A real Christian ?

[wayseer]

The gospel according to Paul has no discrepancies in it when set along side of Matthew, Mark, john, Peter, Jude.
Luke has discrepancies with all of the other accounts of the gospel. Luke and parts of the acts which Luke also copied and wrote in 160 AD are the total of discrepancies in the new testament.

For me Paul is one big discrepancy. He disputed against the leaders of the Church at Jerusalem and anyone that dared to challenge him or his own ideas.

His theology is questionable as is his claim to Apostleship.

He contradicts himself with some consistency - especially with regards the role of women.

And it is questionable just where or how he got Jesus words for the Eucharist.

The Didache, which was written about the same time, does not support Paul's claim that Jesus was the generally accepted as the Christ by other Christian groups.

And I'm interested in how you arrive at a date for Luke at 160 - 100-120 seems to be the general acceptance by most scholars.

 

[dragonfly]

I'm not a great fan of Wikipedia, but the page on Theophilus seems well-researched, placing Luke as contemporary with Paul, which makes sense.

Here it is.

 

[jeremiah1five]

No.

The only kind of Christian is a Biblical Christian. That's the only kind in existence. If ones Christianity is not Biblical, then it is not Christianity.

There is no such thing as an "unbiblical Christian."

A Christian is a "Christ-follower" or "Christ-supporter. A Christian holds to all the writings in the canon of the Bible. The writings of Moses included.
There were Christians in the Old Testament who looked forward to the Promise of God that He would send a "Prophet like unto Moses." A Biblical Christian is one who holds to all 66 books of the Bible. They are the basis of his life, his death, and his resurrection. The Bible is the foundation of all he is to believe concerning this life, and the next. It is the Word of God that tells the Biblical Christian what he is to believe. He does not tell the Word of God what to say.
And there are many that do this.

 

[Grump]

All Scripture is God-breathed.

To deny any of the Pentateuch is to call God either a liar (in that he lies when He speaks to us through His Word) or powerless (in that He cannot preserve His own Scriptures from generation to generation)..

This pretty much sheds light on whether or not the Pentateuch is valid.

 

[jeremiah1five]

All Scripture is God-breathed.

To deny any of the Pentateuch is to call God either a liar (in that he lies when He speaks to us through His Word) or powerless (in that He cannot preserve His own Scriptures from generation to generation)..

This pretty much sheds light on whether or not the Pentateuch is valid.

I like the way you think. That is the correct attitude. It's Biblical.
His Word shall not pass away, despite what people may say.

 

[Elizabeth]

Can anyone be a Christian if they do not believe and/or accept what Moses wrote ? -winc

No. A true Christian is one who accepts all that Christ taught. Jesus Christ made this very clear when He said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mt. 19:17). We know that He was referring to the Ten Commandments because He went on to list some of them.

 

[day]

Why would you believe the end of a story (the writings of the apostles) if you don't believe in the beginning of the story (the writings of Moses)?

 

[Dodo_David]

No. A true Christian is one who accepts all that Christ taught. Jesus Christ made this very clear when He said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mt. 19:17). We know that He was referring to the Ten Commandments because He went on to list some of them.

Actually, Jesus was referring to all of the commandments in the Torah, not just to the ten of the Decalogue.

There are more than ten commandments in the Torah. In Matthew 19:18, Jesus quotes a commandment that is outside of the Decalogue.

 

[Elizabeth]

In Matthew 19:18-19, Jesus quotes a commandment that is outside of the Decalogue.

Which commandment?

 

[Dodo_David]

In Matthew 19:18-19, Jesus quotes a commandment that is outside of the Decalogue.

Which commandment?

Here is Matthew 19:18-19 (ESV):

[SIZE=.75em]18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]19 Honor your father and mother, and,You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[/SIZE]

The commandment "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" is not in the Decalogue.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

.
The laws of Moses were written for the Israelis
We are the Gentile Christians
And we do some strange thing sometimes .... we first come to Jesus as we are ... then the first thing we do is try to apply Jewish law to ourselves only to come back to the cross and start all over again.

The Messianic Jew looks at us with bewilderment .... he comes from life under the law ... finds Christ ... says WHEW ... drops the law and embraces Jesus alone

They think we Western Christians have some weird ideas

I agree.

 

[Elizabeth]

Here is Matthew 19:18-19 (ESV):


The commandment "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" is not in the Decalogue.

That's the new commandment given to us by Jesus Christ in the New Testament (John 13:34).

 

[Dodo_David]

The commandment "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" is not in the Decalogue.

That's the new commandment given to us by Jesus Christ in the New Testament (John 13:34).

Not true. The commandment "you shall love your neighbor as yourself" comes from Leviticus 19:18

 

[dragonfly]

That's the new commandment given to us by Jesus Christ in the New Testament (John 13:34).

Hi Elizabeth,

I think may people actually forget about John 13:35, and John 15:

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

There is quite a difference between the new commandment and 'love your neighbour as yourself'. Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan to exemplify the loving of our neighbours. He added to this that we should love our enemies, and pray for those who curse or 'despitefully use' us. Paul added in Romans 12, that one way to 'heap coals of fire' on their heads, would be by feeding our enemies, and giving them to drink, as well.


By comparison, to exemplify loving one another as He loved us, Jesus spoke about laying down our lives. I think John's first epistle covers this, too, but in a different way.

 

[Giver]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus came to complete the Law, and it is his Word that we need to live.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven.[/SIZE] When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

[SIZE=large](John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The following are some of God’s Words that we have to live.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:17) “Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance[/SIZE].”

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Luke 6:30-35) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you[/SIZE]. Treat others, as you would like them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what thanks can you expect? For even sinners do that much. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.”

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 23: 8-11) “You, however. Must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”[/SIZE]

 

[Elizabeth]

Saint Basil once asked what the mark of love is for our neighbor. He said that it is not to seek what is for our own benefit, but what is for the benefit of the one loved, both in body and soul.

 

[Mungo]

it seems you do not understand like most Catholics I have known - who only ever had a slight interest in the Bible and reading it was even banned and it was on the index and this was later followed by an interest in the NT only - winc

Another Protestant myth.

A friend of mine made an interesting point.

He said that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, but Moses' death is also documented in the first five books.

I've heard that the book of Genesis was written in the last few centuries before Christ.

No. A true Christian is one who accepts all that Christ taught. Jesus Christ made this very clear when He said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mt. 19:17). We know that He was referring to the Ten Commandments because He went on to list some of them.

Jesus was speaking to a Jew under the old Law.

Actually, Jesus was referring to all of the commandments in the Torah, not just to the ten of the Decalogue.

There are more than ten commandments in the Torah. In Matthew 19:18, Jesus quotes a commandment that is outside of the Decalogue.

Which commandment?

When speaking to the young man in Mk 10:19 he also listed 'do not defraud' which is from Lv 19:13

 

[Guestman]

Can anyone be a Christian if they do not believe and/or accept what Moses wrote ? -winc

Jesus established what is required to gain God's favor, quoting Moses words at Deuteronomy 8:3 and telling Satan: "It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”(Matt 4:4) A person cannot gain life everlasting by just reading the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the New Testament), but all of the Bible, "on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth", which must be a part of a true Christian's study and personal application.


The apostle Paul wrote that "all Scripture (not just the Christian Greek Scriptures) is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17) For a person to grow to spiritual maturity, from Genesis to Revelation is to be carefully examined, allowing the entire Bible to develop a person into one who pleases Jehovah God.


For example, when Jesus was found fault with by the Pharisees for his disciples plucking grain from a field while walking through it on the sabbath, he replied: "Have you not read (where ? at 1 Sam 21:1-6) what David did when he and the men with him were hungry ? How he entered into the house of God and they ate the loaves of presentation, something that it was not lawful for him or those with him to eat, but for the priests only ? Or have you not read in the Law (where ? at Num 28:9) that on the Sabbaths the priests in the temple violate the Sabbath and continue guiltless ?"(Matt 12:3-5)


And after his resurrection, he met up with Cleopas and another man, walking with them for a spell, asking what they were discussing among themselves. After having listened to their reasoning that they "were hoping that this man (Jesus) was the one who was going to deliver Israel. Yes, and besides all these things, this is the third day since these things occurred" (Luke 24:21), he then says to them: "O senseless ones and slow of heart to believe all the things the prophets have spoken ! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory ?" And starting with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures."(Luke 24:25-27)


Without the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly referred to as the "Old Testament"), it is impossible to unlock the Christian Greek Scriptures, as well as gaining our Maker's favor, for Proverbs 2 says: "My son, if you accept (all ) my sayings and treasure up (all) my commandments, by making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to discernment; Moreover, if you call out for understanding and raise your voice for discernment; If you keep seeking for it as for silver, and you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures; Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the knowledge of God."(Prov 2:1-5)


One cannot "pick and choose", like a buffet at a restaurant, what parts of the Bible they will follow. Hence, when David wrote that "I will not set anything worthless before my eyes" (Ps 101:3), and then further under inspiration, David wrote: "Jehovah examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one; He hates anyone who loves violence"(Ps 11:5), what do we do with these Scriptural injunctions found in the Hebrew Scriptures ? Go ahead and watch violent videos or movies as well as movies with sexually suggestive overtones ?


When Jesus said at Matthew 5:5 about the "meek inheriting the earth", from where was he quoting ? Psalms 37:11. Thus, no one is "complete" in Jehovah's eyes that rejects the Hebrew Scriptures, but rather they are rejected by God. At 1 Samuel 2, it says that "those honoring me I will honor, but those despising me will be treated with contempt."(1 Sam 2:30) A person despises God if he or she feels no need for the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

A huge amount! It's not just what he wrote of the world's beginnings in Genesis, but the exercise of faith and his relationship with God which is recorded through Exodus - the first Passover, the crossing of the Red Sea, the refining of the Law, the confirming of Israel as a nation for the first time, the design of the Tabernacle, the development of the priesthood - and many key expressions of truth which Paul drew upon in his epistles.

Deuteronomy is full of prophecy, some of which is still being fulfilled today.

The man was awesome! And yet he was only a type of Christ.

Suggest you note that both the priesthood and the law were changed after the crucifixion and ascension of Jesus Christ. Heb. 7:12 These changes had to occur in order to perfect the Way of salvation.

 

[Tex]

To be saved, you do not need any sort of knowledge or any sort of work. The unborn can be saved, and they have done nothing and know pretty close to nothing.

Salvation is a gift from God, based on the gift of faith. It does not depend upon knowledge of what Moses wrote or adherence to the law of Moses. Our "good" works are like bloody rags. Our knowledge is less than primitive. We all fall short of the glory of God, and it is by God's mercy that we are picked up.

It is true that if someone refused to listen to the prophets, they would refuse Someone coming back to life. That is not the same topic. Salvation is not for me to gain, but a gift of the Lord.