , DID HE NOT CORRECT ERROR . YES HE DID .
HE DIdnt just sit around and talk about wordly crap and try and find common ground .
WE are being lied too my friend .
WE can go , if invited , but WHEN WE GO , WE DO as JESUS DID .
WE do not laugh at their jokes , we dont approve of nor honor their sin .
AND IF SIN or error is seen , THEN WE as did JESUS and later as did the apostels , WE CORRECT IT
SOMETHING this generation FORGOT TO TELL US .
AND something else this generation and its fake love forgot to tell us
IF ANY WHO CLAIMS JESUS , IS IN SIN , WE DONT EVEN EAT WITH SUCH A ONE . now i ;know that sounds like hate speech
BUT IT WAS THE PATTERN OF THE EARLY CHURCH .
and if we take note , EVEN WHEN PAUL saw all that IDOLARTY , HE SPOKE AGAINST IT .
HE DIDNT just say or try and get along and find common ground , HE EXPOSED IT .
IF we take note of peter , of stephen , of paul and others , WE SEE THE SAME THING .
DID THEY GO INTO every jewish synagogue to try and find common ground . HELL NO .
THEY WENT IN TO PREACH JESUS CHRIST .
DID they find fault with them . YES THEY DID . PETER and stephen , and paul , REBUKED THEM BIG TIME .
THE pattern of evangliszing HAS BEEN CHANGED and its not gonna save squat .
IT allows SIN upon them . We have been taught by the wrong men my friend .
WE have been lied too . BUT , BUT the truth in the scrips LIES NOT . IT is a good reminder
as to HOW they DID THINGS . so i suggest we all get a nose full of some bible and stay in the bible too .

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't know what their long term plan is. It may be that they are trying to extend their influence to Muslims because in the Islamic Quran, Jesus the son of Mary is actually stated to be the Messiah, but they don't believe Jesus is the Son of God. It possibly wouldn't take much to sway a lot of Muslims to Christianity. By accepting them as they currently are and validating them (to some extent) it could be part of their goal to convert people. I don't believe they have a publicly stated intent as to what angle they are playing exactly, but it may not be as nefarious as what meets the eye. Or it might be!

Muslims do the same things to Christians. There is a whole intricate argument they sometimes use in which they claim Jesus was a Muslim. If anything, it only muddies the waters, confuses, and misleads people which is a common tactic when people are trying to discredit ideas they don't agree with.

In any case, how we associate with non-believers is nuanced. Case in point, what kind of people was Jesus hanging out with? He was hanging out with the sinners and trying to lead them out of darkness, but not so much that he wouldn't befriend them. He ate with them, talked with them, and maybe even washed their feet. While on the one hand we should not be unequally yoked, we can actually draw near to non-believers to some extent. How else can we love them the way Jesus did? Just something to consider.

can a man win a muslim to GOD , TO CHRIST , by pleasing them . NO HE CANT .
The reason why , the real reason why they do so
IS NOT TO WIN THEM TO CHRIST , though they believe it will , ITS TO ATTAIN POWER and CONTROL over them all .
over every religoin . DEEP DOWN they dont care one bit about their souls , THEY CARE ONLY ABOUT
power and control . HEY THE MORE YOU PANDER TOO the more you can bring in and that means what , MORE MONEY .
ITS ALL ABOUT THE LOVE OF MONEY , about power and prestige , about being seen as something great and wonderful .
THEY DONT care one bit about you , about me , or about anyone .
THEY care about their survival in this world . THEY ARE HIRELINGS . they have made the church
into a business that best profits THEM and NOT THE SHEEP . now this is a fact .
AND It breaks my heart to see it , BUT EXPOSE IT I MUST .

 

[marks]

True, the "feeling" of the heat may be painful causing one to leave, but stay and test the integrity of your own work!

You should listen sometimes, it will help you to know what others are truly saying. One more time. I'm good with discussing the Bible. That's what I'm here for. But I have standards for discussion, and I'm not interested in being your topic. Now you can go on and on until the cows come home that I'm some kind of snowflake or something, if you really feel the need to fool yourself, or try to save your face to others.

Life's too short for this nonsense, and there are others who don't act this way. So I'm more interested in discussing things with them, in a direct and mature way.

Sorry it's not working out!

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

You should listen sometimes, it will help you to know what others are truly saying. One more time. I'm good with discussing the Bible. that's what I'm here for. But I have standards for discussion, and I'm not interested in being your topic. Now you can go on an on until the cows come home that I'm some kind of snowflake or something, if you really feel the need to fool yourself, or try to save your face to others.

Life's too short for this nonsenes, and there are others who don't act this way. So I'm more interested in discussing things with them, in a direct and mature way.

Sorry it's not working out!

Much love!

if i went about to please men in order to win men to CHRIST . WOULD I REALLY have been the servant of CHRIST .
the answer to that question is in the bible and paul said it too .
so my question is this . WHY are so many pandering to gays , to muslims and other religoins
in order to so call win them to CHRIST . WHY are so many trying so hard to please man to WIN MAN .
WE GOTTY PROBLEMS IN THE HOUSE . seeker friendly WHICH quickly has led to all inclusive
has been all about PLEASING MEN . but wow NOT AT ALL about that WHICH PLEASES GOD . see the problem
with todays evangelism . IT IS A MAN PLEASER , NOT A GOD PLEASE and thus
while it will win an untold number of souls , IT WONT BE WINNING THEM TO GOD OR HIS CHRIST
rather it wins them to the god who pleases them and accepts their sins . THERE BE ONLY one god i know that would
dare do such a thing , HE be called the devil and he is one slick and very wise creature indeed .
but thanks be to GOD , i seem to notice the lambs DONT BUY INTO HIS JUNK . FOR JESUS HAS THE LAMBS .

 

[amigo de christo]

God's name is YHWH - not "God." The silliness continues.

and who made manifest the name of GOD . it sure as heck aint the muslims or any other relgion .
ITS JESUS THE CHRIST , not jesus the prophet .
You are so concerned with many things and yet you clamor and hold to things like the abraham peace accords .
WHO , WHO is the ONE WHO MADE MANIFEST THE NAME OF GOD . JESUS DID .
all other religoins BE false , even unbelieving jews are still of satan . a fact which you NO LONGER BELEIVE .
I SEEN what you say about me and etc when men like me come to warn
that all other religoins are not of GOD , but that they rather must repent and beleive ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
HEY wrangler , dont give me the same ol line pope francis and scores of others do
DONT try and convince me that just cause the muslims claim abraham or moses that means they serve the same
GOD as do a true christain .
CAUSE the unbeliving jews TOLD THIS TO JESUS . WE HAVE ONE FATHER , ONE GOD
WE are MOSES desciples , we are of abraham .
HE SAID , YOU OF YOUR DADDY THE DEVIL .
YOU see , had anyone truly learned of GOD , of the law of the prophets , of abraham of moses
GUESS WHO THEY WOULD HAVE BELEIVED was THE SON OF GOD the CHRIST OF GOD . JESUS THE CHRIST .
THIS DO NOT THE MUSLIMS , and this DO NOT ANYONE WHO BELIEVES NOT ON HIM . facts are facts
TRUTH IS TRUTH wrangler . YOU all been sold a rotted bill of goods
about a love that came NOT OF GOD , but of the world . and it wont be saving squat the didly doo either .
AND on the DAY OF THE LORD , too little too late MANY are gonna realize that fact too .
ONLY THEN ITS TOO LITTEL and TOO LATE . better we stick to preaching the dire need to BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
rathern than spouting a false hope , a false love about how other religoins etc etc etc . HURRY NOW , BIBLE TIME .

 

[Wrangler]

You should listen sometimes, it will help you to know what others are truly saying.

not interested in being your topic.

Delicious irony.