A QUESTION OF BALANCE

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Choir Loft
Apr 2, 2009
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A QUESTION OF BALANCE
Mercy vs. Justice

Part 1 - mercy

Early one morning a popular rabbi came to the temple to teach, and it didn't take long for a crowd to gather. Everyone wanted to hear his words because the man always spoke as though he knew exactly what he was talking about. He never speculated about anything. His firm gentle tone and his statements that God was kind and forgiving endeared him to everyone who heard him speak. Well, almost everyone.

He was controversial after all, and there were some who made currency on religious vengence. No one ever knew when some pompous priest or one of their scribblers might show up to spoil the fun. If anyone was expecting an intellectual dual that day, they weren't disappointed. Sure enough, just as the rabbi sat down, a few religious parasites appeared. Shoving their way through the crowd with a young woman in tow, they forced their way between some who were comfortably seated and clusters of friends who had just arrived. Anger and fury twisted their faces into inhuman loathing as they heaved the girl onto the ground next to the rabbi. Like a pack of snarling dogs they growled the reasons for their intrusion.

"Master, this woman was seized in adultery, in the very act."

A hush fell upon the crowd. The rabbi, who had been gazing at the ground, did not look up or otherwise acknowledge their arrival. Feeling somewhat nonplussed at the rabbis refusal to recognize them, the accusers anxiously searched one another's faces, seeking another way to introduce their accusation. The eldest stepped up and dramatically cleared his throat.

"The law commands us to stone such. What do you say about her?"

He said it, of course, because this was the perfect hypothetical situation. The whole scene was created in hopes that the rabbi could be trapped in his own words, thereby restoring their position of religious authority in the eyes of those present. Long moments of awkward silence hung over the assembly until at last the rabbi stood to his feet and gave his answer.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

The old man, who had announced the legal punishment, was the first to leave. Shortly thereafter he was followed by the rest of the woman's accusers.(1)

So the woman lived, because the community was too corrupt to protect itself from disorder.

Part 2 - justice

Another rabbi. A different city, with oceans of time between the two. He goes to her and stops the mob, as in the first story.

"Which of you is without sin?" he asks, "Let him cast the first stone."

The people are abashed, and they forget their unity of purpose in the memory of their own individual sins. As they open their hands and let the stones fall to the ground, the rabbi picks up one of the fallen stones, lifts it high over the woman's head, and throws it straight down with all his might. It crushes her skull and dashes her brains onto the cobblestones.

"Nor am I without sin," he says to the people. "But if we allow only perfect people to enforce the law, the law will soon be dead, and our city with it."

So the woman died because her community was too rigid to endure her deviance.

The famous version of this story is noteworthy because it is so startingly rare in our experience. Most communities lurch between decay and rigor mortis, and when they veer too far, they die. Only one rabbi dared to expect of us such a perfect balance that we could preserve the law and still forgive the deviation. So, of course, we killed him. (2)

Our mental concept of God is like that, fully merciful or fully just. None get the balance right and in that we do err. So some of us declare that God is terribly just, and will vacate from the earth all who are His favorites, before the Almighty blasts the planet to cinders. Others of us fill our minds with marshmellow madness, worship mercy and deny justice completely. The Lord will save all, they say, and they live upon the earth as though there were no God or justice at all. The remainder cater to the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life, denying the party will ever end or that anyone will ever have to pay the bill.

So the nation dies because its people are too corrupt or too spoiled to protect themselves from disorder, because we are too proud to ask the Almighty for help, or perhaps because we just don't give a damn.

that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
-----------
(1) from the gospel of St. John chapter 8 verses 2 thru 9
(2) from SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD by Orson Scott Card, chapter 16 paragraphs 5 thru 11
 

veteran

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Christian brethren should not be taught ignorance about the administering of God's laws in Christian society. That's what that is with trying to use Jesus' telling the Pharisee who was without sin to cast the first stone.

Though the penalty for adultery is not unto death today, not every sin was punishable by the death penalty in Old Covenant times either.


I Jn 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
(KJV)

That's why today there exists different penalties between 1st to 3rd degree murder. Manslaughter is treated like murder today; it was not punishable by death in Old Covenant times, nor is it today, simply because it means someone killed accidently, like a drunk driver, bar fight accident, etc. But proven premediated murder is punishable by death in many states today, and should be, just as it was in Old Covenant times.

Spittin' on the sidewalk is against the law in many states and city ordinances, but it's obvious thats a misdemeanor, not an imprisonable offence.

So if one is called to serve jury duty in an adultery case, and they committed adultery themselves, they should admit that and be removed from judging that kind of case. But not with other criminal offenses like murder. As an American citizen, it is our civic duty to serve on jury duty when called. And make no mistake, when we become part of a jury, we are... judging offences per the law with coming to a guilty or not guilty decision.
 

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Choir Loft
Apr 2, 2009
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Christian brethren should not be taught ignorance about the administering of God's laws in Christian society. That's what that is with trying to use Jesus' telling the Pharisee who was without sin to cast the first stone.

I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make. You digressed too much for me to 'get it'. I don't see what spitting on the sidewalk has to do with a corrupt society. Here are the major points you made that I don't understand;

1. America isn't a Christian society, not by a long shot. If fact, I know of no nation on the planet that is. Once upon a time Europe was, but not any more. They are completely secularized. For all practical purposes, the United States hasn't been a 'Christian' society since before the French and Indian wars. Even then a historian can argue to the contrary. There is no such thing as Christian law in America today. There was once a Christian basis for much of criminal and civil law, but its long gone.(1) The earliest Christian communities were communist in nature.

There was and presently is a sort of group fantasy of what America was like and what America is and what the whole thing stands for. That's generally a white man's day dream as it has no basis in fact. Unfortunately white folks still think it was true, still think it is true, and will generally fight to the death to defend an idea that doesn't exist and never did exist in fact.

What is now in place as far as law and secular society is concerned is a type of relativism. There is no right vs. wrong. There is only right vs. not-right.

I do recognize that there are parts of the population that hold dearly to Christian values, however those pockets of morality and holy spirituality are shrinking fast. That, in fact, is the essence of my initial post. The bulk of the general population in America today is too corrupt to act with anything approaching integrity. I'm not referring to politicians and bankers and military men. Those dogs may be herding the pack toward the edge of a cliff, but the pack was already going in that direction anyway. <-- A point that most Americans do not understand.

2. My second point is linked to the first. Since we do not have a Christian society in America, or anywhere else, we do not see the laws of God being administered anywhere - by man.(2)

Your example of jury duty is puzzling. Adultery is not a violation of religious law.(2) It isn't even a criminal matter and therefore isn't brought to trial. It's a civil matter handled by a judge and generally used as justification for divorce, unless you live in a no-fault state such as Florida (my home state). In my experience people use any excuse they can think of to get out their civic duty anyway.(2)

The interpretations I employed in my initial post were meant to criticize the secularization of society rather than to illustrate the alien mixture of mercy and justice that is peculiar to the character of God. Man does not have it and cannot understand it. Thankfully, we may benefit from it, but at the same time we do not EVER pass it along to our fellows.


(1) Actually its Roman law blended with Christian ideology concerning liberty.
(2) An example of secularization of divine law and corruption of social behavior.
 

veteran

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I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make. You digressed too much for me to 'get it'. I don't see what spitting on the sidewalk has to do with a corrupt society. Here are the major points you made that I don't understand;

1. America isn't a Christian society, not by a long shot. If fact, I know of no nation on the planet that is. Once upon a time Europe was, but not any more. They are completely secularized. For all practical purposes, the United States hasn't been a 'Christian' society since before the French and Indian wars. Even then a historian can argue to the contrary. There is no such thing as Christian law in America today. There was once a Christian basis for much of criminal and civil law, but its long gone.(1) The earliest Christian communities were communist in nature.


I don't know where you got that above paragraph from, but it is NOT something I wrote! You shouldn't attribute that to me at all!


The U.S. is still... a Christian nation. One can still... know that by the existence of Christian Churches all over America! Even the Hispanics that are coming up from Latin and South America are bringing their Christian Churches with them!

If you turn off your liberal NPR, PBS, iPhone media brainwashing, and get out of south Florida to visit rural Florida more, you might learn that.


There's still enough people in America that KNOW it is their duty to serve Jury Duty. Haven't seen anyone in my area trying to get out of serving that, simply because most get PAID by their employers while serving it! Instead what I see, are crooked lawyers trying to prevent the randomness of the jury selection process per the U.S. Constitution.

And there's still enough good judges ruling over the courts that DO recognize and uphold the Constitution of The United States of America (especially in my area of the southeast). There's liberal Leftist-Communist cases against Christians being thrown out of the courts all the time, they just don't often make it through the Liberal-Leftist news media!


My whole point was how you misused the event of the Pharisees bringing a woman caught in adultery to try and pin something on my Lord Jesus Christ. Christ has The Power to forgive her, right then and there. Those Pharisees didn't. But to add to the event with an example of some rabbi from a different city throwing a stone to kill the woman, that's abusing the Scripture, mocking it even!
 

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Choir Loft
Apr 2, 2009
1,635
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63
West Central Florida
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Other Faith
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United States
I don't know where you got that above paragraph from, but it is NOT something I wrote! You shouldn't attribute that to me at all!


The U.S. is still... a Christian nation. One can still... know that by the existence of Christian Churches all over America! Even the Hispanics that are coming up from Latin and South America are bringing their Christian Churches with them!

If you turn off your liberal NPR, PBS, iPhone media brainwashing, and get out of south Florida to visit rural Florida more, you might learn that.


There's still enough people in America that KNOW it is their duty to serve Jury Duty. Haven't seen anyone in my area trying to get out of serving that, simply because most get PAID by their employers while serving it! Instead what I see, are crooked lawyers trying to prevent the randomness of the jury selection process per the U.S. Constitution.

And there's still enough good judges ruling over the courts that DO recognize and uphold the Constitution of The United States of America (especially in my area of the southeast). There's liberal Leftist-Communist cases against Christians being thrown out of the courts all the time, they just don't often make it through the Liberal-Leftist news media!


My whole point was how you misused the event of the Pharisees bringing a woman caught in adultery to try and pin something on my Lord Jesus Christ. Christ has The Power to forgive her, right then and there. Those Pharisees didn't. But to add to the event with an example of some rabbi from a different city throwing a stone to kill the woman, that's abusing the Scripture, mocking it even!

The point of the two stories was to generate a discussion about Biblical applications and social corruption leading to moral paralysis.
It was not intended to mock scripture at all. If that is the interpretation, then it was misread and my intentions misunderstood. Let me rephrase...

The United States is not and never has been a Christian nation. What we did experience historically was a sort of common consensus of opinion(*) regarding something that approached Biblical morality and a Christian expression of religious standards. There was respect for Christianity. It came close at times and at other times wandered far afield. Today, there is very little regard for Christianity at all. What remains is seeping away rapidly.

The western hemisphere was originally settled in part by very devout European Christian communities. These communities brought the arts and sciences, morality and a dedication to the high principles of orderly community as well as how to run it. They brought the love of God with them.

It was also settled and exploited by a much larger group of opportunists. This last group appeared in order to scavenge the land of its wildlife, its resources and its native peoples. They brought disease, bigotry, thievery and murder with them. Slavery was a part of the economic system from the very beginning. Indeed, remnants of it still hides in the shadows of America to this very day. Shall I go on to mention genocide, the governmental policy to murder native Americans and take their land? It was there. All the dirty linen was there. The historical golden land of America is a white man's fantasy. If one wasn't a white anglo-saxon protestant in America, things looked and felt quite a bit different.

Today we have a governmental policy of unending war fostered by periodic invasions of nations whose people have not attacked us. Democratic or Republican leadership does not matter. Both lead in the same direction, a fact that has escaped the majority of Americans. International murder is our lot and military brutality is the method.

The legacy of American history will be the wave of America's future...unless something stops us...unless we let go of the tiger we have by the tail.

I think it's pretty clear to a lot of people that the hand of destiny has written upon the wall of American history. There is a widespread sense of expectancy and dread throughout the land. We could avoid it. There are a tiny number of days left to affect change. Our leaders know that, but are committed to the course of ruin before us. As in the examples I quoted at the head of this thread, our society is too corrupt to do anything about it. Our leaders are throwing the stones and the rest of us are just watching the entertainment.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) "The Great Evangelical Disaster" - Francis Schaeffer
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
The point of the two stories was to generate a discussion about Biblical applications and social corruption leading to moral paralysis.
It was not intended to mock scripture at all. If that is the interpretation, then it was misread and my intentions misunderstood. Let me rephrase...

The United States is not and never has been a Christian nation. What we did experience historically was a sort of common consensus of opinion(*) regarding something that approached Biblical morality and a Christian expression of religious standards. There was respect for Christianity. It came close at times and at other times wandered far afield. Today, there is very little regard for Christianity at all. What remains is seeping away rapidly.

The western hemisphere was originally settled in part by very devout European Christian communities. These communities brought the arts and sciences, morality and a dedication to the high principles of orderly community as well as how to run it. They brought the love of God with them.

It was also settled and exploited by a much larger group of opportunists. This last group appeared in order to scavenge the land of its wildlife, its resources and its native peoples. They brought disease, bigotry, thievery and murder with them. Slavery was a part of the economic system from the very beginning. Indeed, remnants of it still hides in the shadows of America to this very day. Shall I go on to mention genocide, the governmental policy to murder native Americans and take their land? It was there. All the dirty linen was there. The historical golden land of America is a white man's fantasy. If one wasn't a white anglo-saxon protestant in America, things looked and felt quite a bit different.

Today we have a governmental policy of unending war fostered by periodic invasions of nations whose people have not attacked us. Democratic or Republican leadership does not matter. Both lead in the same direction, a fact that has escaped the majority of Americans. International murder is our lot and military brutality is the method.

The legacy of American history will be the wave of America's future...unless something stops us...unless we let go of the tiger we have by the tail.

I think it's pretty clear to a lot of people that the hand of destiny has written upon the wall of American history. There is a widespread sense of expectancy and dread throughout the land. We could avoid it. There are a tiny number of days left to affect change. Our leaders know that, but are committed to the course of ruin before us. As in the examples I quoted at the head of this thread, our society is too corrupt to do anything about it. Our leaders are throwing the stones and the rest of us are just watching the entertainment.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) "The Great Evangelical Disaster" - Francis Schaeffer



The marks of Christianity is in the writings of the founding fathers, and it was even declared in many U.S. State Constitutions. But that's not what makes the United States a Christian Nation. What does is God's people who follow Him through His Son Jesus Christ, and God's Promises to His people per His Holy Writ.

Thus your statement that the U.S. has never been a Christian nation is a falsehood.